Merrirose Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 I have not read the entire thread though I will say that I have no problem with vet students operating on dogs that are going to be PTS before they are PTS as long as they are treated with respect and in a humane manner the entire time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoofnHoof Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 I probably didn't make myself clear about being squeamish and moral objections, the cupboard was bare today and I had to eat ice cream and am a bit all over the place Ok, try again, I think desensitisation is important for the reasons above, you need to make what you do automatic, like you do with driving. The first time you get set loose in a car you are a bundle of nerves but after a while you can concentrate on the important stuff because most you just do without thinking. I agree there are detrimental consequences to seeing lots of death, but rather than becoming callous I think it goes the other way and causes emotional harm, especially in the case of vets. I really can't see that doing a few non-recovery surgeries while a student can have that much impact though, unless you are already fragile. As for abattoir workers, I think they already have to have a certain mind set before they apply for the job because you already know it involves killing a lot of animals. Lol I sympathize with the bare cupboards mine are looking very sad as well I don't know I mean I've dealt with some pretty horrific injuries with horses and despite having bugger all training I can get in there and do what needs to be done without falling to pieces so I'm not convinced it's necessary. I'm just not sure that this level of desensitization is necessary or even beneficial. I think there is no doubt that how the students are indoctrinated to it also impacts on whether it becomes problematic. At the particular uni I'm thinking of there is most definitely the mentality of 'if you have an objection then you just can't hack it' which I think complicates the issue further. I've witnessed and assisted with all sorts of procedures including euthanasia, I can understand the desire for as much practice as possible but I do wonder if it's as harmless as people seem to think. Either way I am glad that there are unis which produce competent graduates without the use of non recoveries and I would like to see some long term research on the psychological and philosophical implications as I find it a very interesting issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Sounds like the Nuremburg Defence to me. Desensitisation to animal suffering goes a long way to explaining the attitude of vets who would rather see a dog dead than bred. Good grief. First a comparison between vet students and a Nazi War criminal, now the Nuremberg Defense? It's starting to get pretty tiresome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Sounds like the Nuremburg Defence to me. Desensitisation to animal suffering goes a long way to explaining the attitude of vets who would rather see a dog dead than bred. Good grief. First a comparison between vet students and a Nazi War criminal, now the Nuremberg Defense? It's starting to get pretty tiresome. Someone should have invoked Godwin's Law before now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 (edited) Someone should have invoked Godwin's Law before now. This someone did! The "Nuremberg Defence" was that people committing war crimes were "only following orders".. how that relates to the topic under discussion sure beats me. Edited May 11, 2011 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 I would like to see some long term research on the psychological and philosophical implications as I find it a very interesting issue. This is a very ripe debate, from either position there are pros and cons that are valid arguments and this is probably reflected in the diversity of policies that universities themselves have formed. I don't think it would be unreasonable to research the psychological effects either, it's clearly one of those jobs that takes a toll on many and if we are to value vets, we should learn more about how we can help them do their job without making unreasonable personal sacrifice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Someone should have invoked Godwin's Law before now. This someone did! Thank goodness, I thought DOL was losing some of it's flavour! I think JD should probably have a look at the extraordinary influence of the Nuremberg trials on ethics committees, and why it's very difficult to make the sort of errors of judgment that he is implying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raz Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 The "Nuremberg Defence" was that people committing war crimes were "only following orders".. how that relates to the topic under discussion sure beats me. it doesnt relate at all and I'm finding the comparisons between vet/science students to war criminals pretty damn offensive. John seems to have a thing for throwing nazi germany references into threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 (edited) !I think JD should probably have a look at the extraordinary influence of the Nuremberg trials on ethics committees, and why it's very difficult to make the sort of errors of judgment that he is implying. The Nuremberg trials were the genesis of the UN Declaration of Human Rights. They were the first time live language translation services (now standard in the UN Assembly) were offered to participants. Before casually tossing references to Nazis and WWII into the mix, John Davey might care to note that some here have spent a fair bit of time studying that period of history. Its probably the first and only time you'll see an Admiral on the victorious side (Nimitz) give evidence in support of an enemy Admiral