Dogs Operated On, Then Killed

[Are You Serious Jo]

I have had my fill of bleeding hearts, and it because of my time with them that I have learned a lot, that they are idealists who actually can cause more harm than good. I can't learn anything more from them, but thanks for your suggestion This issue is a perfect example of how emotion has lead to harm, dogs that were going to die anyway were at least being able to have some good come from their death. But thanks to the do gooders those dogs now go into landfill and vet students are robbed of an opportunity to learn valuable skills.

I have seen all sides of this debate, I've been a committee member of Animal Lib, researcher who submits ethics applications and a vet nurse who had the opportunity to learn on a donor dog. Sorry, no flowery prose to gently caress your ears and touch your heart, just my honest opinion.

[brightonrock]

I have had my fill of bleeding hearts, and it because of my time with them that I have learned a lot, that they are idealists who actually can cause more harm than good. I can't learn anything more from them, but thanks for your suggestion This issue is a perfect example of how emotion has lead to harm, dogs that were going to die anyway were at least being able to have some good come from their death. But thanks to the do gooders those dogs now go into landfill and vet students are robbed of an opportunity to learn valuable skills.

I have seen all sides of this debate, I've been a committee member of Animal Lib, researcher who submits ethics applications and a vet nurse who had the opportunity to learn on a donor dog. Sorry, no flowery prose to gently caress your ears and touch your heart, just my honest opinion.

Forums are for opinions to be aired and shared.

[Alibi]

I have had my fill of bleeding hearts, and it because of my time with them that I have learned a lot, that they are idealists who actually can cause more harm than good. I can't learn anything more from them, but thanks for your suggestion This issue is a perfect example of how emotion has lead to harm, dogs that were going to die anyway were at least being able to have some good come from their death. But thanks to the do gooders those dogs now go into landfill and vet students are robbed of an opportunity to learn valuable skills.

I have seen all sides of this debate, I've been a committee member of Animal Lib, researcher who submits ethics applications and a vet nurse who had the opportunity to learn on a donor dog. Sorry, no flowery prose to gently caress your ears and touch your heart, just my honest opinion.

[Diva]

I'm just saying I have an uneasy feeling about a lot of scientific experimentation using animals, and I think a lot of other people do too.

So do I. But that doesn't mean this practice is necessarily either callous or wrong. It could be if handled badly, but it isn't inherently so.

It isn't scientific experiementation either, not by any def'n of the scientific method I know. It is professional training.

Edited May 5, 2011 by Diva

[Leelaa17]

It has improved a lot in the last 20 years. When my husband graduated vets had the second (or third) highest suicide rate of all professions.

We still do. They send us to special classes in school about how to stay positive & not kill ourselves. True story.

wow! i didn't know that. is it because what vets see on a day to day basis?

[Are You Serious Jo]

I have to reiterate as well what the others have said about animal experimentation, the ethics committees are extremely strict and you have to justify how many animals you use and absolutely everything you do. The days of vivisection and free for alls in labs are gone. These dogs would be as well treated as any pet going into the clinic and shown a lot of respect as they go to sleep. I think a lot of the fear about this issue is from ignorance.

[poodlefan]

No, that's not what I meant, I meant in preparation for the event. I am not going to say that experimentation is not necessary, I'm just saying I have an uneasy feeling about a lot of scientific experimentation using animals, and I think a lot of other people do too.

Including me. But lets not lose sight of one very important fact here. These dogs are not mistreated - we've had vet students here to tell us how it happens and these processes are subject to rigorous scruitiny.

These dogs do not know they are going to die. They are not "experimented on" when they are conscious. They do not experience pain as a result of what happens to them.

To be quite frank, I see more animal cruelty out in the pet owning community than I'd ever expect to see in a modern university vet school.

The fact that its not dramatic, not subject to emotive press reports and doesn't get Dr Wirth wound up doesnt' change it.

Dogs that never leave their yards, are obese, that suffer from untreated ailments - isn't that a more pressing but less dramatic welfare issue to confront?

I honestly think that perceptions as to what is "cruel" need some serious rethinking. Frankly I find it far sadder that these dogs are available for such programs than what happens to them in the end. And all that protesting the practice has accomplished in Qld is that the dogs now die in the pound, rather than at the university. I don't see that as a win for the dogs.

