Dogs Operated On, Then Killed

[Leelaa17]

In my considered opinion this story is totally barbaric and proves how valueless Animal Ethics Committees are. Any practice should be done on dogs in veterinary surgeries with an extra year added to the course for supervisory training. Is it any wonder vets are eager to accept obscene animal management practices when they are desensitised to the suffering of animals while training.

How are the animals suffering and how is this barbaric? There is no difference with what happens in this situation to what happens when your pets go in for surgery, except what whilst already asleep, they are given an injection which sends them to heaven.

I take offence to your comments saying vets are desensitised to the suffering of animals in their training. If you read some of the previous posts, you'll see that Vets have one of the highest rates of suicide compared to other professions. This doesn't sound like a group of people who are desensitised.

I have not met one Vet who enjoys euthanasia. All the vets I've known and/or worked with take great joy in fixing an animal and seeing it go home. I've been nursing for 6+ years now and have witnessed many many euthanasias and am by no means desensitised - in fact, it's the opposite for me and I can't remember the last time I didn't get upset having to do it.

The idea of using rescue animals is all good and well, but that would mostly just be for the routine desexing surgeries. But there are other things that are done (well, they were when my boss went through), such as spleen removals, cruciate repairs, amputation, fixing a deep chest wound etc etc. They can also see the effects of an animal too deep under GA and learn how to correct it.

Obviously there will still always be their first surgery on someone's pet, but I'm sure knowing they have done the procedure successfully before, during Uni, will give them greater confidence, as well as the owner.

When my rabbit was put down, there were two nurses in the same room as me. They were so lovely and kind to me, but also extremely professional. They let me scream and cry and snot everywhere. They let me sit and cuddle with my rabbit, they got me water and just left me to my own devices. They were extremely gentle with Bunny and were so sensitive when sending him over the rainbow. They looked for a heartbeat and one of the girls said "i can't find a heartbeat' and just gave me a sad smile.

I have no doubt in my mind that it was hard for them. I could see it in their face. But they deal with this on a day-to-day basis, especially at an after hours emergency vet. After I had calmed down, they were talking and laughing, but I didn't take offense to this because I am sure that to stop being sad about something, you need to try and move on and be ready for the next thing that happens.

I went in one morning to my vet to get Jenna's last vaccination, this was about 9.30am in the morning. There had already been two deaths. my vet came in with a sad smile and said 'it's already a bad day'.

I commend anyone who works in the veterinary industry. They see a lot more than any of us laypeople do.

I have never and will never think 99.9% of vet nurses/surgeons are desensitised... but I do think they try the best they can to move past one sh*tty situation and try to make the best of the next situation.

[Boxerheart]

What about going out to vet practises to watch these surgeries being done and then starting to do the surgeries under supervision?

We don't kill off people just so surgeons can learn how to operate

We did during the war eras..also in some countries I think I read some people who are terminally ill sell themselves to labs to earn funds for their families. Pretty gruesome, but many discoveries are made this way.

Sad all around, but then many gain for the sacrifice. I am not sure how I feel on these topics. Depends on circumstance I guess.

[Sheridan]

In my considered opinion this story is totally barbaric and proves how valueless Animal Ethics Committees are. Any practice should be done on dogs in veterinary surgeries with an extra year added to the course for supervisory training. Is it any wonder vets are eager to accept obscene animal management practices when they are desensitised to the suffering of animals while training.

I take you have no animals and thus no use for veterinary surgeries.

[Sheridan]

In my considered opinion this story is totally barbaric and proves how valueless Animal Ethics Committees are. Any practice should be done on dogs in veterinary surgeries with an extra year added to the course for supervisory training. Is it any wonder vets are eager to accept obscene animal management practices when they are desensitised to the suffering of animals while training.

I'm not going to dignify this sort of hyperbole with a response.

It is rather hyperbowl, isn't it.

[Sunnyflower]

Although it doesn't sit well with our emotions our Vets need to be trained...

