Dogs Operated On, Then Killed

[OSoSwift]

It has improved a lot in the last 20 years. When my husband graduated vets had the second (or third) highest suicide rate of all professions.

We still do. They send us to special classes in school about how to stay positive & not kill ourselves. True story.

wow! i didn't know that. is it because what vets see on a day to day basis?

As well as the other things already stated,

You see people at heightened emotional states, the can get very upset at losing an animal, they quite often get angry and quite often lash out at the person who is closest to the situtaion - the veterinary staff.

Money is involved always an emotive issue and one we see debated on here from time to time.

Animals died you have worked bloody hard to save and there is nothing you can do about it.

You euthanse pets of people you know well, sometimes very well

You euthanase animals you have a long and often close history with.

You get abused by clients

You see animals in some seriously awful states, allowed to get that way by people

You see some seriouly injured and animals in enormous amounts of pain and stress.

Some days it is a "bad day" any many of these things happen one after the other.

You thank dog that you can go home and relax with your own animals as you need it.

Magnify that with long hours, not a huge amount of pay

and the easy means and knowledge to achieve it and well you can see why.

Many only think of the nice side, of which there are many, but it can be an emotional rollercoaster at times.

[Rappie]

As well as the other things already stated,

You see people at heightened emotional states, the can get very upset at losing an animal, they quite often get angry and quite often lash out at the person who is closest to the situtaion - the veterinary staff.

Money is involved always an emotive issue and one we see debated on here from time to time.

Animals died you have worked bloody hard to save and there is nothing you can do about it.

You euthanse pets of people you know well, sometimes very well

You euthanase animals you have a long and often close history with.

You get abused by clients

You see animals in some seriously awful states, allowed to get that way by people

You see some seriouly injured and animals in enormous amounts of pain and stress.

Some days it is a "bad day" any many of these things happen one after the other.

You thank dog that you can go home and relax with your own animals as you need it.

Magnify that with long hours, not a huge amount of pay

and the easy means and knowledge to achieve it and well you can see why.

Many only think of the nice side, of which there are many, but it can be an emotional rollercoaster at times.

All of this and more.

My primary interest is the welfare of my patients, however standing up and being their advocate frequently just gets you an earful of abuse from the people that are supposed to care about them.

It is balanced out by the great people and great pets and great experiences. Knowing that you've saved an animals life even though the owner then abused you for the bill (happened once this week) and knowing that even when you've got nothing to work with you can still try to save a life (and then get sworn at, happened today) and then, there's those times where you save a life just for the heck of it because it makes you feel good inside (I have recently done surgery on a super sweet stray dog to make him rehomeable, with the blessing of the pound - he's still hanging out with us).

As flippant as my signature may sound, there are definitely days I wish I was just a secretary or something.

[Donna]

just for your info as Murdoch now produces the best veterinarians ready to be unleashed on our pets as a result of Andrews perseverance.

Dr. Andrew Knight BSc., BVMS

Murdoch University Division of Veterinary & Biomedical Sciences, Bachelor of Science (Veterinary Biology), Bachelor of Veterinary Medicine & Surgery

1997 - 2001

In 1998 Murdoch University became the first Australian university to formally allow conscientious objection by students. This followed a year-long struggle by veterinary student Andrew Knight for humane alternatives to be made available to harmful animal usage in the veterinary course. His main struggle began when Murdoch refused to allow alternatives and tried (unsuccessfully) to penalise him for boycotting several terminal physiology vivisection laboratories. After the beginnings of legal action and media exposure his marks were restored, and his alternatives submission to the university’s ethics committee resulted in the cancellation of nearly all of these laboratories in 1999. In 2000 Andrew and a classmate became Murdoch’s first alternative surgical students, gaining approximately five times as much surgical and anaesthetic experience as their conventionally trained peers. The groundbreaking precedents set at Murdoch have since helped bring about changes at other campuses within Australia and overseas.

