"face Judging" In The Show Ring

[RallyValley]

Question. If a judge gave every class in group to one of two different breeds what would you think of that judge? How about all rare breeds? All numerically strong breeds? What if they gave all the classes in show to dogs in the group they had judged?

[poodlefan]

Question. If a judge gave every class in group to one of two different breeds what would you think of that judge? How about all rare breeds? All numerically strong breeds? What if they gave all the classes in show to dogs in the group they had judged?

I wouldn't draw any particular conclusions.. he/she may have really liked what they saw in that breed (have seen one breed get BIG and RUBIG before). Numerically strong breeds have a better chance of having a couple of really good specimens. I think its a safe bet to go the strongest breed if you're not sold on any others.

[klink]

I think like most of the comments so far we are all aware that the so called face judging syndrome is well and alive and we either live with it or do the other thing. My previous comments are particularly aimed and judges ,judging ,judges. most do the right thing ,we all know the ones' that repay and repay etc, their fellow judges. In certain areas' this is quite blatant. I appreciate that a judge comes under a fair amount of pressure when he encounters another judge exhibitor in his ring, whether he/she puts it on themselves i dont' know, but i liken it to a professional footballer playing one day and the next day refereeing his own team, would the fans like that ? I think not.

[WreckitWhippet]

Question. If a judge gave every class in group to one of two different breeds what would you think of that judge? How about all rare breeds? All numerically strong breeds? What if they gave all the classes in show to dogs in the group they had judged?

I've been on the receiving end of a BIG and classes in group for everything I've entered a couple of times and the same goes for the CC's and Res CC's ( with competition ). The comments from judges has been that they liked the type and the dogs were all very nice.

I've also sat and watched and have seen the same thing happen with other breeds and can honeslty say, that they have been lovely dogs and were very similar in type.

You win some and lose some when it comes to the general specials judge. They may well think that what they have put up, is stronger that what has been put through by the other judges.

I've also seen a mystery judge pick from a couple of groups for the in shows.

[Crisovar]

A win merely as a "face" means little ( and we have all witnessed this happen when the 3-legged stove - or limping exhibit.. wins over better exhibits)

Personally I cant' think of a faster way to send a breeder's lines down the toilet than to put up anything they enter. People probably think they're doing friends a favour - they aren't. Put up shite and it gets bred... there goes the kennel.

Food for thought on this.

It is the BREEDERS responsibility to choose the stock they breed from, any Breeder worth their salt will not breed from an animal simply because it wins.

It is not the fault of Judges when crap animals are bred from, it is the fault of the Breeder.

[conztruct]

A win merely as a "face" means little ( and we have all witnessed this happen when the 3-legged stove - or limping exhibit.. wins over better exhibits)

Personally I cant' think of a faster way to send a breeder's lines down the toilet than to put up anything they enter. People probably think they're doing friends a favour - they aren't. Put up shite and it gets bred... there goes the kennel.

Food for thought on this.

It is the BREEDERS responsibility to choose the stock they breed from, any Breeder worth their salt will not breed from an animal simply because it wins.

It is not the fault of Judges when crap animals are bred from, it is the fault of the Breeder.

Absolutely agree - just because a dog wins, a good breeder will still know whether it's good enough to breed with. From personal experience, I know it can be easy enough to get the points for a CH title on one of my dogs but I know they're not one I would ever consider breeding with myself or letting someone else breed with her. There's not anything particularly wrong, I just don't think there's enough there.

[poodlefan]

Absolutely agree - just because a dog wins, a good breeder will still know whether it's good enough to breed with. From personal experience, I know it can be easy enough to get the points for a CH title on one of my dogs but I know they're not one I would ever consider breeding with myself or letting someone else breed with her. There's not anything particularly wrong, I just don't think there's enough there.

If it wins enough I'd say most folk will think its good enough.

[PomsNZ]

Im still a relative newbie, despite having a few in groups and a in show award behind me, (guess I really ought to move up to intermediate shower now) and have seen some shocking results.

