Important Pts Question

[OSoSwift]

Personally I do not ask for sedation for small animals, but definately do for horses. My Clyde was sedated when I had to have her euthed just before Christmas.

My dogs are used to being held, they are used with having legs held and are fine with a good ole vet poke around and check up.

All of my animals have layed quietly on the table, I usually hold up their vein, they are injected and are gone very quickly. I think that animals are more likely to get stressed and fight if they are not used to being restrained and that is why I start with my puppies the day the come home. You never know when you may need it.

I can hold mine quite firmly if required and they do not fight me at all.

I have had my DCM dog take a little while to pass properly due to her crap circulation, but she was totally unconcious at the time.

[persephone]

cowanbree - sometimes though, an animal IS calmer without a stressed owner holding it/hovering over it ,and therefore procedures often go much more smoothly

Edited May 5, 2011 by persephone

[Swizzlestick]

I don't know why more vets don't have IV catheters placed in patients prior to the final injection. Baffles me.

Makes for a much less stressful event for the animal, and doesn't leave the owner traumatised as is the case with the OP's friend if things don't go according to plan.

They can still blow in the time it takes you to move the animal if they have friable veins.

I know they can, but the chances of this happening are very low (if taped in correctly) compared to blowing the vein during venepuncture.

[pebbles]

I've always been with my dogs from start to finish, hard as it is. When the new Vets took over at the clinic I go to and I had to have Sam PTS, a nurse came in and went to take Sam from me, told her that was not on and she insisted. I won however and held him in my arms for the final time. Then had another 'discussion' about sedating first. The previous Vets were very understanding, taken a while to get a good relationship with the new ones but it's slowly happening.

[Bilbo Baggins]

When we recently had our old girl PTS at differen vet. I was told we could be in nthere with her. But the vet insisited on putting a cannula in without us being present. Then we came in for the injection.She had suddenly gone hill so I do not think you can avoid collpsed veins by going "early".

I would have prefrred to be there the whole time but it was not to be.

[Staff'n'Toller]

Edited: Thanks Staff'n' Toller, your info does help. I'll try to explain what I have learned here to my friend because she seemed puzzled how the vet who has been outstanding had these issues with PTS her beautiful girl. I think it might too upsetting for her to see this thread. And I will suggest she might, when she is ready, want to talk to another vet to understand what happened. What I told her this afternoon was that her girl had a wonderful loving beautiful life with her for 14 years, and that is what she will eventually remember and what to focus on. I think she will need significant time to get over the trauma, shock and guilt she feels over the incident though.

It's hard to understand what actually happened without knowing the dogs history of illness and whether it was that excitement phase of anaesthesia or the dog was genuinely distressed. From what I can gather it might be the former but I guess we'd only find out by getting a copy of the visit history.

It's probably not advantageous for your friend to have a copy of that though, will most likely just cause more upset.

There's a chaplain at Lort Smith Animal Hospital - I'm sure they would welcome anyone, even if not a client of the hospital to make a time to have a chat. Other than a caring Vet she would be the best person to see as she would understand the euth process and how things can go 'not as expected'. See here.

If she is still having trouble in the next 4-8 weeks pm me I will see if my boss is happy to have a chat to her whilst remaining impartial to her regular Vet. He tends to know *exactly* the right things to say in these situations.

[frufru]

I would not like my dogs to have a canula inserted for pts without me being present - as several have said - the whole point is that you are with them - my dogs are happier with me around and I want their final moments to be about feeling loved. If mine have to have surgery I stay until they are on the table and tubed - obviously I have an understanding vet. I know from working as a groomer that some peoples dogs are better when they are not there but as Cowanbee and others have said this is a matter of handling and training. When one of my old girls developed a phobia about the vets as a symtom of her cancer we put her on clomicalm and undertook retraining to work through her anxiety as we did not want her to be anxious when she went to the vets for her final visit. It worked and she passed very peacefully in our arms.

[Tilly]

When they put our rottie to sleep - they set it up like they were putting in a drip and double checked they were in a vein before they gave him the injection.

Making the decision is pts is painful enough without it not going smoothly and causing more distress ...

[Bilbo Baggins]

I would not like my dogs to have a canula inserted for pts without me being present - as several have said - the whole point is that you are with them - my dogs are happier with me around and I want their final moments to be about feeling loved. If mine have to have surgery I stay until they are on the table and tubed - obviously I have an understanding vet. I know from working as a groomer that some peoples dogs are better when they are not there but as Cowanbee and others have said this is a matter of handling and training. When one of my old girls developed a phobia about the vets as a symtom of her cancer we put her on clomicalm and undertook retraining to work through her anxiety as we did not want her to be anxious when she went to the vets for her final visit. It worked and she passed very peacefully in our arms.

frufru I was noy impressed but the vet would not have us there. I said I wanted to stay and he sid we had to go. No way would he listen.

