"small Dog Syndrome"

[Guest rhy&ge]

I stumbled upon this article (while doing my buckets of research to prepare for the arrival of our pup :D) and thought it was quite interesting.

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/articles/smalltoydogs.htm

I definitely agree that people treat big dogs differently to the way they treat small dogs, thus causing more behavior problems in small dogs, and I was just wondering what other people thought of this article.

Any opinions?

Edited May 9, 2011 by rhy&ge

[W Sibs]

I really dislike the phrase "small dog syndrome"

It's the people that creates little dogs to mini monsters.

Edited May 9, 2011 by CW EW

[Guest rhy&ge]

^ Well that's exactly what the article says.

[corvus]

Every article on that website is BS. They used to have much more balanced information, but since Cesar Millan became popular, every breed information page and every article rabbits on about dominance and being the pack leader. Whoever writes them has no freaking idea and it makes me very, very angry. It has turned into IMO one of the most extreme dominance hierarchy obsessive general dog websites. There is stacks of 'information' on that site that is completely lacking in any form of scientific evidence to back it up, and some that actually has scientific evidence that disputes it.

Take it with a grain of salt.

As far as 'small dog syndrome' goes, I think a lot of the problem is that people don't understand that a lot of the world is more threatening when you're a small dog. And what's more, it's so easy to just pick them up and move them or simply force them to do what you want that people come to rely on that rather than training. Is it a problem? Depends on the dog and how effective the owner is at managing them. OH's parents have a Min Pin that pulls like a freight train on leash. Only, he weighs 3kg, so you don't even notice. Is it a problem? Not really. He's walked on a harness so he doesn't hurt himself and he can't pull anyone over and he's never let off leash. If he were mine, I'd teach him to walk nicely, but he's not and it's not really that big a deal. He also bites if he gets frightened. I don't blame him. He is tiny in a world of giants. He is very highly strung and his owners do not appreciate that he is frightened when he does it. Is it a problem? Only for him. First time I met him he bit me on the face. Given he's 3kg and wasn't deadly serious about it, he didn't even break the skin. I just felt bad that his owner had picked him up because he had a tendency to bite strangers and then basically shoved him into my face. Little wonder he bit me. It's not his fault, you can see. He just has owners that don't understand him. As much as I dislike him, he has been horrifically mishandled. His owners love him and do their best for him, but they just do not understand what life is like for him. He does not think he's the pack leader. He's just scared and anxious a lot of the time. He does whatever makes him feel better. Sometimes that is barking incessantly, and sometimes it's biting. He jumps up because it gets rewarded. He sits on people because he is a lap dog and a very cold, skinny one that appreciates warmth and softness. He growls when he is afraid. He 'asks' to be cuddled because it's one of the few things his owners understand and they reward it. He's on valium much of the time because they don't know how to make him feel safe.

Most of those behaviours on that page have nothing to do with dominance. Just reinforcement history. The stakes are rarely as high with small dogs as they are with large dogs, so it's more of a matter of people being lazy because they can afford to be IMO.

[Leelaa17]

Very interesting website. I read through most of it and see where the person who wrote it is coming from. I know quite a lot of people who are 'big dog people' or 'small dog people'. I adore both. I have had both big and small dogs during my life and love them both.

My OHs mother has a purebred maltese (an actual purebred! lol) and she has a serious issue with strangers and with other dogs. Now I KNOW that this is because we, regretfully, didn't socialise her when she was a pup. She has complete control over the house. And she get away with things because it is extremely cute when she does stuff.

Whereas at my house with max and jenna, they don't get away with ANYTHING. They are constantly being trained and told what is right and what to do and what not to do because they are just so big. And as predominantly inside dogs, they need to be well behaved.

I agree with pretty much everything that this website says. Not in the way that I don't like little dogs (I love them), and I went to the dog park yesterday and came into contact with quite a few little dogs that were lovely and had great tempermants. Whereas, there was a tiny little fluffy thing that literally CHARGED max and started barking and snapping. I called Max away obviously, but that was unnecessary. It just sucks cause the little dog was so damn cute!

ETA: I agree with everything the website says in the sense that little dogs get away with more, not that it is a dominance issue. I wouldn't have a CLUE whether it was dominance or not. I have no experience in that area. But I know from experience little dogs get away with more... As I said earlier, it's not a big deal with the maltese, but its a big deal with the two gsds.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Leelaa17

[Leelaa17]

Every article on that website is BS. They used to have much more balanced information, but since Cesar Millan became popular, every breed information page and every article rabbits on about dominance and being the pack leader. Whoever writes them has no freaking idea and it makes me very, very angry. It has turned into IMO one of the most extreme dominance hierarchy obsessive general dog websites. There is stacks of 'information' on that site that is completely lacking in any form of scientific evidence to back it up, and some that actually has scientific evidence that disputes it.

