Vitamin C And Snake Bite

[NewHound]

Not a myth not a myth not a myth. It works. Vets are going to say it doesn't work because they miss out on the $$ and probably because they haven't tried or seen it work.

Vitamin C IS a powerful antitoxin and antihistamine.

The first time I saw it work was when a horse that was on the ground and very nearly breathing her last was brought around with a massive does of it, (the farrier saved her) and a dog and a human. A bloke got bitten and the hospital had run out or just didn't have any so they rounded up as much Vitamin C tablets they could find and threw them down him and some injectable stuff was got from the produce store.

It's 1ml per kilo of body weight. And you can't overdose on it, all it gives you is the runs. It can work on poisoning too.

I keep two 50ml vials in the fridge and a container of powder also and we take it with us when we go bush. I take as much as I can without getting the trots every day and haven't suffered from hay fever since I started using it.

It can be interesting trying to get needles and convince the chemist that you're not a druggie though. Mine gave me a really sad look as if to say oh no, you haven't but when I explained what it was for she suggested the right sized needle etc.

Oh and I've been bitten by a redback three times now, the first two times I was really crook but the last time, I took 20,000 mg and all I got was a bit of a sweat around the bite and a slight headache. No throwing up or tremors or blinding headache like the first two.

Edited May 17, 2007 by NewHound

[raz]

There was a Vet emergency medicine conference in Sydney in 2005 collating a mammoth amount of knowledge and research on snake bite, a subject in which I have a keen interest (which may come from having a farm with dogs, goats, cattle and cats..... all of who in the past 25 years have met foul play with a snake at some time or other!) I read a summary of the findings, one of which concerned Vitamin C use.

"Vit C has no protective effects whatsoever on snake evenomation"

It was explained that of all the thousands of dogs seen for snake bite (and lets face it we have the most venomous ones here) 75% have been bitten with a lethal dose of venom and will have no chance of survivial without antivenom.

That leaves 25% of dogs which survive without the need for antivenom... the Vets either just placing the dog under observation to ensure that he isnt worsening, or giving supportive treatment.

Now, if we have used Vit C injections on one of these dogs (the 25% who have been bitten with a NON-lethal dose of venom), when the dog survives as he will, it is human nature to attribute the success to that Vit C, and we do it very passionately sometimes! Some of us really beleive it and swear by it till the cows come home, because we have given it and seen the dog recover- we are adament it worked and no one can tell us otherwise! But in reality, for these cases where the Vit C injections "appeared to have worked", well the patient was going to recover anyway. One could have given Vit B, sterile water, or waved a wand....and it would have apparently worked. For the passionate believer however, it is a difficult concept to get one's head around!

Hope that info helps!

(Theres a heap more on snake bite and interesting cases if any are interested...)

Cheers, BJ

PS: Being a naturally inclined chap I was a tad dissappointed to learn of the above... however my faith in Vit C is not all lost.....

As many know, Vit C is one chemical however in which there is demonstrable benefit in the treatment of some viral diseases in dogs, so just because ascorbic acid (Vit C) doesnt assist in snake or tick bite, it doesnt mean that it isnt beneficial in selected conditions and is still a valuable drug in the right situations.

PPS some more interesting statistics:

Dog survivial rate with correct antivenom=75-91%

Dog survival rate without antivenom=25-31%,

There are 3 causes death from snake bite envenomation:

1. treatment was delayed

2. The wrong type of antivenom was used (the Vet needs accurate identification of the snake! Bring the dead snake in with the bitten dog. If the dead snake cannot be brought in you must allow the Vet to use the snake venom detection kit if he is to use the correct antivenom.

3. Insufficient antivenom was given... a common prob for us dog owners as we have to pay for the antivenom not like humans where we are subsidised by the govt. Generally the later you bring the dog in, the more advanced the signs and the more antivenom is required and the harder it hits our pocket!

