"face Judging" In The Show Ring

[Jollygood]

Then there are some show secretaries who book judges who are known to like their dogs..No wonder entries to their shows for certain groups may be down??? People will not waste their money on known biased judges.

I was at a show last week. Everyone on the sideline knew who would win.. Crony and very good friend, when that dog got group, no one was surprised.

You get to which judge(s) are friends with certain people and tend to award those "friends". I do not know what is worse, the people entering under those judges or the judges for not looking at the dogs.

You see some who are wined and dined in gazebos a month or more before the show.

Judges who will not look at any dog but their friend's. I am sorry, I paid my money too. You may not like my dog, but please at least go over it!

It is refreshing to FIND a judge who actually LOOKS at the dog and not the person on the end of the leash.

The worst I ever personally heard while writing one day was one judge saying to their steward" Just a moment while I check the DOL point score, I don't want to embarrass myself by not putting up the winning dog". When on earth has a dog show being judged ONLINE!!

Sorry DOL.. that pointscore is causing people to come ruthless and so bitchy. The "fun" is going out of showing, because some believe the DOL point score the bee all and end all.

[Jollygood]

I am only new to this!!

I have been watching this poll for a number of days, I have been showing for 30 years, I have watched the dog world get very political. I myself am not a judge, and have had great success with breeding a few grand champions.

But for the last few years, I have watched judges do mate rates. I have had other people in my bred have judges hang onto there dogs outside the ring. I have been in for best of breed, and they have had there judge friend stand behind us, so they can point out which one. Now they have something on there cloths to mark themselfs out.

I am sorry to say, it is our judges killing the show world, Its is our judges that will decided our breed standard, not judging to a standard, You can,t tell me they havn,t got a problem, it is in every state, its not all because of the money. take alook in who is in your best of show line ups everyweek, same ol same ol out there week in and out.

But why should i give something away , that i have done over 30 years of hard work, which i love.

But the show world will crumble, if the judges don,t clean up there act. It is already starting to crumble :-(

[Nancyk]

Then there are some show secretaries who book judges who are known to like their dogs..No wonder entries to their shows for certain groups may be down???

Not always.

I am the Show Secretary for the Rylstone Kandos & Dist Kennel Club shows on 23rd & 24th July and my husband is Show Manager on the day. This year marks the 4th year of this clubs shows. Klaus and I do not show dogs at these shows and the only one of our dogs at the Show has been our Stella who pulls a cart for the soft toy competition for children at lunchtime. We (the club) do our best to choose Judges who are confident enough to do their own thing without fear or favour and have a great time doing it. We also have on each day a General Specials Judge who only does general specials, who arrives at or after lunch and has no or little knowledge or what has happened in the groups.

It does seem to be working as our entries are increasing each year - Our first year was around 320 each day and the third 520 each day, this year we are hoping to go over 600 per day.

If you are close enought do consider entering, camping on grounds is available - many with power and lots of varieties of local accommodation.

See you there?

[WreckitWhippet]

Nope, I can guarantee our local booked judges based on who could travel as an interstate couple first and who was available and likely to pull the biggest entry.

[Mystiqview]

I know ALL secretaries don't always book friends. I know of a few instances when it HAS happened. It is actually refreshing to enter a show and know the judge does not play favourites. It is what you SHOULD expect: the best dog on the day no matter who is on the end of the lead.

[Mystiqview]

Ps. I was trying to refrain from naming judge and secretary names.

I showed on the weekend and it was nice to know the judge judges the animal not the handler

[Jumabaar]

I always found it interesting that at a particular show my bitch would do quite well. She is a nice bitch, and has had a few nice wins but I am realistic that my next generation is better. Yet at this particular show she has always done very well. On some level I wonder if someone isn't picking a judge that will necessarily award their dogs based on a face but on their type.

So I guess I am suggesting that they don't pick judges that will automatically award them because they are friends/faces, but because they know they type judges chose and so select them that way......

Either that or its an amazing coincidence

[Bisart Dobes]

Friends & I entered an interstate show this past weekend. First show was on Friday and the judging was quite even and unbiased even though there were no less than 20 All Breeds Judges present.