on trial.. didnt work. Donitz got sentenced anyway. Oh well, he did escape a death sentence I suppose. Edited May 11, 2011 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Household Dog Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 (edited) I think ethics is something that really has to be discussed, in the public. Ethics committees are possibly better equipped to investigate, all the possible consequences of an action. They are not, any more qualifed to make judgments, than you or I. Would you let a committee make your moral judgements for you? Not really taking up a side here, but it would be a sad day, where we leave our ethics to specialists. I can really see both sides of the argument, where it comes to using these dogs for surgery. Edited May 14, 2011 by Household Dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Are You Serious Jo Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Do you know that ethics committees are comprised of people from the general community as well as animal rights people. They have a set criteria of category of people they need to have on there, it must include laymen as well as professionals. I think you can look up the committee reps on the uni websites, but don't quote me on that. So it's not like there are a bunch of people in secret just protecting their own interests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Household Dog Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Do you know that ethics committees are comprised of people from the general community as well as animal rights people. They have a set criteria of category of people they need to have on there, it must include laymen as well as professionals. I think you can look up the committee reps on the uni websites, but don't quote me on that. So it's not like there are a bunch of people in secret just protecting their own interests. Yes I am aware of that. I am not saying they are wrong, by any stretch of the imagination. It's just that ethics are such a debatable topic, that they can be just as right, or wrong as anyone else. They are useful, however in addressing issues that are clearly unethical. It can also recommend ways of making sure processes take an ethicla path. I am just saying, the fact that it has been ratified, by such a committee, certainly does not end the debate. Although it is regrettable, I can understand the use of dogs for medical training. I can also understand them being euthanised. Unfortunately many of these animals, won't be adopted and will merely have to suffer post operative pain, before being put down. Blame the people who dump them. IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flick_Mac Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 There is no post-op pain. They are not recovered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackie_a1 Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Flick is right. They are put to sleep before they even wake so the argument of pain is irrelevant. Just as we do not feel anything during surgery nor do the animals. I still do not understand the argument of those who disagree? Is it because the dogs are being euthanised or because they are being operated on? What are the arguments that it shouldn't proceed? Because healthy animals are being euthanised? Well that happens on a daily occurrence. Or because simply there is better methods then surgically practicing on real animals? Which are? Dummies? Or simulations? All of which are not the real thing and do not give the students the confidence or basis for real surgery. It's not about getting one side of the argument to cross over to the other, it is about understanding why one side of the argument supports the side it does. Which is back to my question. Please specifically someone who opposes the surgery tell me the reasons you do? Aside from the fact you think it's morally and ethically wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Are You Serious Jo Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Good luck, I've never been able to get an answer about why they think it is cruel in this thread or others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackie_a1 Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 It's ok Rev I'm patient I'll wait Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Are You Serious Jo Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 How long you got because I think our Vulcan like logic processes have scared them away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackie_a1 Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Totally off topic but this reminds me of a post on fb on the RSPCA site someone said to me quote, 'YOU CANNOT BE AN ANIMAL LOVER IF YOU EAT MEAT PERIOD.' So basically if you're not a vegan you don't love animals. Like this thread no one could ever explain to me that because I eat animals I do not love them? Indeed I love them, I love them even more fried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Are You Serious Jo Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Totally off topic but this reminds me of a post on fb on the RSPCA site someone said to me quote, 'YOU CANNOT BE AN ANIMAL LOVER IF YOU EAT MEAT PERIOD.' So basically if you're not a vegan you don't love animals. Like this thread no one could ever explain to me that because I eat animals I do not love them? Indeed I love them, I love them even more fried. did you post that back at their caps lovin arse, because that would be even funnier Even more off topic, I wonder how Moselle is going these days :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flick_Mac Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 It's like the t-shirt a friend of mine has that says "meat is murder... tasty, tasty murder" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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