MEH you have a very good way with words! So heartbreaking but when I think about it, I wouldn't want a trainee working on Oscar.

[Sayly]

I'd hardly call you a bleeding heart from what you wrote, unless you are out in the street protesting about something you know nothing about.

I don't think you are going to find any unis offering free service for their students to get experience as they cannot afford it. The guts was ripped out of the tertiary system years ago and they are forced to operate like businesses now. Secondly the paperwork it would generate and the liability issues makes it unworkable.

I called the new uni vet clinic down here in SA for desexing prices, not only were they not discounted, they were more expensive than a lot of other places and insisted that you had pre-ana bloods done on all desexing. They aren't interested in cheap desexing programs and from what I've read there aren't any other unis willing to do it for free either. The thing is pracs need to be organised ahead of time and allowances made for errors by the student. If they eff up in the lab then no harm done, they eff up in the surgery then the uni faces a potential lawsuit. Students need to be able to practice, that is the bare bones of it, you cannot afford to practice on someone's pet.

The bolded bit is exactly right. We need to be taught a certain amount of things in a very limited time. Waiting for a certain disease to come in, so only one or two or three students can partake in an operation on the animal is not a suitable way to cover everything.

By using animals which will never wake up, things can be manipulated to allow students to learn and practice numerous things.

And can anyone for one moment imagine the utter terror of operating for the first time on someones beloved pet? Like we aren't already under enough pressure.

What if we stuff up, say the animal wakes up with a terrible infection and suffers for a long period of time? Is that acceptable?

The uni in SA is so expensive because they are aiming at best practice, which is expensive. Plus you get some kick arse surgeons doing the procedures.

[Sayly]

Who would like a vet's first experience of using a scalpel on a live animal to be while operating on your pet. Being an objector is one thing and it seems to be more about legality, but the materials you use are not a substitute for a living breathing animal. There is no substitute, alternatives are just that, not substitutes. If people want vets then they have to accept that vets need to be adequately trained. It's not even a cruel practice for goodness sake, the animals aren't even killed for training!

I have no issue with them using live animals. Never said I did, but I believe there is probably better alternatives

to the practice.

If a univeristy offered free vet care to a Rescue organisations I am sure they would take up that offer.

We arent talking about 1st year green students

They dont pick up a scalpel on the first week or even first

year I wouldnt think. Probably not even second year. They have Professors and Vets with them.

They can see dogs with Parvo, mites, pyomtra etc etc etc.

Learn to treat them and watch them recover where possible

Worse case scenerio is that one of the animals may die, but so many more positives.

they get to see people trying to save unwanted animals. The work with live animals and

they might even enjoy watching something regain its health and head out to a new life

I would find it hard if I was a vet student to not have anything live while doing my studies

I am sure it gets depressing at times for them working on cadavars or non-recovery animals

If that sounds like a bleeding heart idea, then I am a bleeding heart

Adelaide Uni is going to work with certain organisations to provide free desexings done by 5th or 6th year students. However, this only really allows us to learn limited things, as does any operation on an animal who is going to be woken up. By using animals who will never wake up numerous things can be learnt from manipulations as Flick Mac has already stated.

Edited May 6, 2011 by Lyndsay

[Sheridan]

The bolded bit is exactly right. We need to be taught a certain amount of things in a very limited time. Waiting for a certain disease to come in, so only one or two or three students can partake in an operation on the animal is not a suitable way to cover everything.

By using animals which will never wake up, things can be manipulated to allow students to learn and practice numerous things.

And can anyone for one moment imagine the utter terror of operating for the first time on someones beloved pet? Like we aren't already under enough pressure.

What if we stuff up, say the animal wakes up with a terrible infection and suffers for a long period of time? Is that acceptable?

The uni in SA is so expensive because they are aiming at best practice, which is expensive. Plus you get some kick arse surgeons doing the procedures.