PPPS...I was only going write a short message... but lastly something that i hope will save many from the same mistake...the panel said that recently there was a 4th cause of death... people trying to give medications/potions by mouth.... most snakes in Aus cause paralysis, and as such most patients cant effectively swallow so if you give anything by mouth, there is a good chance it'll go straight into the lungs and cause fatal aspiration..... they have been seeing snake bite cases presented dead or in terminal throws of gasping for breath where owners have given something (I'm again sad to say often Vitamin C liquid) by syringe down the mouth and guess what.... they are dying not of the snake bite, but of aspiration pneumonia! Quite logical when you think about it. It is tragic that many of these cases could have had their snake bite successfully treated, and their best mate survive, but instead the owners killed their own dog with the Vit C. We don't hear much about such cases, which are obviously more common than we realise. I guess as a dog owner, the realisation that you have killed your own dog would be tragic and you'd be so filled with guilt, the less said the better.

So the message here is....for our best pal's sake.. if he's been bitten, then give nothing, I mean nothing by mouth

Fabulous post, BoxerJim. Thanks for that. I´ll pm you.

[rose of tralee]

On needle gauges: 18G x 1.5 inches (I go well back!) is a size commonly used for horse injections. As the numbers increase, the bore decreases so that 20, 21, even 23G would be used on small animals.

I lived with a bottle of injectable Vit C but never needed to use it before it expired so can't personally say about the viscosity. Sounds like 18G might be the go for intra-muscular in an emergency. 18G x approx. 1 inch would be easier to handle if in a rush.

[BoxerJim]

On needle gauges: 18G x 1.5 inches (I go well back!) is a size commonly used for horse injections. As the numbers increase, the bore decreases so that 20, 21, even 23G would be used on small animals.

I lived with a bottle of injectable Vit C but never needed to use it before it expired so can't personally say about the viscosity. Sounds like 18G might be the go for intra-muscular in an emergency. 18G x approx. 1 inch would be easier to handle if in a rush.

just a tip for your dogs sake...

18 Guage is sufficient for its viscosity. 1 inch may be better than 1.5 inch as not infrequently well-meaning dog owners inject into the thigh (after the neck already been injected) and hit the femoral or sciatic nerve and cause paralysis which can take weeks -months to resolve (Vit being an acid). less likely to do so with a shorter needle.

[shepin]

I had a cat bitten by a brown snake.....She went down very quick. I rang the vet.. They told me she was too far gone and to just keep her quite and she would go off to sleep and not wake up.

I was not happy with that so I tried the Vitamin C my cat came good, she was bitten 8 years ago.

I would give Vitamin C to any of my animals if bitten by a snake.

[raz]

Cats are more resilient to envenomation than dogs are.

For anyone who thinks Vit C cant hurt ... try taking vit C straight out of the fridge, using the correct gauge and jabbing it into your quad. That´s after going through the trauma and extreme pain of a snake bite when you may very well be on the way to renal failure apart from everything else. And please note that intramuscular Vit C is about as useful as picking up a tab of ascorbic acid with your butt cheeks. Dig around for a vein instead.

The only cure for envenomation is AV.

[morgan]

I always keep vit C in case, as it is hard to get AV out my way, even for people - but I would have a lot of trouble injecting it unless the animal was already collapsed. You would certainly have a fight on your hands! I have only ever injected vit C into a drip line myself.

Having injected many syringes full of refrigerated, viscous antibiotics into horses' muscle tissue with 18 gauge needles over the years I know how much it hurts an animal that is conscious. Finding a usable vein in a snakebite victim could be easier said than done.

The only time I ever had an intramuscular antibiotic shot I fainted from the pain, so I know exactly what it feels like.

[BoxerJim]

Cats are more resilient to envenomation than dogs are.

For anyone who thinks Vit C cant hurt ... try taking vit C straight out of the fridge, using the correct gauge and jabbing it into your quad. That´s after going through the trauma and extreme pain of a snake bite when you may very well be on the way to renal failure apart from everything else. And please note that intramuscular Vit C is about as useful as picking up a tab of ascorbic acid with your butt cheeks. Dig around for a vein instead.

The only cure for envenomation is AV.

You're spot on about the cats Raz.

Figures from Vets show that for cats they achieve 75% survivability without the use of AV.

This is in contrast with dogs where it is only 25%

So cats, you have a huge benefit over the dogs!

cheers, Jim

[raz]

Finding a usable vein in a snakebite victim could be easier said than done.

Yep. I totally agree, Morgs. I wouldnt be wasting time stuffing around with it and freaking the poor animal out even more. Much more important to get them sedated and on AV as quickly as possible.

