Vitamin C And Snake Bite

[Guest kelpiework]

Have heard of some dog owners up my way that use injectable Vit C if they have a dog down with snake bite. Anyone had any experience with this? I believe the Vit C works to 'detoxify' the poison and the Vit C can't hurt the dog anyway. Is this just a bush yarn or does it have some scientific merit?

[pebbles]

I have heard of others and have contact with one person who used this on a gundog in the field and now carries it all the time. I understand that some Vets. are even acknowledging that Vit C has it's uses. There has been quite a lot of discussion on this here so if you do a search the "Vit C" there's some fact and fiction to read up on. (I keep some injectable in the fridge - thankfully haven't had to use it yet!).

edit to add - There's some good info from Pat Colby (think that's right, you will probably find mention of this name in the search) worth a look.

Edited February 21, 2005 by pebbles

[Steve]

To be honest Im not sure but I figure it cant do any harm and just in case it works Ive got the stuff here ready to go I have to travel about 30 mins to get to a vet and Ill stick a needle of vit c in on the way.

[FlippingKazza]

Check out this link.

http://users.netconnect.com.au/~ncarter/snake.htm

[Dogsfevr]

It certainly is used & usually as a stand bye to hopefully give extra time.

People i new had big snake issues & they tried this method with there vet & had a 50/50 success rate depending on the snake & obviously how quickly it was given.

Alot of the retrieving people do carry at all trials

[bulldogz4eva]

It is used in America by veterinarians,here most vets I have spoken too still think its a myth.I used it on my pitbull when she got bitten.I saw her get bitten. I injected her within 5 minutes and she showed no signs for some time,after an hour she started to show signs and I was already on my way to the vet.I arrived and she was still conscious.She was given antivenine and still died but I believe that was the vets fault as he injected her with something else after she was already coming good,but that is another story not for here.

By the time I got to the vet it had been an hour and a half since she was bitten.She was bitten on the lip which is the worst place to get bitten for a dog so the vet tells me,by a 6 foot dugite(brownsnake).She was still conscious when I arrived at the vets and I dont believe she would have been without the vitamin c as she copped qa good dose of venom because there was blood coming out of the deep fang marks in her lip (she did kill the snake).I lost my best mate that day and I often think if I had of given her more or if I had of gotten there quicker,guess I'll never know.

You are supposed to give 10_ 15ml of 500mg/ml intramuscularly into each side of the neck.I didnt give my dog enough as at the time I couldnt remember how much and I didnt have my computer here.But I would try it again,but I would also be ready to go to the vet.

As pebbles said there is some information by pat colby on the net that you may find useful.

Edited February 25, 2005 by bulldogz4eva

[Guest kelpiework]

Thankyou for your input guys and your stroy bulldogs, I appreciate it. Chris

[caffiend42]

also check out the snake bite thread by raz - her dogs got bitten recently and survived.

[CAL]

Check out this link.

http://users.netconnect.com.au/~ncarter/snake.htm

Great source... it actually answered a few questions I was going to post today.

Does anyone know where you can buy injectable Vit C - vet, chemist ???

[Nadia]

Inj Vit C is available over the counter at Vets, stock feeds etc, anywhere that horse

suplies are sold. It is very cheap. Don't bother with the Chemist it is expensive.

Troy Vit C is one of the most economical I think. Don't forget to pick up some syringes and needles.

[Guest subyroo]

Hello Dog Lovers,

You can find more info re Vitamin C and snakebite here:

http://www.lowchensaustralia.com/vitc.htm

This next site has me being a little hesitant, but anything is possible in this day and age.

http://www.shoosnake.com/

[bulldogz4eva]

If you do not have the injectable stuff you can rub vitamin c powder in to the wound and it will be absorbed into the bloodstream.Also force vitamin c tablets down there throat its not as useful but it might buy you some time.

[raz]

Interesting. I was only discussing it with my vet this morning.