Edited May 5, 2011 by poodlefan

[Staranais]

It has improved a lot in the last 20 years. When my husband graduated vets had the second (or third) highest suicide rate of all professions.

We still do. They send us to special classes in school about how to stay positive & not kill ourselves. True story.

wow! i didn't know that. is it because what vets see on a day to day basis?

They don't really know.

I personally think it's partly because it's a stressful degree and sometimes a stressful career (you see some terrible things, you keep some terrible hours if you're rostered on call, & the money isn't always all that great either). But I mostly think it's because we know how to put things down. A vet that wants to kill themselves gets the job done quickly and successfully.

Sorry for the macabre OT.

[Leelaa17]

I have had my fill of bleeding hearts, and it because of my time with them that I have learned a lot, that they are idealists who actually can cause more harm than good. I can't learn anything more from them, but thanks for your suggestion This issue is a perfect example of how emotion has lead to harm, dogs that were going to die anyway were at least being able to have some good come from their death. But thanks to the do gooders those dogs now go into landfill and vet students are robbed of an opportunity to learn valuable skills.

I have seen all sides of this debate, I've been a committee member of Animal Lib, researcher who submits ethics applications and a vet nurse who had the opportunity to learn on a donor dog. Sorry, no flowery prose to gently caress your ears and touch your heart, just my honest opinion.

LOL and theeeeere you go again. Really, that 'flowery prose to gently caress your ears and touch your heart' stuff really wasn't necessary. You can't help yourself can you? lol

And I take my hat off to your experience and accreditation's... but that doesn't mean that you have to poo poo people's opinions and make them feel beneath you, because they aren't.

[Leelaa17]

It has improved a lot in the last 20 years. When my husband graduated vets had the second (or third) highest suicide rate of all professions.

We still do. They send us to special classes in school about how to stay positive & not kill ourselves. True story.

wow! i didn't know that. is it because what vets see on a day to day basis?

They don't really know.

I personally think it's partly because it's a stressful degree and sometimes a stressful career (you see some terrible things, you keep some terrible hours if you're rostered on call, & the money isn't always all that great either). But I mostly think it's because we know how to put things down. A vet that wants to kill themselves gets the job done quickly and successfully.

Sorry for the macabre OT.

yes sorry for the OT - was just curious. thanks staranais! It is a sad truth I guess. Every career has their 'generalisations', like all journalists are alcoholics and smokers... I've got the smoking part down, but I'm not a drinker but thank you for that information -

sorry again for the OT

[poodlefan]

It has improved a lot in the last 20 years. When my husband graduated vets had the second (or third) highest suicide rate of all professions.

We still do. They send us to special classes in school about how to stay positive & not kill ourselves. True story.

wow! i didn't know that. is it because what vets see on a day to day basis?

They don't really know.

I personally think it's partly because it's a stressful degree and sometimes a stressful career (you see some terrible things, you keep some terrible hours if you're rostered on call, & the money isn't always all that great either). But I mostly think it's because we know how to put things down. A vet that wants to kill themselves gets the job done quickly and successfully.

Sorry for the macabre OT.

Don't be. I think a genuine animal lover without the ability to develop some clinical distance wouldn't last long in the profession. Seeing animals suffer due to owner ignorance and neglect. Having to PTS animals you might have saved if you'd seen them earlier and some of the owners you have to deal with would drive me to drink at least.

[Are You Serious Jo]

I have had my fill of bleeding hearts, and it because of my time with them that I have learned a lot, that they are idealists who actually can cause more harm than good. I can't learn anything more from them, but thanks for your suggestion This issue is a perfect example of how emotion has lead to harm, dogs that were going to die anyway were at least being able to have some good come from their death. But thanks to the do gooders those dogs now go into landfill and vet students are robbed of an opportunity to learn valuable skills.

I have seen all sides of this debate, I've been a committee member of Animal Lib, researcher who submits ethics applications and a vet nurse who had the opportunity to learn on a donor dog. Sorry, no flowery prose to gently caress your ears and touch your heart, just my honest opinion.

LOL and theeeeere you go again. Really, that 'flowery prose to gently caress your ears and touch your heart' stuff really wasn't necessary. You can't help yourself can you? lol

And I take my hat off to your experience and accreditation's... but that doesn't mean that you have to poo poo people's opinions and make them feel beneath you, because they aren't.