I´d be telling your damn vet to stock AV during the breeding season, Morgs. That´s not good enough. Highly unlikely the hospital doesnt stock it for people but atleast a human snake bite victim can be flown elsewhere and they´re not as likely to die quickly, however, there were quite a few human fatalities in nsw last season compared to most years.

What do cats have that dogs dont that increases their survival rate with snake bites, jim?

[Jed]

If my dog was bitten by a snake, I would inject vit. c on the way to the vets. There is no proof it doesn't work, and equally, there is no proof that it does. My rationale is that it can't do much harm.

You need a No. 18 needle, and even then, it is quite difficult to inject intramusculaly. Forget intravenous, you'll never find a vein, and if you aren't experienced in intraveneous injections, forget it, coz you will probably do more damage trying to get the needle into the vein - particularly if the veins have collapsed. The other thing to watch is that it stings like hell, and you might get bitten. Orally is not a good idea, due to paralysis.

And - it IS possible to poison with Vit C, but you need to give a hell of a lot - more than the body can excrete - so if you are injecting for snake bite, it's probably ok.

The problem with some of these treatments is that there is no proof the dog was envenomated to begin with. My neighbour was bitten by a red belly snake, and felt a bit nauseous. Didn't bother with the doctor, and that was the only sympton.

My cat crawled inside one night about midnight - paralysed in the hind legs, drooling, lost her voice. Big engorged scrub tick between her shoulder blades. I injected 15ml of vit c in the muscle in the hindquarter. I expected her to die, but at 3am, she was still alive, and I thought, a little better. Had no idea what the dose was, so put in another 5ml - with a bit of effort as she was well enough to resist. Decided if she was still alive in the am, I would take her to the vet. At 7am she was walking although rather shakily, and her voice was nearly normal. Injected another 5 mls, and she had pretty well recovered by lunch time. I didn't take her to the vet.

the ticks here are pretty nasty, and I have lost 3 cats - just found them dead, with one big tick, and had a few dogs to the vet with ticks.

So. I dunno Would certainly inject with Vit C for ticks now - and visit the vet.

[BoxerJim]

If my dog was bitten by a snake, I would inject vit. c on the way to the vets. There is no proof it doesn't work, and equally, there is no proof that it does. My rationale is that it can't do much harm.

You need a No. 18 needle, and even then, it is quite difficult to inject intramusculaly. Forget intravenous, you'll never find a vein, and if you aren't experienced in intraveneous injections, forget it, coz you will probably do more damage trying to get the needle into the vein - particularly if the veins have collapsed. The other thing to watch is that it stings like hell, and you might get bitten. Orally is not a good idea, due to paralysis.

And - it IS possible to poison with Vit C, but you need to give a hell of a lot - more than the body can excrete - so if you are injecting for snake bite, it's probably ok.

The problem with some of these treatments is that there is no proof the dog was envenomated to begin with. My neighbour was bitten by a red belly snake, and felt a bit nauseous. Didn't bother with the doctor, and that was the only sympton.

My cat crawled inside one night about midnight - paralysed in the hind legs, drooling, lost her voice. Big engorged scrub tick between her shoulder blades. I injected 15ml of vit c in the muscle in the hindquarter. I expected her to die, but at 3am, she was still alive, and I thought, a little better. Had no idea what the dose was, so put in another 5ml - with a bit of effort as she was well enough to resist. Decided if she was still alive in the am, I would take her to the vet. At 7am she was walking although rather shakily, and her voice was nearly normal. Injected another 5 mls, and she had pretty well recovered by lunch time. I didn't take her to the vet.

the ticks here are pretty nasty, and I have lost 3 cats - just found them dead, with one big tick, and had a few dogs to the vet with ticks.

So. I dunno Would certainly inject with Vit C for ticks now - and visit the vet.

Hiya, good post, had similar experience as I guess many other people have too....

Our moggie, he got bitten, was semi paralysed, voice gone etc. Pulled th etick off and dang it all he was just about fully recovered by morning. I didnt give him anything, just withheld water and all matter via mouth (due to paralysis of the swallowing muscles). the legs came 90% right by that afternoon... and the following day out on the prowl again.. tough bugger.

