Important Pts Question

[GoldenGirl85]

With old/ill cats - with veins hard to use , we sometimes used to inject into a kidney ... and with tiny babies .. an injection into the abdominal cavity . These methods work, and in puppies, it just takes a few minutes .

Poor veins are a hazard in human medicine as well

I like injecting directly into the heart too but unless they are unconscious I gas them down first.

Ive only ever seen a couple of animals get PTS (work experience) one was a gorgeous Samoyed whose owner didn't want him anymore (apparently he bit someone) well, the vet injected this boy twice in the vein in his front leg, with no effect, so she did one last one directly into his heart...that did it Im never going to forget that dog, he was so gorgeous

I do venepuncture (on people) every single day, sometimes you miss veins, and when the person is sick or elderly, it makes it that much harder, even if you can see the vein, those damn things roll away from the needle or they just blow if you go straight through it

[Staranais]

I'm sorry your friend had that experience.

They tell us to place a catheter first where possible (as Lucknow describes) to avoid missing the vein in front of the owner, & that's mostly what I've seen done, but I guess every vet has their own way of doing things.

[Cosmolo]

I have seen many dogs pts (and cats). I had never seen a bad one until a few years ago. I took the dog in, they sedated him but didn't have enough sedation- vet said, he'd be right. He wasn't and proceeded to stumble around the room for half an hour before the vet finally gave him the lethal injection. This was an aggressive dog who had to be muzzled and restrained for the first injection (sedation) and then restrained again for the second. I just don't understand why the first injection given was not the lethal one and it has seriously put me off ever having sedation before PTS if i am in that situation again. This dog was mentally still there but physically losing control and the fear and stress he endured is something i will never be able to get out of mind. No euthanasia has stayed with me like that one.

[Akay]

We had two dogs PTS last year. The first one, Benny, was really quick, the vet had no problem with the veins. The second dog, Bronte, had right and left side heart failure and he went downhill extremely quickly. We had booked the vet to come to our house that afternoon to put him to sleep, but in the morning when he fell over and pooed himself we rushed him down because we knew he didn't have long and we wanted him to be out of his discomfort asap. The vet had a lot of trouble finding a good vein and because his blood pressure was so low due to the heart failure the fluid wasn't being taken up. I'm sure it took 10+ minutes, it was so very difficult to experience. The only thing that made it bearable was that the vet was very, very gentle and he aplogised and told us the problems he was experiencing. He looked very sad and disappointed himself having it take so long. Little Bronte was not at all upset with it as he seemed to be lying there quite comfortably. The vet was so gentle and didn't force anything.

I do think if you have a very sick dog where there might be blood pressure issues then people should be prepared for it not going as smoothly as you would like :-(

Edited May 5, 2011 by Akay

[Mason_Gibbs]

I have seen a few dogs and cats PTS with nothing going wrong butvi have seen a horse get half a shot and knock a vet out during the procedure which was awful for the poor owner.

[cavNrott]

We had problems with finding a suitable vein when my old, sick girl Faith was pts. We expected problems because in the course of her many previous surgeries the vet had to find a vein in the hind leg. Her veins, he told me in his usual straight forward friendly manner "were stuffed".

When her cancer told us it was time and Faith could not go on without suffering, the poor vet tried both front legs and both hind legs. Eventually he found a vein in one of her hind legs. He was comfortable with me being present and I was able to keep Faith calm by massaging her ears and talking to her to distract her. Faith was a very calm dog. The vet was more stressed than either Faith or me while he probed around all her legs looking for a vein. I know our vet well and know how good he is. He had my confidence and trust. He's always taken great care of my Rottweilers and they all loved him.

At one stage he got the needle into a vein in the first hind leg but told me it didn't feel right. I said if it didn't feel right it wasn't right. He said "no" and went on to the last of her 4 legs and eventually he was able to place the catheter and Faith passed quickly and peacefully.

He thanked me afterwards for being calm and reassuring in a difficult and upsetting situation. I didn't feel at all calm but I knew my job was to keep reassuring Faith and making sure she remained calm. My job was easy in comparison to the poor vets job.

This was the only difficult euthansia I've witnessed. Up until Faith it had always gone quietly and quickly.

[lucknow]

I have seen a few dogs and cats PTS with nothing going wrong butvi have seen a horse get half a shot and knock a vet out during the procedure which was awful for the poor owner.