The next two days of the show were a supreme lesson in you scratch my back & I'll scratch yours. I have never been witness to such obvious politics and people 'working it'. We overheard multiple conversations of judges stating that the next time they were judging in NZ the judge that gave them BIG/BIS would be rewarded equally etc etc - not one of them was even subtle or embarrassed about it even when sprung.

Needless to say I am extremely glad that I had another reason for being in the area and that was actually the reason I entered these shows. I have no doubt that any of us will ever make that trip or support that show again and that means about 26 less dogs entered at all 3 shows - close to a grand less revenue with camping fees & food consumed. I also have no doubt that those who win this way won't care at all but they may when their clubs no longer survive and they have to travel to clubs where they have no influence over the judging panel.

Edited May 16, 2011 by Bisart Dobes

[Darkrai]

I wont enter under a Known Face Judge... but these days the followers will go anywhere to be put up by the Judge O.o

After seeing what some Judges put and the Critiques that some Specialty judges say, the judges that cant be bothered looking at your dog, to busy chatting to people outside the ring while your dog is in the ring, Chatting to the another handler with the same breed while your dog is in the ring... I came to conclusion I couldnt be bothered with showing that much these days, with the increase of show entires and petrol some shows arent just worth going too. I attend more shows these days taking photos for friends and people I know. Or I just enter for the fun of it and just sit ringside with an already marked catalog, thats how predictable some Judges are

Especially after being on a committee and the first thing the Show Manager said "what judges have you done good under" O.O

Wat can you do nothing will change

[Legacee]

If it wins enough I'd say most folk will think its good enough

You will often see a dog that is winning regularly be it because it is a good example of the breed or not siring a number of litters. I often hear from breeders saying that they are going to use so and so cause it is so good and has won so much.

I have seen grand champions that have the wrong movement and yet they continue to be put up.

I am not saying that all judges are face judging but it is starting to get beyond a joke.

I am more than happy to see a dog win consistantly if it is good, but when it is a bad example of the breed it is giving false hopes to the owner/breeder/handler.

It is also interesting to see some of the dogs that are winning consistantly at all breeds can not win at a specialty.

In the past 20 years I have seen a lot of things change in the show world but you have to wonder why there is less and less people showing now than then.

Leanne

Totally agree Leanne.

I have shown for over 25years and love catching up with friends and love showing my dogs. I have had many successes including BIS winners but have become very disheartened with face judging. Some states of aust are worse than others. I often know who is getting the group and sometimes BIS before the show has even happened. The amount of money spent on entering/travelling to shows, conditioning dogs, importing new lines and exhibiting them only to be beaten by a face no matter how good or bad their dog is, has become an expensive joke. Judges are in my opinion some of the worse offenders when showing their own dogs, you put my dog up this week I'll put yours up next week and it goes on and on..........................

[biker girl]

Legacee, I have seen & heard your last sentence over the years too

The worst I think that comes to mind,was several years ago when one lady All Breeds judge stormed out of the ring after BIS judging with the comment "that's the last time I GIVE HIM a best in group"

Funnliy enough I have never entered under her, nor will I either!

[Legacee]

Legacee, I have seen & heard your last sentence over the years too

The worst I think that comes to mind,was several years ago when one lady All Breeds judge stormed out of the ring after BIS judging with the comment "that's the last time I GIVE HIM a best in group"

Funnliy enough I have never entered under her, nor will I either!

Nothing will ever change and it just continues to get worse. Nearly every show it happens....... I have had just about enough of showing because of it and rarely enter under local judges.

[Miranda]

While ther may be some judges out there who go with the 'safe' options, from my own point of view I have found it more productive to subscribe to the way of thinking espoused by Mary Roslin Williams in her book "Reaching for the Stars" when it comes to 'frequent winners'. To quote her on the issue, she talks about 'the second big millstone around the middle-breeder's neck, and that is the ringside, in other words, his fellow middle range competitors'. She goes on to say..