Since then Andrew has donated nine of the world’s best resources on alternatives and conscientious objection to the library of every Australian and New Zealand campus considered likely to use animals in teaching; established a humane education email list for Australia and New Zealand in 2000; and published his book: Learning Without Killing: A Guide to Conscientious Objection, in 2002.

[haven]

In 2000 Andrew and a classmate became Murdoch’s first alternative surgical students, gaining approximately five times as much surgical and anaesthetic experience as their conventionally trained peers.

Alternative surgical students? Is that just a fancy way of saying they didn't participate in surgeries on live animals that are then euthanised such as is debated in this topic? How did they get five times more experience, did they have access to resources their peers did not?

Genuinely curious, I'm not a Vet student or anything like that so it isn't something I know a lot about so I'm not sure of what this actually means

[spanky]

Sparky, I'm not sure that was an issue as some of those dogs were coming from Logan and even further (you might be more in the know than me). They are also (were also) sedated to ease any anxiety due to transport, and were in an airconditioned trailer.

I would assume we're using our own piggery pigs, but I think it's worse than using dogs, as they are far less used to being handled and we can't pat them or comfort them before they go under. The stress they go through in my opinion is far greater than dogs would experience.

Nope I don't know more than you i was just thinking that maybe the hours drive from brissie might have been considered too much. I didn't realise the animals were sedated for transport, so it probably has nothing to do with it.

Possibly it is the piggery pigs.... I don't like the piggery or the chicken farm... but I would assume if more were needed than could be supplied they'd buy slaughter animals? We did live pracs for anim1003 and anim3019 last week and used the sheep and dairy herds. Any lab work was on stuff from the abittoir.

[Gayle.]

Those of you who are so violently opposed to euthanasia of unwanted animals, I ask you this? Where did you source your dogs from? A pound? A shelter? Did you save a dog from being euthanased?

If not, why not?

[poodlefan]

In 2000 Andrew and a classmate became Murdoch’s first alternative surgical students, gaining approximately five times as much surgical and anaesthetic experience as their conventionally trained peers.

Alternative surgical students? Is that just a fancy way of saying they didn't participate in surgeries on live animals that are then euthanised such as is debated in this topic? How did they get five times more experience, did they have access to resources their peers did not?

Genuinely curious, I'm not a Vet student or anything like that so it isn't something I know a lot about so I'm not sure of what this actually means

Perhaps they went out into veterinary practices and got their experience on pets?

[poodlefan]

It is balanced out by the great people and great pets and great experiences. Knowing that you've saved an animals life even though the owner then abused you for the bill (happened once this week) and knowing that even when you've got nothing to work with you can still try to save a life (and then get sworn at, happened today) and then, there's those times where you save a life just for the heck of it because it makes you feel good inside (I have recently done surgery on a super sweet stray dog to make him rehomeable, with the blessing of the pound - he's still hanging out with us).

As flippant as my signature may sound, there are definitely days I wish I was just a secretary or something.

The world need more good vets. I love my vet - she's knowledgeable, extremely competent, understands the show/dog sports world, calm when you need it and copes will with clients who burst into tears after holding it together almost until a bad news consult is over

I honestly don't know what I'll do whens she retires.

[persephone]

The book "Learning without Killing' is online HERE I have just given it a quick read... it's basically a manual on how to carry out the conscientious Objection .... and it also has stories from vets who have done so, and how they fared, what they used as alternatives , and what they learnt.

There are lots of pages of references and sources for resources.

[persephone]

Perhaps they went out into veterinary practices and got their experience on pets?

'shelter' animals , and spey/castration clinics, apparently.

[haven]

Perhaps they went out into veterinary practices and got their experience on pets?

'shelter' animals , and spey/castration clinics, apparently.

Thanks Perse, I will have a look at the book if/when I can get it to load.

Was this experience that the other students were privy too and just didn't utilise, or was it only made available to these students?