Take it with a grain of salt.

As far as 'small dog syndrome' goes, I think a lot of the problem is that people don't understand that a lot of the world is more threatening when you're a small dog. And what's more, it's so easy to just pick them up and move them or simply force them to do what you want that people come to rely on that rather than training. Is it a problem? Depends on the dog and how effective the owner is at managing them. OH's parents have a Min Pin that pulls like a freight train on leash. Only, he weighs 3kg, so you don't even notice. Is it a problem? Not really. He's walked on a harness so he doesn't hurt himself and he can't pull anyone over and he's never let off leash. If he were mine, I'd teach him to walk nicely, but he's not and it's not really that big a deal. He also bites if he gets frightened. I don't blame him. He is tiny in a world of giants. He is very highly strung and his owners do not appreciate that he is frightened when he does it. Is it a problem? Only for him. First time I met him he bit me on the face. Given he's 3kg and wasn't deadly serious about it, he didn't even break the skin. I just felt bad that his owner had picked him up because he had a tendency to bite strangers and then basically shoved him into my face. Little wonder he bit me. It's not his fault, you can see. He just has owners that don't understand him. As much as I dislike him, he has been horrifically mishandled. His owners love him and do their best for him, but they just do not understand what life is like for him. He does not think he's the pack leader. He's just scared and anxious a lot of the time. He does whatever makes him feel better. Sometimes that is barking incessantly, and sometimes it's biting. He jumps up because it gets rewarded. He sits on people because he is a lap dog and a very cold, skinny one that appreciates warmth and softness. He growls when he is afraid. He 'asks' to be cuddled because it's one of the few things his owners understand and they reward it. He's on valium much of the time because they don't know how to make him feel safe.

Most of those behaviours on that page have nothing to do with dominance. Just reinforcement history. The stakes are rarely as high with small dogs as they are with large dogs, so it's more of a matter of people being lazy because they can afford to be IMO.

Poor little munchkin I hate that he is scared and anxious most of the time. Do the owners know why that is?

[Guest Panzer Attack!]

Is the article particularly old? A lot of the info given seems rather outdated... I've worked with animals for a while and IME there are just as many badly behaved medium/large breed dogs that are encouraged to act "tough" or whatever. Examples:

"she's a cocker, of course she's going to act crazy"

"if you come any closer he'll bite you, it's in his breed to protect me" (this was an offlead Rott in a pet store... Nice one!)

"yeah she always bites, she's meant to" (border collie!)

Plus all the dogs that are naughty because "we have kids", "the pet store said he'd grow up to be well behaved (LOL - an oodle of course), "he's a rescue" (both my rescues were very people and dog friendly, sorry, no excuse), "I don't understand why he's naughty. He went to puppy school!" (dog is over a year old lol) etc.

Don't get me started on dogs that go nuts when you approach them because the get alpha-rolled at home.

But I do agree that a lot of average pet owners will not put in adequate training with a small dog because they don't think they have to. Worst offenders are first timers (my first dog was a spooky misbehaved turd for the first year!) and people that have had big dogs and then get their first malt x and spoil the shit out of it.

[Leelaa17]

"she's a cocker, of course she's going to act crazy"

"if you come any closer he'll bite you, it's in his breed to protect me" (this was an offlead Rott in a pet store... Nice one!)

"yeah she always bites, she's meant to" (border collie!)

What a load of horse s**t. there is one guy that used to go to the same dog park as me (I go to a different one now because we moved) and he has a bull terrier. Beautiful dog, Max and him got along like a house on fire! but he used to say to people 'yeah he's a fighter because i'm a fighter', and he used to walk the dog in and he wouldn't have a shirt on (he was LITERALLY trying to boost his ego...).

And some breeds are more protective than others I guess... (not that I have any experience with that)... all I know is that if Max hears a noise outside he will come and sit in front of me and watch the doors. He wont move until he feels it is safe. he is quite protective of me and will stand in front of me if someone is approaching and he doesn't get good vibes off them. I trust his instincts so I just keep walking.

And NO dog is 'meant' to bite. I can't believe someone has said thaty to you panzer. I would've been just dumbfounded. I wouldn't have said anything. My goodness!

[jacqui835]

I agree with it to an extent, but I completely disagree with the idea that dogs don't recognise size. A small balanced dog will behave differently from a larger balanced dog, because the world is simply more threatening and everything is bigger than what they are. This doesn't mean however that the smaller dog can't be dominant. Dominance in dogs is based on more than strength and size, it comes down to who is the most confident and competent leader and who can make the best decisions for the group, which is fortunate indeed for the people who own dogs stronger than themselves (such as myself).

[mita]

I really dislike the phrase "small dog syndrome"

There's something missing....should be 'Owner-created small dog syndrome'.

But that shorter phrase is being used in many places. It needs filling out.