One judge seemed to be in a sexual relationship with one woman, whom he kept coming up right behind her(you couldnt slide a piece of paper between them) and shuffling her along(giggling like a school girl which she def was not). despite the fact her dog did not walk at all, it won BOB (with over 10 other dogs entered) and then still not walking, got in line up for best of group and won a in age in show.

I just wont show under him again.

At another show, the judge asked the exhibitors of the next group NOT to show thier dog if they have shown in her first group.. They were given time to find handlers. When i was watching her, i seen her send a few exhibitors out of her ring, same people who had shown under her in the first group. First time I had seen that, and i asked someone and they said a judge will do that so not to be biased or called face judging.

I see it most in my countries judges... dont often show under them.

I dont mind been beaten by a better dog, but i DO mind been beaten because Im not someone else! I always told my friends if they judge my breed, I will not be showing under them.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Absolutely agree - just because a dog wins, a good breeder will still know whether it's good enough to breed with. From personal experience, I know it can be easy enough to get the points for a CH title on one of my dogs but I know they're not one I would ever consider breeding with myself or letting someone else breed with her. There's not anything particularly wrong, I just don't think there's enough there.

If it wins enough I'd say most folk will think its good enough.

I agree with both of you. I think Conztruct is describing the ideal, I think PF is in touch with the reality.

[Sherlot]

face judging is why external people to the dog world don't show dogs... I'm the only new border collie showing in WA for at least 2 years.. its just impossible to get into the circle of friends and when face happens you get very disheartened..

in dog sports people are accepting and you see agility, herding and obedience and all other types growing fast!!

[Crisovar]

Absolutely agree - just because a dog wins, a good breeder will still know whether it's good enough to breed with. From personal experience, I know it can be easy enough to get the points for a CH title on one of my dogs but I know they're not one I would ever consider breeding with myself or letting someone else breed with her. There's not anything particularly wrong, I just don't think there's enough there.

If it wins enough I'd say most folk will think its good enough.

I agree with both of you. I think Conztruct is describing the ideal, I think PF is in touch with the reality.

In that case the reality is that most people should not be Breeding.

[myValkyrie]

Absolutely agree - just because a dog wins, a good breeder will still know whether it's good enough to breed with. From personal experience, I know it can be easy enough to get the points for a CH title on one of my dogs but I know they're not one I would ever consider breeding with myself or letting someone else breed with her. There's not anything particularly wrong, I just don't think there's enough there.

If it wins enough I'd say most folk will think its good enough.

Yes they will but it's not necessarily so - this tends to happen when judges penalise faults rather than rewarding virtues.

[Stolzseinrotts]

I am enjoying reading this thread.

So many opinions, and all very interesting.

[conztruct]

Absolutely agree - just because a dog wins, a good breeder will still know whether it's good enough to breed with. From personal experience, I know it can be easy enough to get the points for a CH title on one of my dogs but I know they're not one I would ever consider breeding with myself or letting someone else breed with her. There's not anything particularly wrong, I just don't think there's enough there.

If it wins enough I'd say most folk will think its good enough.

I agree with both of you. I think Conztruct is describing the ideal, I think PF is in touch with the reality.

Yeah - fair point PF. Could I breed with her - yes. But it's more of a personal choice and she doesn't fit in with the direction in which I want to go in terms of breeding.

I guess my point is that just because a judge awards a dog a challenge or whatever at a show (especially when there's limited competition), it shouldn't be the basis upon which a breeder makes a decision on whether their dog is good for a breeding program. I've seen many dogs in my own breed who have some quite serious construction problems winning in the ring and this being used as a justification for using them for breeding. I think a good breeder will know their dog and it's faults regardless of performance in the ring.

Edited May 11, 2011 by conztruct

[Ozstar]

If it wins enough I'd say most folk will think its good enough

You will often see a dog that is winning regularly be it because it is a good example of the breed or not siring a number of litters. I often hear from breeders saying that they are going to use so and so cause it is so good and has won so much.

I have seen grand champions that have the wrong movement and yet they continue to be put up.

I am not saying that all judges are face judging but it is starting to get beyond a joke.