[Bartok]

Anne - I think the lady who runs the whole centre is a qualified behaviourist (and very experienced) and she basically has a team who assess(ed) the dogs as they came off the pound truck. Any puppies were usually sent to the RSPCA as they go to homes quickly, and sick, aggressive, unrehomable (ie owners stated they wanted euth) were euthanased. Any dogs that they felt were rehabilitatable (if that's a word!) were put into non-invasive trials or kept as part of our 'colony' of dogs that eventually are rehomed. They get used in pracs such as physical exams, radiography etc - and our interaction with them is part of their environmental enrichment. They are also given training while they're with us and rehomed to make room for another pup.

Bartok - as I said before I've just done my first surgery with live tissue and it's COMPLETELY different. I would not feel comfortable at all doing my first live surgery on a dog that had to go out and run around and live it's life.

PF - We do actually do recovery surgeries before being let loose on pets. We help with desexing for the AWL and RSPCA (I believe) and I also (think, don't know 100%) that people can get very cheap 'student spays' for dogs which are 100% supervised. So we will have had some recovery experience, even if it's only a tiny amount!

Was just thinking about all of this overnight.

Operating on animals that dont have any medical issues then they get PTS- correct?

Wouldnt it be good if the services of vet students were offered to low income families or pensioners who

can't afford alot of veterinary care?

Some procedures are really costly but if the University offered a free or low price option then the

that could be a huge help to the community and then students would also be able to aide the animal in its recovery.

[~Anne~]

Anne - I think the lady who runs the whole centre is a qualified behaviourist (and very experienced) and she basically has a team who assess(ed) the dogs as they came off the pound truck. Any puppies were usually sent to the RSPCA as they go to homes quickly, and sick, aggressive, unrehomable (ie owners stated they wanted euth) were euthanased. Any dogs that they felt were rehabilitatable (if that's a word!) were put into non-invasive trials or kept as part of our 'colony' of dogs that eventually are rehomed. They get used in pracs such as physical exams, radiography etc - and our interaction with them is part of their environmental enrichment. They are also given training while they're with us and rehomed to make room for another pup.

Bartok - as I said before I've just done my first surgery with live tissue and it's COMPLETELY different. I would not feel comfortable at all doing my first live surgery on a dog that had to go out and run around and live it's life.

PF - We do actually do recovery surgeries before being let loose on pets. We help with desexing for the AWL and RSPCA (I believe) and I also (think, don't know 100%) that people can get very cheap 'student spays' for dogs which are 100% supervised. So we will have had some recovery experience, even if it's only a tiny amount!

Was just thinking about all of this overnight.

Operating on animals that dont have any medical issues then they get PTS- correct?

Wouldnt it be good if the services of vet students were offered to low income families or pensioners who

can't afford alot of veterinary care?

Some procedures are really costly but if the University offered a free or low price option then the

that could be a huge help to the community and then students would also be able to aide the animal in its recovery.

I know it soudns bizarre, but I think you will find that it would then become an equity debate. Why should people less fortunate have Vets students, with obvious risks associated with this. I am not saying I agree or disagree, but just what I think might occur.

[persephone]

The 'conscientious objectors' were the ones who went out & did the work .. There are some pretty horrific descriptions of the live animal procedures .. and tales of students obtaining recently deceased animals from farms. Most seem to be O'seas though , the majority being from the US.

There are lots of cadaver use stories .. and an interesting point of view from a vet who is Buddhist .

It was an interesting read - hasn't changed my mind , altho it has given me some understanding of the difficulties facing students.

Mind you, I did a quick read thru only ...

[poodlefan]

Wouldnt it be good if the services of vet students were offered to low income families or pensioners who

can't afford alot of veterinary care?

Some procedures are really costly but if the University offered a free or low price option then the

that could be a huge help to the community and then students would also be able to aide the animal in its recovery.

Some are now. But I dont' think the concept should be extended to surgery. Imagine the stress on the students and the impact on the families if a procedure didnt' go to plan.

I'd like to see surgical work on pets limited to people who know what they're doing. It's not like a haircut.