OK - my breeder swore by it to slow down envenomation and she lived about 45 minutes from her Vet but had almost daily situations in summer. My dogs didnt get a hit of Vitamin C as I didnt have any - I wasnt expecting this in Sydney....however, they were on antivenene, a couple of IVs and sedation within 30 minutes of the strikes. Herpetologists we know say it has no affect whatsoever but I'm not sure if much research has been done - lets face it.....subject a dog to envenomation then hit it with Vitamin C to see if it works. I think not. I'll ask my cousin when I speak to him next - he breeds venomous snakes and milks them for antivenene. You never know - I think he's eccentric enough to experiment on himself.

As for shoosnake....I did look into that but my cousin said he doused a rag in it only to find the snake happily made its way over the rag. I didnt buy any.

When buying the syringes its important to know that the stuff is really viscous so a large gauge is needed (or small - I never did get that terminology correct but get the big needles). I actually had a week long course of intravenous vitamin c myself - the stuff is incredibly thick, takes forever to go in and is super cold but it worked for me when Doctors said it would only give me expensive peepees. Anyway - if a dog is bitten, dont stuff around looking for a vein. Jab it intramuscularly - is that a word I've just made up? You get my drift anyway.

And snake ID is really important as Vets are no longer given the venom test kit - all of the hospitals are using them. Doesnt that just say something for what's happening with this drought!

Good luck and I hope you never need it.

[Pitchick]

Can i ask, how is it administered with the needle..is it under the skin or into the muscle?

[Pitchick]

Sorry, must of missed BD4E post..so i guess its in the muscle

[BoxerJim]

There was a Vet emergency medicine conference in Sydney in 2005 collating a mammoth amount of knowledge and research on snake bite, a subject in which I have a keen interest (which may come from having a farm with dogs, goats, cattle and cats..... all of who in the past 25 years have met foul play with a snake at some time or other!) I read a summary of the findings, one of which concerned Vitamin C use.

"Vit C has no protective effects whatsoever on snake evenomation"

It was explained that of all the thousands of dogs seen for snake bite (and lets face it we have the most venomous ones here) 75% have been bitten with a lethal dose of venom and will have no chance of survivial without antivenom.

That leaves 25% of dogs which survive without the need for antivenom... the Vets either just placing the dog under observation to ensure that he isnt worsening, or giving supportive treatment.

Now, if we have used Vit C injections on one of these dogs (the 25% who have been bitten with a NON-lethal dose of venom), when the dog survives as he will, it is human nature to attribute the success to that Vit C, and we do it very passionately sometimes! Some of us really beleive it and swear by it till the cows come home, because we have given it and seen the dog recover- we are adament it worked and no one can tell us otherwise! But in reality, for these cases where the Vit C injections "appeared to have worked", well the patient was going to recover anyway. One could have given Vit B, sterile water, or waved a wand....and it would have apparently worked. For the passionate believer however, it is a difficult concept to get one's head around!

Hope that info helps!

(Theres a heap more on snake bite and interesting cases if any are interested...)

Cheers, BJ

PS: Being a naturally inclined chap I was a tad dissappointed to learn of the above... however my faith in Vit C is not all lost.....

As many know, Vit C is one chemical however in which there is demonstrable benefit in the treatment of some viral diseases in dogs, so just because ascorbic acid (Vit C) doesnt assist in snake or tick bite, it doesnt mean that it isnt beneficial in selected conditions and is still a valuable drug in the right situations.

PPS some more interesting statistics:

Dog survivial rate with correct antivenom=75-91%

Dog survival rate without antivenom=25-31%,

There are 3 causes death from snake bite envenomation:

1. treatment was delayed

2. The wrong type of antivenom was used (the Vet needs accurate identification of the snake! Bring the dead snake in with the bitten dog. If the dead snake cannot be brought in you must allow the Vet to use the snake venom detection kit if he is to use the correct antivenom.

3. Insufficient antivenom was given... a common prob for us dog owners as we have to pay for the antivenom not like humans where we are subsidised by the govt. Generally the later you bring the dog in, the more advanced the signs and the more antivenom is required and the harder it hits our pocket!