When the opinions are based on incorrect facts then yes, I have every right to correct them. You said you didn't know about procedures but had made your mind up anyway. The reason a lot of people are against this is because it makes them feel bad. The procedure is no different to when you take your own animal to the vet to be desexed, they just go to sleep. So if we agree that desexing isn't cruel to the animal, then what is left is your own unease about it. So basically, what it seems to be is that you'd like to stop this practice based on your feelings rather than what is actually happening to the animals. When that affects the rest of us we have a right to speak up.

Animal rights is about human emotions, animal welfare is about what is best for the animal. Animals rights got the dogs stopped from being used for practice.

[Sayly]

It has improved a lot in the last 20 years. When my husband graduated vets had the second (or third) highest suicide rate of all professions.

We still do. They send us to special classes in school about how to stay positive & not kill ourselves. True story.

wow! i didn't know that. is it because what vets see on a day to day basis?

We get the same thing here, from 2nd year all the way through to 5th year. One of the first classes we were told of the large amount of depression and suicide within the profession (nice way to start the degree).

Numerous reasons. It can be a very high stress job with long hours and can be crappy pay. Lack of support. Easy to take the job home when you do finally leave the clinic. Welfare issues, owners who just can't afford the proper care for their animal. Lots of reasons. And like Staranais said, it is easier for a vet to suicide than your average person.

[haven]

I think the number of animals used for ethically approved procedures should always be kept at an absolute minimum not a case of there is a steady supply available and who cares about these animals because they are going to die anyway ? That is just so callous.

I cant think of a single poster who's said that.

Sorry, I haven't got time tonight to go back and find the references in the topic, but I understand a few posters feel it is perfectly ok to perform procedures on an animal prior to it's death as it is scheduled to die anyway.

Yes, I'm one of them. That doesn't mean I don't care that they die or care how they are treated. It also doesn't mean that I think they should be made freely available in any numbers for vet students to learn on.

But how its callous to see as preferable that an animal's death might educate future vets rather than be just to be rid of it at all beats me. Do people honestly think its better just to euth them and dispose of the bodies?

There's a hell of a difference between thinking something's "perfectly OK" and thinking that a death with some purpose is better than one with no purpose at all.

Exactly.

Please be aware too that this is the internet, you cannot always understand people's tone in the written word and some people are more rational than emotional when discussing isues like this and vice versa. Don't make the mistake of thinking that someone is a heartless bitch just because they agree with something you don't and can state why without using overly emotive language, I can tell you as a long term member of this forum that isn't at all the case.

Currently in this country we have far too many dogs and nowhere near enough homes for them all and as a result extremely large numbers of them die every year. They can either;

a) be euthanised and disposed of

or

b) some of the dogs can be anaesthetised and made available for Vet students to get valuable experience, which benefits everyone in the future as our Vets are more experienced. Then they can euthanised and disposed of.

NOBODY is thrilled about the fact that these dogs die at all, but so long as they do this practice is akin to the lesser of two evils I think, at least something good can be made from an awful situation. It's hasn't got anything at all to do with not caring about the dogs because they are going to die anyway, the animals are well cared for and extremely strict guidelines are adhered to in order to ensure that the animals are not mistreated in any way and do not feel any pain.

I admit I have a hard time understanding why anyone would choose option a over option b just as others may struggle to understand why I see option b as preferable, but either way the choice isn't as black and white as picking between a good option and a bad one. It isn't at all correct or appropriate to say that anyone who prefers option b is 'perfectly ok' with the dogs dying anymore than it is correct or appropriate to say that the people who choose option a are.

[spanky]

For those that don't know, UQ has moved their vet school to Gatton as of this year, so that was probably part of the reason to stop using dogs, as it is possibly not ethically viable to transport them so far. Easier to source livestock.

[~Anne~]

Jo, you seem to be missing a point. The point is your deliberate use of provacative language.

By the way, some on here need to stop confusing logic with objectivity.

[Flick_Mac]

Sparky, I'm not sure that was an issue as some of those dogs were coming from Logan and even further (you might be more in the know than me). They are also (were also) sedated to ease any anxiety due to transport, and were in an airconditioned trailer.