[kelpiekaye]

We had a Rotty staying at the kennels I once worked at that had to be pts as she had damaged her back and was paralyzed. When the vet tried the vein it collapsed so he put it in her heart. She went very quickly. The distressing thing was that she was a pretty cranky dog and vet (her regular vet) said the most important thing was not to be bitten ourselves. I had to make up a device with a tube and rope to prevent her from biting the vet or me. It wasnt till she was just about gone that I could give her a cuddle. Poor old girl.

[Isabel964]

Edited: Thanks Staff'n' Toller, your info does help. I'll try to explain what I have learned here to my friend because she seemed puzzled how the vet who has been outstanding had these issues with PTS her beautiful girl. I think it might too upsetting for her to see this thread. And I will suggest she might, when she is ready, want to talk to another vet to understand what happened. What I told her this afternoon was that her girl had a wonderful loving beautiful life with her for 14 years, and that is what she will eventually remember and what to focus on. I think she will need significant time to get over the trauma, shock and guilt she feels over the incident though.

It's hard to understand what actually happened without knowing the dogs history of illness and whether it was that excitement phase of anaesthesia or the dog was genuinely distressed. From what I can gather it might be the former but I guess we'd only find out by getting a copy of the visit history.

It's probably not advantageous for your friend to have a copy of that though, will most likely just cause more upset.

There's a chaplain at Lort Smith Animal Hospital - I'm sure they would welcome anyone, even if not a client of the hospital to make a time to have a chat. Other than a caring Vet she would be the best person to see as she would understand the euth process and how things can go 'not as expected'. See here.

If she is still having trouble in the next 4-8 weeks pm me I will see if my boss is happy to have a chat to her whilst remaining impartial to her regular Vet. He tends to know *exactly* the right things to say in these situations.

Thank you, that is so sweet of you. Somehow I doubt my friend will seek help, but I will certainly tell her about the chaplain at Lort Smith and your offer.

I think we all have learned something fro this thread - to ask our vet exactly how they do the PTS process. That way we know, we are ready and if we want to be there while they put the catheter in and their policy is not to let us, then we can negotiate or find another vet if its something we want.

Hugs to everybody, we have all been through the PTS process of a fur that is a family member....and its so heartbreaking, even in the best of circumstances

[GoldenGirl85]

cowanbree - sometimes though, an animal IS calmer without a stressed owner holding it/hovering over it ,and therefore procedures often go much more smoothly

So true, the same often goes for children, it is often easier if the parents aren't there because it eases there anxiety, it's amazing what vibes our kids and pets pick up off us, even if we think we're calm

[Danielle]

Question for anyone with experience. Is a general heart stick humane? Is it legal in Australia?

The reason I ask is that I'm on another dog forum from the states and from what has been said there the heart stick has been banned in different counties due to being cruel.

Can anyone enlighten me on the facts of this way of pts. What does it involve and is it painless?

[GoldenGirl85]

I am unsure on how the 'poison' works on the body, but for the dog I saw get jabbed in the heart... he felt no pain

I would think it would simply act quicker as the heart is the pump in the circulatory system, so it will get pumped around the body faster than it would by simply injecting a leg

[lucknow]

Question for anyone with experience. Is a general heart stick humane? Is it legal in Australia?

The reason I ask is that I'm on another dog forum from the states and from what has been said there the heart stick has been banned in different counties due to being cruel.

Can anyone enlighten me on the facts of this way of pts. What does it involve and is it painless?

Afaik no problems with the legalities of euthanasing this way in Australia.

We use it routinely on very small animals and bigger ones that for whatever reason we cant use the traditional intravenous method.

Lay the animal on it's right side (so the left side chest with the closest access to the heart is up) and then simply palpate to feel the heart (so you are directly over it) slide the needle through the ribs to the heart which is usually not deep in the the littlies drawing back on the syringe until you get the rush of blood to show you are in the heart and inject. As it is an overdose of anaesthetic (and can be used as such, I know an older vet who has used it for cows in desperate cirsumstances in the past) it is instant.

the only thing I dont like about it is that it can be painful as you put the needle in (some will struggle) which is why I often gas them down first.

Every circumstance is different so what is appropriate for one animal wont be for another.