Yes, smaller dogs can tend to be given a different type of attention from owners, because they're portable & less seen as dogs that need training and management accordingly. And, being small, these dogs can get more intimidated by the 'larger' bodies around them, reacting with timidity or defensiveness. So tips for handling smaller dogs can be useful (like, get down low when calling them, don't swoop down on them). Also, as they tend to be housedogs, & kept close to owners, they can get demanding of their owner's attention. Might come out in 'bigger than their boots' behaviours or separation anxiety issues.

But, having said all that, small breeds well understood & well managed are delightful pets. I wouldn't swap our tibbies, for the world.

They often get praised by strangers for their good behaviour. I'd like to claim full responsibility for that. Truth is, they were adopted as adults from a registered breeder...& they came like that! I just maintained the good work already put in!.

Edited May 9, 2011 by mita

[W Sibs]

I really dislike the phrase "small dog syndrome"

It's the people that creates little dogs to mini monsters.

I agree with the article to a point.

Dogs know their sizes and I feel that little dogs are more reactive due to this. Everything is HUGE to them. So people got to learn to understand that, and help them be comfortable in the huge world.

I really dislike the phrase "small dog syndrome"

There's something missing....should be 'Owner-created small dog syndrome'.

But that shorter phrase is being used in many places. It needs filling out.

Yes, smaller dogs can tend to be given a different type of attention from owners, because they're portable & less seen as dogs that need training and management accordingly. And, being small, these dogs can get more intimidated by the 'larger' bodies around them, reacting with timidity or defensiveness. So tips for handling smaller dogs can be useful (like, get down low when calling them, don't swoop down on them). Also, as they tend to be housedogs, & kept close to owners, they can get demanding of their owner's attention. Might come out in 'bigger than their boots' behaviours or separation anxiety issues.

But, having said all that, small breeds well understood & well managed are delightful pets. I wouldn't swap our tibbies, for the world.

They often get praised by strangers for their good behaviour. I'd like to claim full responsibility for that. Truth is, they were adopted as adults from a registered breeder...& they came like that! I just maintained the good work already put in!.

Ohh... I like this phrase though!

[corvus]

Poor little munchkin I hate that he is scared and anxious most of the time. Do the owners know why that is?

:rolleyes: I have TRIED to explain to them. Gently. In very small snippets. I carefully, carefully pick my times to say something and make sure I just say a couple of sentences at most with a really simple message. The fact of the matter is that they don't want to train him. They just want to manage him. So it doesn't matter what I say, if someone says something that sounds easier than what I've suggested, then they'll be naturally more attracted to that idea. They need a huge amount of training in their own behaviour if they are ever to going to get anywhere with him. Last time he was here I spent all week teaching him just to pay attention. I thought if I could show them that something could be done and he's not a lost cause that they might be inspired. I spent most of the week priming him just to take treats. The poor dog is scared to take treats because half the time when he helps himself to someone's plate he gets shouted at and it's such a strong punishment that he assumes food and people are by and large not a safe mix. It took me all week, but by the end he was eating every treat in the house and was beginning to get the idea that in our house there are opportunities to earn treats all the time. His owners were like "well, now we know he'll take treats" and I was like "seriously, you have to reward him every time he does something you like" and they were like "well, we tell him he's a good boy, but he doesn't care"... "No, you have to reward him with food. He'll care about that. Good boy doesn't mean anything to him."

I may as well not bother. Last I heard he's gone downhill even further and is now on valium. He's an old dog, so possibly some of it is old age, but you have to wonder what kind of life he has if he has to be on valium to cope with it. They will find any excuse for his behaviour. It's not because they are trying to excuse him or absolve themselves of blame. They just don't know how to help him and don't want to have to change the way they do things. It's easier for them to latch onto reasons not to change, and I'm sure they don't even do it consciously. It's very frustrating, but I think this happens to plenty of small dogs.

[Guest rhy&ge]

What a load of horse s**t. there is one guy that used to go to the same dog park as me (I go to a different one now because we moved) and he has a bull terrier. Beautiful dog, Max and him got along like a house on fire! but he used to say to people 'yeah he's a fighter because i'm a fighter', and he used to walk the dog in and he wouldn't have a shirt on (he was LITERALLY trying to boost his ego...).

Sounds like a classic tool. Gotta love 'em. Always entertaining. ;)

[shelby-001]

I do agree with the article in that a lot of small dog owners allow behaviours in their 'small' dogs that are annoying and would never be acceptable in a larger breed.

Some things are non-consequential, like the pulling on a lead! Owner puts it on a harness, if they are happy with that, they're prerogative. What wouldn't be their prerogative though would be if the small dog was lunging at other dogs as it walked passed. If it was and a larger dog retaliated, of course the larger dog would be blamed, regardless of it being antagonized first.