Not surgery but notably the vet who tried to save my first wheaten knew nothing about the disease he had and had indeed, never heard of it. I knew more about it and I was the one who gave her all the research materials and put her in contact with the specialist. Vets can't learn everything and the more practical work they have, rather than pretending practice, the better.

And I bet every single one against vet students operating on dogs that would have been pts in a pound anyway, wouldn't want their dog operated on by a graduate who had never done any practical work either and if they were honest, they'd admit it.

[Leelaa17]

The bolded bit is exactly right. We need to be taught a certain amount of things in a very limited time. Waiting for a certain disease to come in, so only one or two or three students can partake in an operation on the animal is not a suitable way to cover everything.

By using animals which will never wake up, things can be manipulated to allow students to learn and practice numerous things.

And can anyone for one moment imagine the utter terror of operating for the first time on someones beloved pet? Like we aren't already under enough pressure.

What if we stuff up, say the animal wakes up with a terrible infection and suffers for a long period of time? Is that acceptable?

The uni in SA is so expensive because they are aiming at best practice, which is expensive. Plus you get some kick arse surgeons doing the procedures.

Not surgery but notably the vet who tried to save my first wheaten knew nothing about the disease he had and had indeed, never heard of it. I knew more about it and I was the one who gave her all the research materials and put her in contact with the specialist. Vets can't learn everything and the more practical work they have, rather than pretending practice, the better.

And I bet every single one against vet students operating on dogs that would have been pts in a pound anyway, wouldn't want their dog operated on by a graduate who had never done any practical work either and if they were honest, they'd admit it.

Just wanted to note that I did admit that!

[♪♫LMBC♫♪]

I find the idea that a poorer family's pets should have lower standards of vet care far less palatable than the current situation.

Mistakes still would get buried - but in this case they'd be those family pets. As I said, great idea for non-surgical stuff, not so good for the surgical.

If my dog was sick or injured and needed surgery, there is no way I would be comfortable placing him in the hands of an unqualified student, no matter how broke I may be.

As other people have said, it would be completely impractical to rely entirely on financially disadvantaged people bringing in their sick pets. How would you source enough animals for an entire class to work on in one prac?

These animals are going to be pts anyway, and its not like the procedures being carried out on them are inhumane, they are normal surgical procedures, and the dogs are being euthanised before they even wake up so they are not going to be in any pain.

[Staranais]

Luckily, where I am, we do get to do supervised surgeries on the SPCA kitties and dogs (they come in once a week for desexing), we do get to do some supervised desexing and anaesthesia of pets, and if we're lucky and we impress the vets we work with, then we also usually also get to do further surgeries when we're "seeing practice" in our final year. So we get a lot of recovery surgical experience too.

The non-recovery portion is only a very small fraction of the course (for me, I've participated in 3 sheep non-recovery surgeries, whereas there are probably going on fifty recovery dogs/cats/sheep/cattle I've operated on).

I'm quite sure that you could design a curriculum that only included recovery surgeries and still turned out very good vets, but it's not as simple as just taking the non-recovery surgeries out of the curriculum and replacing them with a couple of extra routine spays, as these teach quite different things.

However, I don't think you could design a good curriculum that included no dissections, and sadly, the dogs we dissect pose exactly the same ethical problem as non-recovery dogs do - they come from the pound as unwanted animals, and are PTS so we can learn from them.

[brightonrock]

excerpt from the SMH article in the first post

Former student Lisa Elsner said: "Most dogs were absolutely petrified - so scared that the students couldn't walk them on a lead through the door of the hospital.

Shame on them.

[persephone]

Shame on them.

Stray dogs/dogs in pounds are often very scared ...some of them may have never been inside a big building ..they were with unknown people ..Not every dog waltzes happily into an unknown place with all the smells etc ...

MY OWN dog used to wet himself and sit with teeth chattering whenever he went to the vet Sometimes I had to carry him .