Apparently if there's some immunity, thats not an uncommon scenario you & I experienced, as everyone knows, the most important thing is to remove the tick asap. Huge numbers of cats and dogs may not need AV and survive without it. Some dont, the problem is identifying which really need the av, and the longer one waits and the further up the paralysis goes, the harder it is for the Av to reverse it.

The flatmates cat, an obnoxious thing it was to, got a tick and same signs, pulled it off, and it was in the days when I gave vit C, so i gave 3 doses IM, and it didnt do squat excpet hurt like hell, deteriorated steadily, needed the AV big time,, got thru it OK but cost a bit for the AV... have you ever seen how they make the stuff? I know why its costly now...

I am always amazed at the variation in response, recovery and requirement for av depending on immunity.

Many dogs are not affected by ticks at all, or only partially so due to build up of natural immunity.

Also "being immune" can be temporary, best guess to date (in the canine) is 3 month immunity max unless topped up by bites but to date little refereed data on this immunity topic, mainly anecdotal so far so dont hang your hat on that 3 months

Even the bandicoot, the natural host, can succumb to Tick paraylsis if sufficient ticks with sufficient venom latch on.!!! This overwhelmes (sp?) the circulating immunity and they go down.

oh yes..... re the snake bite....

"The problem with some of these treatments is that there is no proof the dog was envenomated to begin with."

The following might be of assistance...

#1 is the visualisation that the animal was bitten followed by the myriad of signs that can follow. Thats pretty good proof of envenomation.

However one still desnt know if the amount of venom injected is a lethal amount.

Also, unless the ID of the snake is accurate (AVERAGE accuracy of rural folk correctly Id a venomous snake is 19%) one still doesnt know if the venom is lethal in character, (it may be short lived and self recover eg brown Tree snake, rather than a nasty true brown)

#2... many snakes alter the clotting mechanism of the blood, and others cause muscle damage (some do both) Both these have relatively simple blood tests to detect.... not too expensive either and nearly all Vets have them. If they are up, thats pretty good proof of being bitten too, but doesnt tell you which type of snake.... which leads me to....

#3i: the snake bite detection kit...in our semi rural area, our local clinic goes thru them at a vast rate , accuracy is very good, and excellent proof of being bitten. Not only does it assist in the confirmation of bite, it can ascertain which group of snake the venom came from and assist in the decision making of which Av to use if any at all. In some cases with a -ve, it can assist the Vets in decision making of not to use AV or look at alternative cause for the clinical signs. Its done on one of the following;

a) bite site (unless in a conspicuous spot, or accurately seen, normally sites arent able to be found esp in cats and hairy dogs!)

b) Blood

c) Urine

also, there are time limits on when these can be used post bite

Hope that helps? ;-)

[NorthernStarPits]

*bump* Cause its a Good thread, and its that time of the year.

[Baby Dragon]

i asked a vet about it and was told it's an 'old wives tale' and not to bother.... but im reserving my judgement because i have heard that some people swear by it to buy their dogs some time to get to the vet.

[7464]

*bump* Cause its a Good thread, and its that time of the year.

I was just about to post this link into the newest vit c thread.

Edit: I will still post the link, just saw it's being discussed in general dog discussion.

Edited September 30, 2007 by ~Nic~

[Poodle wrangler]

Most of the links seem broken now .

How exactly do you inject into the dog's neck?

When I see the vet do it for vaccs- they just seem to grab some skin and stick the needle in.

Doesn't appear to be into muscle?

I can do intramuscular and intavenous injections on people, how to avoid nerves etc., but have no idea about dogs

HELP! I'm thinking of storing some injectable VitC in the fridge, though I think my greatest problem would be getting a 25kg dog back home to drive to the vets.

[Allerzeit]

When I see the vet do it for vaccs- they just seem to grab some skin and stick the needle in.

Doesn't appear to be into muscle?

No, you're correct - it's not into a muscle when the vet injects like that. It's subcutaneous - under the skin.

For IM - probably one of the easiest places is at the top of the thigh, nice big muscle Although, having said that, I'm only going on what I've seen. I can't inject a dog (or anything else) to save my life, I have a terrible phobia of needles. Injecting things (be it dogs or sheep - happens a lot with the sheep - vaccinations, penicillan, etc) is always a job for OH