I'm not going to pretend that large dogs and small dogs will ever be treated the same, it's a laugh for my 33kg Amstaff to be on my lap (I weigh 49kg), but hey he still gets on there from time to time. Would I chose to have him there all the time no. If I owned an 8kg SWF, I'd probably love having it on my lap all the time. Whether they do it or not to me is not the issue. It's having the manners to accept when they are told no and to move away politely, not yapping n snarling about the situation.

I completely agree with the comments regarding how much 'scarier' the world is to a small dog. Of course it is, my Amstaffs are obviously less intimidated than my auntie's shitzus (sp) by all sorts of things. They don't feel threatened by a lot of things a dog so much smaller would. HOWEVER, I do believe the owner can make the small dog comfortable in the world so that these issues aren't a problem. I know a household of 4 Maltese and once introduced to them as a new comer, they retreat to their beds or play as they were before you approached the property. They accompany their owner to the door (silently I might ad), inspect the new visitor, after a sniff n hello, you don't see them again. Unlike Aunties who's go Ape Sh*t for the duration of your visit and get locked in the laundry so they don't nip your toes off.

Whoever said that these behaviours are all possible in bigger dogs is 100% correct, difference is most larger dog owners will train this out of them, while small dog owners will just 'remove' the dog or laugh it off as 'isn't it cute, he's so little'.

It's not the dogs that cause the problems, it's the owners.

[lovemesideways]

Poor little munchkin I hate that he is scared and anxious most of the time. Do the owners know why that is?

:rolleyes: I have TRIED to explain to them. Gently. In very small snippets. I carefully, carefully pick my times to say something and make sure I just say a couple of sentences at most with a really simple message. The fact of the matter is that they don't want to train him. They just want to manage him. So it doesn't matter what I say, if someone says something that sounds easier than what I've suggested, then they'll be naturally more attracted to that idea. They need a huge amount of training in their own behaviour if they are ever to going to get anywhere with him. Last time he was here I spent all week teaching him just to pay attention. I thought if I could show them that something could be done and he's not a lost cause that they might be inspired. I spent most of the week priming him just to take treats. The poor dog is scared to take treats because half the time when he helps himself to someone's plate he gets shouted at and it's such a strong punishment that he assumes food and people are by and large not a safe mix. It took me all week, but by the end he was eating every treat in the house and was beginning to get the idea that in our house there are opportunities to earn treats all the time. His owners were like "well, now we know he'll take treats" and I was like "seriously, you have to reward him every time he does something you like" and they were like "well, we tell him he's a good boy, but he doesn't care"... "No, you have to reward him with food. He'll care about that. Good boy doesn't mean anything to him."

I may as well not bother. Last I heard he's gone downhill even further and is now on valium. He's an old dog, so possibly some of it is old age, but you have to wonder what kind of life he has if he has to be on valium to cope with it. They will find any excuse for his behaviour. It's not because they are trying to excuse him or absolve themselves of blame. They just don't know how to help him and don't want to have to change the way they do things. It's easier for them to latch onto reasons not to change, and I'm sure they don't even do it consciously. It's very frustrating, but I think this happens to plenty of small dogs.

They might even Like that he has issues. Whether it be subconciously or not, some people like to have something to baby and look after. I have a friend who is like that, she likes her dog to misbehave in someways, because then she has the chance to coddle him and tell him hes "been a naughty boy".

And in regards to the article.

FFS if your dog jumps on you, it doesn't mean "hes the pack leader", it usually means he's been rewarded in some way for jumping and it gets him what he wants. Over use of the pack leader/ dominance stuff is really annoying.

Edited May 9, 2011 by lovemesideways

[corvus]

FFS if your dog jumps on you, it doesn't mean "hes the pack leader", it usually means he's been rewarded in some way for jumping and it gets him what he wants. Over use of the pack leader/ dominance stuff is really annoying.

Not just annoying, downright dangerous and potentially cruel. Check out this page from the same site that turned up on a mailing list today: http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/articles/alphadog.htm

[lovemesideways]

FFS if your dog jumps on you, it doesn't mean "hes the pack leader", it usually means he's been rewarded in some way for jumping and it gets him what he wants. Over use of the pack leader/ dominance stuff is really annoying.

Not just annoying, downright dangerous and potentially cruel. Check out this page from the same site that turned up on a mailing list today: http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/articles/alphadog.htm

I totally agree. I do think in some cases that dominance plays a part. But its not the cookie cutter ideal that is put across at the moment.

That whole article is pretty scary.. "Through the walk the dog was whining in a very anxious way.", "When he was corrected it was either done in a passive way or done in an angry way and the dog would pee." How does that sound like a confident dog in any way, shape or form??? Poor dog.

(Psst, I tried to send you a message regarding something Corvus but won't let me. If you feel like changing that I would like to send you that message.)