'This is a very big millstone, because the novice listens to others instead of looking to see why the winner went up. the middle-ranger is all too glad to find an excuse for his own lack of top wins, so instead of looking at his dog and also looking at the top dogs, he joins in with the novices and comes in time to subscribe to the idea that 'names' win because they are 'names'. Once he really comes to beleive this he will be a middle-ranger forever, because he will never discover why the good breeders' dogs win.

For many years I have seen promising novices come up into the middle-ranges and have felt hopeful that they would eventually become good breeders and my heart sunk because they have come up and said that very thing, that 'Mrs Blank can win with anything'. As soon as they start thinking that, I have no further hope for them. they have mentally evaded the issue that it takes a better dog to win.'

While I may not always agree with a judges choices, they generally have their reasons for putting up one dog over another - and that reason may not be obvious to those outside the ring who are looking at the dog from a different angle and dont have their hands on them. I am not going to dismiss a judges choice as arbitrary though just because a dog or dogs from a certain kennel wins a lot. There is usually a reason why a person has become a 'face' and even if their dogs would not be my choice, I would rather look and learn from that than dismiss it out of hand as being somehow corrupt or dodgy.

In the end how far you go and what you achieve really is about attitude.

Excellent post espinay2, I agree with everything you say, especially your last sentence

[Shaar]

I am only new to this!!

I have been watching this poll for a number of days, I have been showing for 30 years, I have watched the dog world get very political. I myself am not a judge, and have had great success with breeding a few grand champions.

But for the last few years, I have watched judges do mate rates. I have had other people in my bred have judges hang onto there dogs outside the ring. I have been in for best of breed, and they have had there judge friend stand behind us, so they can point out which one. Now they have something on there cloths to mark themselfs out.

I am sorry to say, it is our judges killing the show world, Its is our judges that will decided our breed standard, not judging to a standard, You can,t tell me they havn,t got a problem, it is in every state, its not all because of the money. take alook in who is in your best of show line ups everyweek, same ol same ol out there week in and out.

But why should i give something away , that i have done over 30 years of hard work, which i love.

But the show world will crumble, if the judges don,t clean up there act. It is already starting to crumble :-(

^This pretty much sums up my feeling as well.

There are some fantastic, honest judges out there. More people need to start acting the same.

I'd be interested if anyone had statistics on numbers of judges 30 years ago as to now.

[quoll]

Face judging does exist, favours returned and so on.... I m sure many of you have also over heard remarks made near the ring as to who would win and why and so they did.

I once saw a judge whilst holding on to the wrist of an exhibitor say don't worry you've got it, and this was in the ring not too discrete.

Face Book is now becoming a big issue, and it's a shame, but i can't see things changing any time soon.

Edited May 19, 2011 by quoll

[Bokezu]

Hey...I agree.............. I do the same, but not every judge is a face judge as the losers would have you believe.

yep ... totally agree with you on that .... many losers will use it as an easy excuse

I also agree, its either "face judging" or the judge is "completley hopeless" only time they don't comment on the judging is when they win.

[oakway]

Hey...I agree.............. I do the same, but not every judge is a face judge as the losers would have you believe.

yep ... totally agree with you on that .... many losers will use it as an easy excuse

I also agree, its either "face judging" or the judge is "completley hopeless" only time they don't comment on the judging is when they win.

That is so true.

[Andisa]

When you are told by someone who's dog just won "unfortunately it was political today" is proof that face judging does happen. Whilst his little girl is young and very nice, in his own words she did not deserve to beat the much nicer older bitch who is well on her way (with limited showing) to her title. Since he is also a judge I have no reason to doubt his comment.

I have also been told that my young pug bitch would be titled easily if someone else was showing her. I am still fairly new to it and will admit I should do more with her, no doubt at all if she was in more experienced hands she would do better. But being told by several others "she would be titled fast with me" or "If she was in (another state) she would be easily titled". I have lost interest in showing her atm, not entered this w/e but will be going just the same. Have filled in a few more entries but not many. I might wait until she has matured a bit more and try again. I have even thought of offering her back to her breeder to be titled since I am often told if she was in the right hands she would do well. Perhaps she would be better off.

A friend has a stunning bitch and is doing quite well with her, she is certainly no beginner to showing, some of the dogs that win over her leaves many on the side line with raised eyebrows.