[Gayle.]

excerpt from the SMH article in the first post

Former student Lisa Elsner said: "Most dogs were absolutely petrified - so scared that the students couldn't walk them on a lead through the door of the hospital.

Shame on them.

I have got a dog who acts like that when I walk him towards the car.....he cringes, crouches, ducks his head, lowers himself and makes himself very difficult to move. Why?

I have no idea. He has never, ever been treated badly, in fact he's been treated like the little emperor he believes himself to be. He has never had a bad experience in a car. He goes in a car at least twice a week, usually to a fun destination or just for a ride.

If you saw me walking him to the car, you could be forgiven for thinking he is absolutely petrified of the car. And you could be forgiven for thinking this dog has possibly been beaten to make him so terrified and submissive. Nothing could be further from the truth. I totally adore him, he has never been hit, yelled at or treated poorly in any way, ever.

Once I lift him into the car, he sits up happily and watches out the window, then lays down for a snooze. He recently travelled with me for a 13 hour trip to Adelaide and back, and he was the best co-pilot ever.

So what you see, isn't always "proof" of how a dog is feeling.

[BJean]

In my considered opinion this story is totally barbaric and proves how valueless Animal Ethics Committees are. Any practice should be done on dogs in veterinary surgeries with an extra year added to the course for supervisory training. Is it any wonder vets are eager to accept obscene animal management practices when they are desensitised to the suffering of animals while training.

I take you have no animals and thus no use for veterinary surgeries.

[Are You Serious Jo]

excerpt from the SMH article in the first post

Former student Lisa Elsner said: "Most dogs were absolutely petrified - so scared that the students couldn't walk them on a lead through the door of the hospital.

Shame on them.

Firstly, you have no idea if the person quoted was accurate in her assessment of the dogs, she may have been exaggerating for effect because she didn't like the situation.

Secondly, there are plenty of dogs that don't like walking into a new place with strange smells. I've got one dog that does that, shame on me for ever taking her out or to the vet?

[vetrg]

I qualified in the UK and there is no non-recovery surgery practical done in the UK (to my knowledge) and there hasn't been for some time. Most of us wehn students gathered out surgical experience when seeing practice with vets in the university holidays. You picked your practice with care and hoped they would let you do lots of stuff (under supervision).

When you graduated you selected your first job with care in the hope that you took a job with a supportive practice that would allow you to develop your skills with help available if needed. Would everyone in my year have given their eye teeth to have access to non recovery surgeries to practice? Hell yes! We were all very jealous of the amount of surgery time the USA students get. Were we bad vets on graduation? No just inexperienced.

Some people will never be good surgeons, some people are naturally talented, all get better with practice. The people on this forum who "wouldn't let some new grad loose on my dogs" must appreciate we all started out as needing exposure to surgery. Vets in the UK have the highest rate of suicide of any profession bar none (I can't speak for other countries). Reducing the pressure on new graduates by allowing them to be confident at basic surgeries at graduation can only help to reduce this awful statistic. Every vet I know knows someone who has comitted suicide.

These dogs are not beloved pets with all the added pressure that entails. They are anaesthetised, operated on and then euthanased. Theye were going to be euthanased anyway- let some other animal benefit from the death of these poor dogs.

[brightonrock]

excerpt from the SMH article in the first post

Former student Lisa Elsner said: "Most dogs were absolutely petrified - so scared that the students couldn't walk them on a lead through the door of the hospital.

Shame on them.

Firstly, you have no idea if the person quoted was accurate in her assessment of the dogs, she may have been exaggerating for effect because she didn't like the situation.

Secondly, there are plenty of dogs that don't like walking into a new place with strange smells. I've got one dog that does that, shame on me for ever taking her out or to the vet?

the quote says MOST dogs

[Are You Serious Jo]

How does that change things, she might have exaggerated that too! It might have been a few or none, or maybe one or two were a bit hesitant. Good rule of thumb, don't believe everything you read.

[Swizzlestick]

Deleted.

Edited May 17, 2011 by Sir WJ