"face Judging" In The Show Ring

[oakway]

I am enjoying reading this thread.

So many opinions, and all very interesting.

Yes me to- thanks for starting it poodle fan?!!! Very controversial and VERY valid poll

No............. the poll is what people believe to be correct not what is actual fact.

Edited May 13, 2011 by oakway

[Dellcara]

No............. the poll is what people believe to be correct not what is actual fact.

well ...

It is a FACT that I won't enter shows under judges that I happen to KNOW are face judges.

[oakway]

No............. the poll is what people believe to be correct not what is actual fact.

well ...

It is a FACT that I won't enter shows under judges that I happen to KNOW are face judges.

Hey...I agree.............. I do the same, but not every judge is a face judge as the losers would have you believe.

Polls tell you what people believe to be correct.

I use the polls on this list and always answer what I believe to be correct. Doesn't mean that I AM correct every time.

I always vote for the politician that I believe will be doing the good job. I bet we have bo bo ed there plenty of times also.

[Dellcara]

Hey...I agree.............. I do the same, but not every judge is a face judge as the losers would have you believe.

yep ... totally agree with you on that .... many losers will use it as an easy excuse

[Diva]

Hey...I agree.............. I do the same, but not every judge is a face judge as the losers would have you believe.

yep ... totally agree with you on that .... many losers will use it as an easy excuse

I don't think many people in the thread have suggested that every judge is a face judge, most of the comments seem to be along the lines of it being a minority, but not a trivial minority.

As for it just being peoples' opinions - I think the perception of dishonesty is just as damaging as the reality in something like this. If 75-80% of respondents think there is a problem with face judging, that's a problem for the sport in itself, regardless of how right they are. How high that figure is really suprised me.

[Dellcara]

How high that figure is really suprised me.

Doesn't suprise me at all to be honest .... in my breed the entries can vary between 10 & 40 depending on the judge at Melbourne shows.

Group entries can be as low as 100 and up to 250 ....

People learn fast .... and like me they have better things to do with their time and money.

Show Committees need to learn ... poor entries should be sending you a message ...

[Diva]

How high that figure is really suprised me.

Doesn't suprise me at all to be honest .... in my breed the entries can vary between 10 & 40 depending on the judge at Melbourne shows.

You're right, it probably shouldn't have. I must live in a world of my own

Edited May 13, 2011 by Diva

[oakway]

Hey...I agree.............. I do the same, but not every judge is a face judge as the losers would have you believe.

yep ... totally agree with you on that .... many losers will use it as an easy excuse

I don't think many people in the thread have suggested that every judge is a face judge, most of the comments seem to be along the lines of it being a minority, but not a trivial minority.

As for it just being peoples' opinions - I think the perception of dishonesty is just as damaging as the reality in something like this. If 75-80% of respondents think there is a problem with face judging, that's a problem for the sport in itself, regardless of how right they are. How high that figure is really suprised me.

I do hear what you are saying , but look at it in this way, one winner how many losers that believe that the judge MAY be a face

judge. It alters the percentage greatly. It appears as though Dellcara and I have (along with many others) a way fixing the situation for ourselves as we don't enter.

Problem solvered. Hehe.

[Dogsfevr]

new show gear

[Ozstar]

Its fine to say "don't enter under that judge' but in SA we don't have choices of shows each weekend as other states do. you could go months without doing a show

I use to never enter under local judges, but now it is interstate and overseas.

I think the internet has been the worst thing to happen to the dog world.

I have won heaps in 20 years from BIS to just classes and am more than happy to be beaten by a good dog but refuse to be beaten by poor quality with a face handler anymore.

To be honest I have found the smaller country shows better to show under than huge international shows.

Leanne

[Diva]

Not entering is the best response, although I take your point Ozstar, but anyway it only works if you have been around long enough to know who's dodgy as. I don't usually, but I'm learning to ask around to check for an honest reputation before entering. It is a shame it's necessary though.

[Shaar]

Love it showdog

[Dogsfevr]

Love it showdog

We all will wear the same brand & colour so no one is favoured

[Tambaqui]

I have in the past where I didn't do any good under a few judges, but decided to give them a benefit of a doubt and give another entry. Funny thing, under one, my dog went on to get Best of Breed!

But there have been a few judges that will be never getting an entry from any of my dogs for as long as I show, based on a few things .

At one show I did, my dog worked very well around the ring, but instead got placed 2nd over a dog that refused to work in the ring or stand on the table! I got told by a few that my dog got robbed of that class! But as I said to them, that's showing for you and that's the way it goes!

There has been a few cases, when my dog had to go back for Reserve, but before I even set foot in the ring, the decision was already made! The judges are supposed to verify to make sure there was no dog that had to go back before awarding the Reserve Challenge!

I won't enter judges that also shown no interest in any of my dogs, it defeats the purpose of paying another roughly $12 per dog for a judge that never looked at the dog!

I will enter judges that I have found to be really good, or will give a second chance or enter with my future dogs!

I'd like to think I have been incredibly lucky so far and a lot of judges I have come across have been really good and enjoyable to show under.