Edited May 5, 2011 by poodlefan

[greytpets]

Anne - I think the lady who runs the whole centre is a qualified behaviourist (and very experienced) and she basically has a team who assess(ed) the dogs as they came off the pound truck. Any puppies were usually sent to the RSPCA as they go to homes quickly, and sick, aggressive, unrehomable (ie owners stated they wanted euth) were euthanased. Any dogs that they felt were rehabilitatable (if that's a word!) were put into non-invasive trials or kept as part of our 'colony' of dogs that eventually are rehomed. They get used in pracs such as physical exams, radiography etc - and our interaction with them is part of their environmental enrichment. They are also given training while they're with us and rehomed to make room for another pup.

Bartok - as I said before I've just done my first surgery with live tissue and it's COMPLETELY different. I would not feel comfortable at all doing my first live surgery on a dog that had to go out and run around and live it's life.

PF - We do actually do recovery surgeries before being let loose on pets. We help with desexing for the AWL and RSPCA (I believe) and I also (think, don't know 100%) that people can get very cheap 'student spays' for dogs which are 100% supervised. So we will have had some recovery experience, even if it's only a tiny amount!

Was just thinking about all of this overnight.

Operating on animals that dont have any medical issues then they get PTS- correct?

Wouldnt it be good if the services of vet students were offered to low income families or pensioners who

can't afford alot of veterinary care?

Some procedures are really costly but if the University offered a free or low price option then the

that could be a huge help to the community and then students would also be able to aide the animal in its recovery.

This is exactly what I was thinking. Surely training on live animals that continue to live is better than burying their mistakes?

And there are so many low income families that love their pets but find vet treatment out of reach that this would be a better option. I don't know how anyone can find the current situation acceptable.

[poodlefan]

I find the idea that a poorer family's pets should have lower standards of vet care far less palatable than the current situation.

Mistakes still would get buried - but in this case they'd be those family pets. As I said, great idea for non-surgical stuff, not so good for the surgical.

Edited May 5, 2011 by poodlefan

[Bartok]

Wouldnt it be good if the services of vet students were offered to low income families or pensioners who

can't afford alot of veterinary care?

Some procedures are really costly but if the University offered a free or low price option then the

that could be a huge help to the community and then students would also be able to aide the animal in its recovery.

Some are now. But I dont' think the concept should be extended to surgery. Imagine the stress on the students and the impact on the families if a procedure didnt' go to plan.

I'd like to see surgical work on pets limited to people who know what they're doing. It's not like a haircut.

I dont see it as such a complexed thing and some pounds already use universities for desexing

If my dog had say Cancer in his spleen and I didnt have the finances to try and have it surgically removed and

the only options i had were to PTS or take him home and watch him waste away until he was PTS. I would take

the option of surgery with the Uni. It it meant there was a chance it could be removed and he would be cancer

free. That is all I am saying.

If I am reading right. There are qualified vets etc with them and they arent left to their own devices

I would rather see the students operate on an animal that has an ailment then who is healthy

[poodlefan]

If I am reading right. There are qualified vets etc with them and they arent left to their own devices

I would rather see the students operate on an animal that has an ailment then who is healthy

Do you think its ethical and humane to practice elective procedures like desexing on unhealthy animals? How do you know if you've got anasthesia right? How do you learn what's "normal"? How well does the animal recover?

And how does an L-Plated vet student do a half decent job of non-routine procedures on someone's loved pet?

One accidental nick with a scalpel can lead to death.. is that good enough?

If there were simple, viable alternatives to what's happening now, don't you think they'd be doing it? Nice for the conscientious objectors to be honing their skills on shelter animals - what happens if they botch it? Same as happens now I'd say - the animal dies. They just get to feel better about it.

I think there are further avenues that can be explored in this area... but lets not slam the gate on what happens now.

Edited May 5, 2011 by poodlefan

[Bartok]

I find the idea that a poorer family's pets should have lower standards of vet care far less palatable than the current situation.

Mistakes still would get buried - but in this case they'd be those family pets. As I said, great idea for non-surgical stuff, not so good for the surgical.

So, dogs that get desexed at the Uni through the pound system shouldnt be, as it is a surgical procedure and

of lower standard?