Oh and while I am having a whinge - why do some judges still put up dogs who are manky or lame - I bet if I was holding their leads they would not be..

It's not always sour grapes - sometimes it is just too obvious...

Edited May 19, 2011 by Andisa

[emery]

When you are told by someone who's dog just won "unfortunately it was political today" is proof that face judging does happen. Whilst his little girl is young and very nice, in his own words she did not deserve to beat the much nicer older bitch who is well on her way (with limited showing) to her title. Since he is also a judge I have no reason to doubt his comment.

I have also been told that my young pug bitch would be titled easily if someone else was showing her. I am still fairly new to it and will admit I should do more with her, no doubt at all if she was in more experienced hands she would do better. But being told by several others "she would be titled fast with me" or "If she was in (another state) she would be easily titled". I have lost interest in showing her atm, not entered this w/e but will be going just the same. Have filled in a few more entries but not many. I might wait until she has matured a bit more and try again. I have even thought of offering her back to her breeder to be titled since I am often told if she was in the right hands she would do well. Perhaps she would be better off.

A friend has a stunning bitch and is doing quite well with her, she is certainly no beginner to showing, some of the dogs that win over her leaves many on the side line with raised eyebrows.

Oh and while I am having a whinge - why do some judges still put up dogs who are manky or lame - I bet if I was holding their leads they would not be..

It's not always sour grapes - sometimes it is just too obvious...

I agree here andisa. when i sent my girl back to her breeder for her mating she did some shows and has come back with 28 points towards her title yet never gets looked at here. i know if i sent her back she would get titled but i want to do it myself i know she is good enough and yes i know her faults. I am sure it has something to do with my handling but we will keep trying.

I got her daughter definate improvement and has beaten her mother at smaller open shows for challenge etc. think we almost understand what the show ring is for now lol. have seen pups come up with a definitive fault glaringly obvious or someone else's dogs all lame all go up over her??? leaves me wondering. Oh well another day another dollar.

You will hear the cheers when we get the points on her for her title and her mother too and we will keep pushing away.

I don't understand how judges put up lame dogs either no matter who is on the end of the lead, or one here rather tubby and has won challenges, well my girl is a little plump this week need to decrease the food intake so in theory we should get challenge i wont count my eggs if you get my drift I enjoy the day out and even in breeds that aren't my own and i know noone i can look at some judges and know who is going up with who is showing that day. I will keep showing as i enjoy the company and the day out and i wont be put off by dishonest judges, there are decent judges who do award what they see fit on the day not hte handler etc

[pebbles]

I'll have a bit of a ramble on about this subject. Been showing dogs for over 50 years, been a foundation member, Secretary, President, committee member, Ag.Soc Secretary for numerous clubs so have got to call many people, including Judges, friends. Over the years I've had some success with dogs which were worthy of the win/s, also been dumped!

There's always been those who are into the 'knows the Judge' etc. complaints and admittedly it does happen but not all that often as some would make out. I've also Judged at Ch level and probably had the same said about my decisions BUT I've always judged the 'dog' that's when you find out who your true friends are - those who are still speaking to you after you haven't done anything with their exhibit! lol. A few years ago I had a top winning Miniature Pinscher, ended up a Gr Ch with 28 BIGs as well as numerous class in show wins. Of course it went around that I 'knew the Judge' even though most were from overseas or interstate, yes, I did know some of the Vic. Judges but was I supposed not to enter? My girl was never advertised in any magazine or promoted in any way, just happened to be an exceptional example of the breed who always took the Judges eye. It got to the stage where no-one would enter against her and if they did, would often scratch on the day. So sportsmanship was well and truly alive. I have always made sure that I take a dog into the ring that was a good example of the breed and I didn't have to hide if I won regardless of who the Judge was. I'm now seeing dogs that I wouldn't have in my yard getting put up BUT when you look along the line it's a lottery and I'm glad I'm not judging any more, feel sorry for some of the Judges, particularly the older ones who have seen better in the past. Talking about breeds here that I've been closely connected with over a lot of years.

Well, I guess that's enough, there's lots of opinions and stories around but so much is just talk and supposition.