I noticed about the mention of smaller entries, I have been fortunate enough to show at KCC where the entries for Toy Group was hovering about 100-120! However most of those judges actually have been fantastic and I noticed too they had more time to speak to exhibitors about some things, I remember one judge mentioned to me about handling my Min Pin and giving some advice to help handle them better! I'd sometimes often wonder why some of the judge after the show is not garnering enough entries! Perhaps maybe they were too honest of a judge that actually judges the dog?

Edited May 13, 2011 by Tambaqui

[Beauie]

Found the poll VERY interesting and also NOT surprising.

Sorry, but politics is rife out there in the rings, always the usual suspects and no one will change my mind.

I am not talking about my own breed here either but when you get to a show & know who's got the Group & most of the classes etc before even entering the ring, then you feel you are there to just make up the line-up and numbers.

Just put a post in this show ring forum as Id heard a recent show only had a very small number of entries - if true, I was rather taken back.

Likely small entries are people saying "hey, enough already" why bother entering if there isn't even a half "dangle of the carrot".

And before most of you aim your guns at me - Ive been around for 30 + years and have seen a lot - no wonder the passion is dying.

Sure, most winners are quality dogs and deserve their wins but some on the day don't and this is where I feel the problem lays - judges know the big winners and should judge on the day but do they really ?.....Or do they judge on " past history & knowledge " ?

We don't show half as much anymore and to be honest, we don't miss it - but I think, if this sport is to survive, then things have to change and it's not the exhibitors or getting better dogs.

Off my box now - happy showing to those whom still enjoy it.

[oakway]

new show gear

[Missymoo]

How high that figure is really suprised me.

Doesn't suprise me at all to be honest .... in my breed the entries can vary between 10 & 40 depending on the judge at Melbourne shows.

Group entries can be as low as 100 and up to 250 ....

People learn fast .... and like me they have better things to do with their time and money.

Show Committees need to learn ... poor entries should be sending you a message ...

Well said.

[kirst_goldens]

Absolutely agree - just because a dog wins, a good breeder will still know whether it's good enough to breed with. From personal experience, I know it can be easy enough to get the points for a CH title on one of my dogs but I know they're not one I would ever consider breeding with myself or letting someone else breed with her. There's not anything particularly wrong, I just don't think there's enough there.

If it wins enough I'd say most folk will think its good enough.

Pat Hastings semminar springs to mind with the saying "If a little is good then ALOT must be better" some people WILL just breed with what wins as they arnt breeding for the betterment of the breed but for big wins - this is not right and disgusting dont get me wrong but it happens... so they will run their breed or lines into the ground cause at the time they got some big wins

[espinay2]

While ther may be some judges out there who go with the 'safe' options, from my own point of view I have found it more productive to subscribe to the way of thinking espoused by Mary Roslin Williams in her book "Reaching for the Stars" when it comes to 'frequent winners'. To quote her on the issue, she talks about 'the second big millstone around the middle-breeder's neck, and that is the ringside, in other words, his fellow middle range competitors'. She goes on to say..

'This is a very big millstone, because the novice listens to others instead of looking to see why the winner went up. the middle-ranger is all too glad to find an excuse for his own lack of top wins, so instead of looking at his dog and also looking at the top dogs, he joins in with the novices and comes in time to subscribe to the idea that 'names' win because they are 'names'. Once he really comes to beleive this he will be a middle-ranger forever, because he will never discover why the good breeders' dogs win.

For many years I have seen promising novices come up into the middle-ranges and have felt hopeful that they would eventually become good breeders and my heart sunk because they have come up and said that very thing, that 'Mrs Blank can win with anything'. As soon as they start thinking that, I have no further hope for them. they have mentally evaded the issue that it takes a better dog to win.'

While I may not always agree with a judges choices, they generally have their reasons for putting up one dog over another - and that reason may not be obvious to those outside the ring who are looking at the dog from a different angle and dont have their hands on them. I am not going to dismiss a judges choice as arbitrary though just because a dog or dogs from a certain kennel wins a lot. There is usually a reason why a person has become a 'face' and even if their dogs would not be my choice, I would rather look and learn from that than dismiss it out of hand as being somehow corrupt or dodgy.

In the end how far you go and what you achieve really is about attitude.

Edited May 15, 2011 by espinay2

[Mystiqview]

Then there are some show secretaries who book judges who are known to like their dogs..No wonder entries to their shows for certain groups may be down??? People will not waste their money on known biased judges.

I was at a show last week. Everyone on the sideline knew who would win.. Crony and very good friend, when that dog got group, no one was surprised.

You get to which judge(s) are friends with certain people and tend to award those "friends". I do not know what is worse, the people entering under those judges or the judges for not looking at the dogs.

You see some who are wined and dined in gazebos a month or more before the show.

Judges who will not look at any dog but their friend's. I am sorry, I paid my money too. You may not like my dog, but please at least go over it!

It is refreshing to FIND a judge who actually LOOKS at the dog and not the person on the end of the leash.

The worst I ever personally heard while writing one day was one judge saying to their steward" Just a moment while I check the DOL point score, I don't want to embarrass myself by not putting up the winning dog". When on earth has a dog show being judged ONLINE!!

Sorry DOL.. that pointscore is causing people to come ruthless and so bitchy. The "fun" is going out of showing, because some believe the DOL point score the bee all and end all.