I would assume we're using our own piggery pigs, but I think it's worse than using dogs, as they are far less used to being handled and we can't pat them or comfort them before they go under. The stress they go through in my opinion is far greater than dogs would experience.

[Ravyk]

I think the use of the dogs for student vets to gain valuable knowledge in surgery if acceptable, as long as its humane and ethical. Whilst it is very sad that these dogs are scheduled to be PTS, at least some valuable experience and knowledge has been gained through their deaths. It's less of a waste than those euth'd and thrown away.

We don't want inexperienced vets out in the workplace, operating and diagnosing our precious pets, without having any practical experience on a living breathing dog.

Whilst I have no issue with animal ethics, I do have an issue that it is going too far. A lot of my Tafe lecturers [i'm studying Vet nursing] believe that within the next 5-10 years, vet students won't be allowed to do anything with live animals and that vet nurses also wont be able have live animal pracs. It will severely effect the industry, imagine getting a vet nurse who doesn't even know how to lift a dog safely without getting bitten, or restrain a cat for an injection? Or a vet who can't work out what organ they're supposed to be removing?

[Sheridan]

I think the use of the dogs for student vets to gain valuable knowledge in surgery if acceptable, as long as its humane and ethical. Whilst it is very sad that these dogs are scheduled to be PTS, at least some valuable experience and knowledge has been gained through their deaths. It's less of a waste than those euth'd and thrown away.

We don't want inexperienced vets out in the workplace, operating and diagnosing our precious pets, without having any practical experience on a living breathing dog.

Whilst I have no issue with animal ethics, I do have an issue that it is going too far. A lot of my Tafe lecturers [i'm studying Vet nursing] believe that within the next 5-10 years, vet students won't be allowed to do anything with live animals and that vet nurses also wont be able have live animal pracs. It will severely effect the industry, imagine getting a vet nurse who doesn't even know how to lift a dog safely without getting bitten, or restrain a cat for an injection? Or a vet who can't work out what organ they're supposed to be removing?

I certainly won't be using any graduate vet or nurse to take care of my dogs.

[Beth.]

Having just performed my first live surgery on a pig (because UQ is no longer able to source dogs) on Tuesday I can tell everyone who hasn't performed surgery that it is TOTALLY 100% different to performing it on cadavers - which we do as well.

I hate doing the quotes thing but I have some points:

- our pig got some out loud thankyous as he slipped away, as well as being patted and stroked

- I was SO glad that it wasn't a recoverable surgery or the poor thing would have had a horrible peritonitis. It's so hard to learn how to pass things around, and hold instruments, stay sterile and manipulate tissues, especially when they move, contract, pulsate and bleed

- out of a group of 4 students 2 were anaesthetists and 2 surgeons, so we learned as much as possible from 1 animal.

- we only do 3 or 4 of these pracs so the number of animals used for this practice is as minimal as posisble.

- our facilities are one of the newest in Australia and the best according to some people i've talked to

- with a live animal you can SEE if you cut something you shouldn't. Or if what you ligated was done properly. If this happened on a recoverable animal maybe I wouldn't know how to stop it, and I'd just panic. I'd much rather those things happened with something that will never wake-up to feel post-op pain.

- PF - we didn't ever have a 'colony' of dogs. They came from the pound, we temperament assessed and placed some into an adoption program, and some were used for teaching.

This issue makes me furious as I would be before the vet surgeons board in a second if I came out of uni and was so inexperienced yet still expected to be able to perform a surgery where I take an ORGAN out of an animal (ie a spay) on day 1. There are 4 major blood vessels that can be cut and will lead to death if this is not done properly.

I'm also in my 4th year of Vet science and study at UQ, and I was actually one of the anaesthetists for Flick_macs surgery - I really think these type of opportunities are invaluable for all the above reasons that Flicks mentioned!!

I also wanted to state again, that we've never had a 'colony' of dogs at UQ!

And euthanising anything isn't a nice thing - but these animals are sedated, then anaethetised and don't recover - throughout the whole procedure they don't feel anything, and there are many tutors to help with both the surgery and the anaesthetic side of things.

This topic makes me upset, as it makes us out as heartless beings - but we're not the ones who are dumping unwanted dogs at the pounds who are due to be PTS anyway!

Animals are treated with the absolute respect at our uni, either cadavars or alive.