I am more than happy to see a dog win consistantly if it is good, but when it is a bad example of the breed it is giving false hopes to the owner/breeder/handler.

It is also interesting to see some of the dogs that are winning consistantly at all breeds can not win at a specialty.

In the past 20 years I have seen a lot of things change in the show world but you have to wonder why there is less and less people showing now than then.

Leanne

[Aziah]

If it wins enough I'd say most folk will think its good enough

You will often see a dog that is winning regularly be it because it is a good example of the breed or not siring a number of litters. I often hear from breeders saying that they are going to use so and so cause it is so good and has won so much.

I have seen grand champions that have the wrong movement and yet they continue to be put up.

I am not saying that all judges are face judging but it is starting to get beyond a joke.

I am more than happy to see a dog win consistantly if it is good, but when it is a bad example of the breed it is giving false hopes to the owner/breeder/handler.

It is also interesting to see some of the dogs that are winning consistantly at all breeds can not win at a specialty.

In the past 20 years I have seen a lot of things change in the show world but you have to wonder why there is less and less people showing now than then.

Leanne

I agree with what you have written Leanne and the bolded text above has hit the nail on the head!

[Sandra777]

If it wins enough I'd say most folk will think its good enough

You will often see a dog that is winning regularly be it because it is a good example of the breed or not siring a number of litters. I often hear from breeders saying that they are going to use so and so cause it is so good and has won so much.

I have seen grand champions that have the wrong movement and yet they continue to be put up.

I am not saying that all judges are face judging but it is starting to get beyond a joke.

I am more than happy to see a dog win consistantly if it is good, but when it is a bad example of the breed it is giving false hopes to the owner/breeder/handler.

It is also interesting to see some of the dogs that are winning consistantly at all breeds can not win at a specialty.

In the past 20 years I have seen a lot of things change in the show world but you have to wonder why there is less and less people showing now than then.

Leanne

I agree with what you have written Leanne and the bolded text above has hit the nail on the head!

Or don't even turn up! I vividly remember a double header show 7 or 8 years ago, the all breeds show was won by a dog (went through to RU BIS) which wasn't even entered under the breed specialist at the specialist show that afternoon. Breed specialist had never judged in the country before so 'he didn't like the dog last time' wasn't a viable excuse. Owners were there (they stayed for the all breeds specials) so pressing engagement elsewhere wasn't a viable excuse either!

[hollee]

If it wins enough I'd say most folk will think its good enough

You will often see a dog that is winning regularly be it because it is a good example of the breed or not siring a number of litters. I often hear from breeders saying that they are going to use so and so cause it is so good and has won so much.

I have seen grand champions that have the wrong movement and yet they continue to be put up.

I am not saying that all judges are face judging but it is starting to get beyond a joke.

I am more than happy to see a dog win consistantly if it is good, but when it is a bad example of the breed it is giving false hopes to the owner/breeder/handler.

It is also interesting to see some of the dogs that are winning consistantly at all breeds can not win at a specialty.

In the past 20 years I have seen a lot of things change in the show world but you have to wonder why there is less and less people showing now than then.

Leanne

I agree with what you have written Leanne and the bolded text above has hit the nail on the head!

Ditto from me.

[Missymoo]

If it wins enough I'd say most folk will think its good enough

You will often see a dog that is winning regularly be it because it is a good example of the breed or not siring a number of litters. I often hear from breeders saying that they are going to use so and so cause it is so good and has won so much.

I have seen grand champions that have the wrong movement and yet they continue to be put up.

I am not saying that all judges are face judging but it is starting to get beyond a joke.

I am more than happy to see a dog win consistantly if it is good, but when it is a bad example of the breed it is giving false hopes to the owner/breeder/handler.

It is also interesting to see some of the dogs that are winning consistantly at all breeds can not win at a specialty.

In the past 20 years I have seen a lot of things change in the show world but you have to wonder why there is less and less people showing now than then.

Leanne

I agree with you here

[Irish Lassy]

I am enjoying reading this thread.

So many opinions, and all very interesting.

Yes me to- thanks for starting it poodle fan?!!! Very controversial and VERY valid poll