I believe our vets usually sedate the horses first (I dont go out on calls so knowledge is 2nd hand) but one of the vets had a hard time recently. She went out to euth a horse that was down and had been colicking much of the day. Skipped the sedation as she thought he had no chance of getting up but he did, and before he went down he took out a fence and almost her head. She said shes never skipping step 1 again!

[Kirty]

When our old Burmese was PTS a few years ago, they had terrible trouble finding a vein because he was so ill. It was distressing for us but thankfully Oscar was his usual calm self and didn't stress. Once they finally got it, he passed quickly and peacefully.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

I've adopted a lot of old dogs and lost a lot, since 2005, sometimes 3 in a year. Hard on my heart and I always pray that the end won't be terrible, I feel so sorry for your friend and anyone that has to experience what you described. I have been relatively lucky.

one of my old girls had to be given gas, her back legs had gone but this dog's fighting spirit was amazing. She was about 14 and had had a terrible life, I'd had her for a couple of years. She needed grooming and required full sedation. without it and only a small pill she once took 3 of us (inc a prof groomer) 2 hours to groom. She was a small dog, a Westie cross. She fought against the gas and in the end I just became too distressed to stay, they came out to get me once she'd gone but I didn't go back in, I was so upset.

At Christmas i lost my beloved Pepper to cancer of some kind, she was very unwell when i took her in and they took her away to put a catheter in, they had lots of trouble and were gone a long time because she had low blood pressure by then. Eventually she came in with a catheter in a back leg. She was happy enough and went quietly whilst munching on some schmackos ....

I was very distressed with another dog I took in, he had a brain tumour, but the vet would not let me hold him (it wasn't my own vet as she was suddenly called away, I couldn't not have it done as it took so much for me to get there and do it although it was the right thing). I always hold my dogs and was so upset I couldn't speak and insist. I'll never forget that either.

[Isabel964]

Gosh, I knew the PTS thing was difficult for all of us, but I had no idea about all this. Life is so tough sometimes.

Some of you have experienced awful things

I see that getting the catheter in can be hard, and that is not nice - but my friends dog had some of the PTS dose in her....but not the whole dose. My friend said her dog was screaming.

Question: If the vet goes to PTS a dog, and it goes wrong, and the dog is very distressed..being half given a dose, can't they just quickly sedate it, or does sedation need a vein as well? Is there nothing a vet can do to stop the dog being distressed aside from continue with trying to PTS the dog? 20 minutes of distress would feel like hours or weeks to the dog and to the owner.

Edited May 5, 2011 by Sky

[Cosmolo]

The sedation used in the example i gave was intravenous too. Which is why i don't understand the need for it.

[Swizzlestick]

I don't know why more vets don't have IV catheters placed in patients prior to the final injection. Baffles me.

Makes for a much less stressful event for the animal, and doesn't leave the owner traumatised as is the case with the OP's friend if things don't go according to plan.

[Staff'n'Toller]

Gosh, I knew the PTS thing was difficult for all of us, but I had no idea about all this. Life is so tough sometimes.

Question: If the vet goes to PTS a dog, and it goes wrong, and the dog is very distressed..being half given a dose, can't they just quickly sedate it, or does sedation need a vein as well? Is there nothing a vet can do to stop the dog being distressed aside from continue with trying to PTS the dog? 20 minutes of distress would feel like hours or weeks to the dog and to the owner.

If the dog gets a small amount of euthanasia solution they go into 'excitement phase' which is like when you would be waking up out of an anaesthetic but we generally don't remember it. We try to avoid it at all costs.

An intramuscular injection will hurt the dog and still take 5-10 minutes to work. There's no real point to doing intravenous sedation as it takes time to place an IV catheter so the vein doesn't collapse and you can use it afterward for euthanasia solution. Using a face mask and gas also upsets the dog as they hate the smell. <--- All of this creates more tension and generally upsets the owner more. The quicker it is all over the better.

Euthanasia is a subjective thing, it depends on what's going on with the dog's body system (blood pressure) and medications and temperament. Sometimes with pets that have had numerous surgeries and not a stable temperament well it is just a crap situation for Vet and owner.