PPPS...I was only going write a short message... but lastly something that i hope will save many from the same mistake...the panel said that recently there was a 4th cause of death... people trying to give medications/potions by mouth.... most snakes in Aus cause paralysis, and as such most patients cant effectively swallow so if you give anything by mouth, there is a good chance it'll go straight into the lungs and cause fatal aspiration..... they have been seeing snake bite cases presented dead or in terminal throws of gasping for breath where owners have given something (I'm again sad to say often Vitamin C liquid) by syringe down the mouth and guess what.... they are dying not of the snake bite, but of aspiration pneumonia! Quite logical when you think about it. It is tragic that many of these cases could have had their snake bite successfully treated, and their best mate survive, but instead the owners killed their own dog with the Vit C. We don't hear much about such cases, which are obviously more common than we realise. I guess as a dog owner, the realisation that you have killed your own dog would be tragic and you'd be so filled with guilt, the less said the better.

So the message here is....for our best pal's sake.. if he's been bitten, then give nothing, I mean nothing by mouth

[morgan]

"Vit C has no protective effects whatsoever on snake evenomation"

So how was this conclusion arrived at? Were all cases of vit c successes attributed to the 25% who would have survived anyway? Were vit c failures assessed for timing, amount given, subsequent vet treatment etc - all variables that could have a huge impact? How many of the 75% who die without antivenom are given vit C? Or are they just left to die?

From my experience of orthodox medicine, practitioners tend to think that anything over a few thousand mgs is a massive dose, which is sheer ignorance. An average goat manufactures 13,000 mgs of vit c daily and will make over 100,000mgs daily if very stressed, so giving 5,000 mg to a bitten dog would probably make little difference. It is just like the studies that "prove" that taking 1,000 mgs a day doesn't prevent colds - of course it doesn't, more is needed than that, but to use this to prove that vit c doesn't prevent colds in general is manipulation of the truth.

A friend of mine is married to a vet who studied and worked in Holland - they have both used vit c for snakes, ticks etc for years. She said even Adelaide Zoo always uses it.

PS - I would never give anything by mouth to a snakebite victim either, unless it was in the first few minutes before any symptoms had appeared.

[Erny]

... giving 5,000 mg to a bitten dog would probably make little difference.

Sorry if I missed it, but how many mg would be suggested for, say, a medium/large dog in the event of snake bite?

If I were in a position where getting to the Vet within a feasible period of time for treatment were not possible, or if there were two of us and one could get going with the driving whilst the other administered care, I would probably give the Vitamin C injection regardless of opinion, on the basis that it can't hurt to try.

[BoxerJim]

"Vit C has no protective effects whatsoever on snake evenomation"

Hi Morgan,

I'll try and help on those questions!

"So how was this conclusion arrived at?"

It seems from large numbers of cases over the many many years of data of actual cases at emergency centres

"Were all cases of vit c successes attributed to the 25% who would have survived anyway?"

Yes. It seems unambiguously the message.

"Were vit c failures assessed for timing, amount given, subsequent vet treatment etc - all variables that..."

2 things may help you here...

"regardless of ROA (which I think stands for route of administration??) or dose from as low as 50mg to as high as 100,000 mg given IM in an 18Kg dog, there is no detectable improvement in survivability"

it appears once all these fail to produce statistical improvement in survivability then failure is failure. indeed they are all variables that can make a difference. (Also perhaps include where they were injected, in the vein, in the muscle or under the skin?)

When they all fail, they all fail. Thats alot of needles 100,000mg... thats 2 bottle of the most common preparations, and I'd say the poor old fella must have been sore all over due to that amount of thick injection!

"How many of the 75% who die without antivenom are given vit C?"

Being a summary it doesn't say, however, the conference is called "emergency medicine and critical care" published by Post graduate Foundation in veterinary science, the university of Sydney, proceedings # 358 feb 2005. I don't have a copy of it, but perhaps to understand the details it may mean some eyeballing and digging.

"Or are they just left to die?"

I doubt well-meaning dog owners would have them "left them to die" as you put it. that would be unthinkable. Sadly, it seems from the comment about "delaying correct dx and seeking specific antiserum" that folk apparently give the Vit C and are waiting for it to work, and those that are bitten with a lethal dose, then a great number die waiting. Many are rushed to the emerg clinic once the Vit C is seen not to work, so I would say that would be at the later stages of envenomation or arrive deceased rather than left to die.