In the worst case scenario we might take the dog into the other room and do a quick intra-cardiac injection and rush them straight back to the owner as death is immediate after an intra-cardiac- and no owner wants to see their dog injected into the chest cavity it's far too upsetting.

Hope that helps with your question.

Your friend may benefit from having a chat to an impartial Vet that wasn't present, even one who is not attached to the same clinic, to help ease how she feels about things. Often it can really help.

[Isabel964]

So once an IV Catheter is in, its in and won't 'fall out'? I thought that is what came out with my friend's dog.

Oh I know...the catheter can be put in properly, then a length of tubing, and the final injection can go in the end of the tubing which might be a metre from the dog? Is that right? .....I think that is how they put my Aby to sleep, and it seemed like it was just our cat, hubby and I...the vet was towards the back of the room, the cat lay on a towel, the catheter covered by part of the towel he was resting on.

So then this is what we should ask for.

A catheter put in place, then sedation, then final injection?

Edited: Thanks Staff'n' Toller, your info does help. I'll try to explain what I have learned here to my friend because she seemed puzzled how the vet who has been outstanding had these issues with PTS her beautiful girl. I think it might too upsetting for her to see this thread. And I will suggest she might, when she is ready, want to talk to another vet to understand what happened. What I told her this afternoon was that her girl had a wonderful loving beautiful life with her for 14 years, and that is what she will eventually remember and what to focus on. I think she will need significant time to get over the trauma, shock and guilt she feels over the incident though.

Edited May 5, 2011 by Sky

[Staff'n'Toller]

I don't know why more vets don't have IV catheters placed in patients prior to the final injection. Baffles me.

Makes for a much less stressful event for the animal, and doesn't leave the owner traumatised as is the case with the OP's friend if things don't go according to plan.

They can still blow in the time it takes you to move the animal if they have friable veins.

[lucknow]

Catheters can shift especially if the animal is moving a lot but it would be pretty rare if it were taped in place properly in the time frame for a euthanasia. Blockages would be rare also. a lot of vets still use needle and syringe and these obviously cause more problems. I think some are just lazy and sadly a few are so cheap the few cents they cost matter to them. We dont always use the extension tubing, it depends on the situation. When we do they cost us nothing as we can reuse old ones (dont need to be sterile in this case obviously).

If your pet has a catheter in (and preferably extension tubing so they dont need to touch them again) you dont need the sedation from then on. sometimes it is helpful when a catheter is not already in.

[Silverblue]

I have held many dogs while they were PTS & have never seen this sort of thing happen.

If the owners are wanting to stay, we always take the dog out to the surgery & place a cathater and then flush it with saline to ensure everything is fine before taking the dog back to the owner.

The trouble with older dogs is that it is a lot harder to find a vein & also if the dog has heart problems the lethabarb takes a lot longer to circulate through the dogs system, hence it taking longer to take effect.

Sedation before inserting a cathater is extremely difficult as it relaxes the dog and the heart slows down, making it hard to find a vein.

I am sorry to hear your friend had to go through this, I can imagine how hard it would have been for her.

[angelsophie]

My 23 yr old cat( had her since i was 5) needed help to the bridge and I was prepared from what I had seen when I did school work experience from the vet she was old and it was simple and quick and what she needed after a long battle even though it broke my heart

My heart and avatar dog Sophie died 2 years ago. It was a sudden illness, she was only 11 yrs old (this seemed young after my cat). I will always be grateful that her vet gave her a sedative she came back to me and they administered the sedative while she was in my arms and she went to sleep quietly and they gave me and my husband time with her alone , when I was ready they euthanised her. If the times ever comes again this would be my choice.

[Jigsaw]

I remember years ago when vet nursing, a cat who had to have an injection straight into the heart. Two intravenous injections did not work, I can't remember now why. Fortunately (sort of) the owner was too distraught at her cat needing to be pts to stay in the room to witness any of it. Will always stay with me. I assisted with the autopsy and the poor thing was filled with cancer. Probably the saddest pts was a budgie with a tumour, it was so quick.

[cowanbree]

For me the entire point of staying with my pet is so that they are comfortable. Allowing the vet to take the dog out the back to insert a catheter totally defeats that and while it may be more pleasant for me it isn't for my pet as they are now having this procedure done with strangers. As hard as it is it is my job to be calm and comfort my pet and that is the most important thing.