As for other cases, I would imagine that the accumulation of large numbers of cases would have a similarly large numbers of varying backgrounds.... eg died on the way to the Vet, no one was home at the time and died, and a plethera of other circumstances ... all very very sad as you can imagine.

i do know that many folk for financial reasons opt not for the antiserum, and hope that their dog is in the 25% which recover without the antiserum. Although it must be very difficult for the vet to have a product that can potentially save a life and not be allowed to use it, in the clinic situation IV drips and supportive care is given until a definitive outcome can be seen, so certainly in a hospital situation, not left to die.

"From my experience of orthodox medicine, practitioners tend to think that anything over a few thousand mgs is a massive dose, which is sheer ignorance."

Depends what condition one is using it for I guess. Although I am not an expert, it is common knowledge that quite low doses are required for urine acidification in urinary tract probs, medium to near toxic doses are required IV for antiviral effects (too higher doses as you probably know are quite toxic to the body and make one quite ill..ususally Gastric and intestinal signs....alas I have been a recepient of such! ).

Regarding ignorance of practitioners in your experience ... can't really help on that one!

"An average goat manufactures 13,000 mgs of vit c daily and will make over 100,000mgs daily if very stressed, so giving 5,000 mg to a bitten dog would probably make little difference."

From the sounds of things you have a good handle on that... If 100,000mg in the 18Kg dog didn't do anything, then I doubt 5000 would do much more than sting at the muscle injection site!

"It is just like the studies that "prove" that taking 1,000 mgs a day doesn't prevent colds - of course it doesn't, more is needed than that, but to use this to prove that vit c doesn't prevent colds in general is manipulation of the truth."

I have an opposite opinion (sorry!) I beleive it does at least help prevent some of the respiratory viruses.. esp in cases of marginal intake or excessive utilisation eg hi exercise. there is a recent (well last year)study worthy of checking out if you havent already.. "" A Japanese study on vitamin C and colds was published in 2006 in the European Journal of Clinical Nutrition.. summary The risk of contracting three or more colds in the five-year period was decreased by 66% by the daily intake of the 500-mg vitamin C supplement. There was little difference in severity or duration of colds between subjects in the low-dose or high-dose groups. This study deserves special mention because it was much longer (five years) than the trials reported by Hemila and covered many cold seasons in which subjects were probably exposed repeatedly to many cold viruses.""

Dunno if this transcribes to aussie colds... but I know I take it.

Anyway... we'd better stick to my interest and the aim of the forum...dogs.....

"A friend of mine is married to a vet who studied and worked in Holland - they have both used vit c for snakes, ticks etc for years. She said even Adelaide Zoo always uses it."

I reckon you are dead right, it is still used in many circles, for many varying things, and very commonly where dietary intake or body production may be insufficient. possibly fewer may use it for snake bite and tick in the future now that the conference was held in Sydney as I imagine there would have been many vets there. I am sure it has a continuing use in chronic viral disease.

"PS - I would never give anything by mouth to a snakebite victim either, unless it was in the first few minutes before any symptoms had appeared."

Sounds like a wise plan to me!

[trifecta]

If you do not have the injectable stuff you can rub vitamin c powder in to the wound and it will be absorbed into the bloodstream.Also force vitamin c tablets down there throat its not as useful but it might buy you some time.

Please DO NOT rub anything into the wound, as the vet may need to use the wound site to identify the snake from the venom. The most important thing with snakebite is to keep the dog still & calm, & carefully strap the limb if the dog has been bitten on the leg.

Unfortunately some dogs who are seemingly treated successfully with antivenene die due to other complications associated with the kidneys & liver. Some dogs, know a Springer here in my town, can be bitten on several different occasions & still survive! The local vet here years ago was a very compassionate lady & if people could not afford the antivenene she would sleep with sedated cats & dogs on drips on her bed. You would be surprised how many came through, especially cats, who would sleep for five days, wake up, shake themselves & be as right as rain!