RottnBullies Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 It's not any better......But I'm not taking sides here, I'm just over hearing that phrase! If people with strong compasions cause problems then It's only logical that people with no compasion do too! It was a pointless statement to make In the first place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Are You Serious Jo Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 I gave an example of how a certain type of person has caused harm that was very relevant to the topic. I don't like extremes of either end, people who act purely on emotion and people who have no emotions, so what is your point? Since when has wanting balance and education a crime? You've already had actual vet students tell how some bleeding hearts have impacted their education which impacts me and you as pet owners, I'm not pulling stuff out of my botbot Here, have some of these, they seem to make everything better :rofl: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RottnBullies Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 Here, have some of these, they seem to make everything better You can keep them, I think you may need them more I never said balance and education Is a crime. This Is a topic I'm not getting too Involved In, I don't like this practice, but In some way or form It's needed till something else can replace It I guess So what Is my point, my point Is I HATE THAT PHRASE! pretty simple really, maybe people can use something else to get your point/ statement across Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Anne~ Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 (edited) I gave an example of how a certain type of person has caused harm that was very relevant to the topic. I don't like extremes of either end, people who act purely on emotion and people who have no emotions, so what is your point? Since when has wanting balance and education a crime? You've already had actual vet students tell how some bleeding hearts have impacted their education which impacts me and you as pet owners, I'm not pulling stuff out of my botbot Here, have some of these, they seem to make everything better :rofl: Jo, you have a talent for talking absolute rot and distorting meaning. You hide behind ambiguity. You know, as well as I do that you made this statement: Ignorant bleeding hearts are the cause of a lot of trouble, that is why people here pull others up when they act without any facts and on emotion. Real world things get screwed up by people living in lalaland as an insult meant to encourage a reaction in others responding in this thread. The use of the terms "ignorant bleeding hearts" and "lalaland" are pretty self evident if you ask me. Otherwise, why use them? Why not use your 'objectivity' to articulate in a way that conveys meaning without using words that you know will cause upset? Edited May 5, 2011 by ~Anne~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pudel Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 It's not so much a formal residency, as informal mentoring - most vets that employ new grads are pretty good at being there to give you guidance when you're doing things like a new surgery or you have an unusual or confusing case. Having said that, your boss isn't necessarily going to be there with you when you're the one rostered for after hours and a bloat or HBC comes in at 3am. And I have also heard complete horror stories such as new grads that were left completely alone in the clinic while the boss went away on holiday, in their first few weeks of practice, and just having to manage the best they could! But overall, most practices are pretty good at supporting new grads. It has improved a lot in the last 20 years. When my husband graduated vets had the second (or third) highest suicide rate of all professions. I have heard horror stories about treatment of new grads. When the veterinary surgeons award came out the rules for new grad supervision were tightened. Not all vets are great with new grads, but the horror stories are rare now. The more experience a student can get the better, but they will still need lots of support when they start work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brightonrock Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 Wow, what a long reading topic ! Does anyone else think we might benefit from a poll to assess how people feel about this topic by percentage of for and against ? What makes me uneasy is that most people would not know that when a dog/cat is to be euthanazed, that is not the end of the story. A lot of the public still think that the shelter or pound is a safe place for animals. I think most of us on this list knows that an animal in a pound has pretty much run out of luck. BTW, This is not vivisection ( experiments on live animals ) is it ? I think all vivisection experiments used to end with euthanasia. A lot were cruel, repetitive and unnecessary. I think the number of animals used for ethically approved procedures should always be kept at an absolute minimum not a case of there is a steady supply available and who cares about these animals because they are going to die anyway ? That is just so callous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Are You Serious Jo Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 Report me then Anne, go for your life. But realise that you are showing your hypocrisy yet again by your continual personal attacks. So you say I'm a bad person for saying what I say, what does that make you then? I stand by what I said, I mean it all, I don't like bleeding hearts who act on emotion rather than logic. Never will. They don't make rational decisions and I'm entitled to be annoyed when that impacts me or something that is important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 I think the number of animals used for ethically approved procedures should always be kept at an absolute minimum not a case of there is a steady supply available and who cares about these animals because they are going to die anyway ? That is just so callous. I cant think of a single poster who's said that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diva Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 I think the number of animals used for ethically approved procedures should always be kept at an absolute minimum not a case of there is a steady supply available and who cares about these animals because they are going to die anyway ? That is just so callous. I cant think of a single poster who's said that. No, I don't think anyone did either. Those agreeing with the necessity of the practice are not callous or without compassion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brightonrock Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 I think the number of animals used for ethically approved procedures should always be kept at an absolute minimum not a case of there is a steady supply available and who cares about these animals because they are going to die anyway ? That is just so callous. I cant think of a single poster who's said that. Sorry, I haven't got time tonight to go back and find the references in the topic, but I understand a few posters feel it is perfectly ok to perform procedures on an animal prior to it's death as it is scheduled to die anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flick_Mac Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 (edited) Turkishdelight - it's not a matter of who cares about these animals, let's kill as many as we can. The view I and many other vet students I've talked to take is that these animals are being PTS because of a bigger problem, but they can be an invaluable learning tool to use to people who may be part of the bigger solution - we will be educating people on why they should desex their pets and being able to perform this safely for example.. AND (most importantly to me) they will not feel, nor be conscious of anything that is being done to them. Edited May 5, 2011 by Flick_Mac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diva Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 (edited) Sorry, I haven't got time tonight to go back and find the references in the topic, but I understand a few posters feel it is perfectly ok to perform procedures on an animal prior to it's death as it is scheduled to die anyway. That does not mean they don't care about the dogs. If the dog feels no pain, is unaware of the operation, and is not revived post-op, what difference does it make to them whether they are pts before or after? Edited May 5, 2011 by Diva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leelaa17 Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 Report me then Anne, go for your life. But realise that you are showing your hypocrisy yet again by your continual personal attacks. So you say I'm a bad person for saying what I say, what does that make you then?I stand by what I said, I mean it all, I don't like bleeding hearts who act on emotion rather than logic. Never will. They don't make rational decisions and I'm entitled to be annoyed when that impacts me or something that is important. You just don't stop do you? Anne was, at least to some extent, sticking up for me. She is not personally attacking you, she is telling you - in my eyes - exactly what you are doing. A lot of your comments are completely uncalled for and unnecessary, especially the words you use. All Anne is trying to say is that you could use different phrases or different words to get your point across, instead of using words that can cause offense (which they did) or that could upset people. And that is you. My OH is the same, he is an extremely logical person and I am an extremely emotional person... and we work perfectly together, and have for the last 5 years. What I am seeing from you is that anyone who is NOT logical, like you, you don't like? You must not like a lot of people then. Jo, there are people out there who are the complete opposite to you and have the complete opposite opinions of you. You need to accept that, and maybe if you gave 'bleeding heart' people a chance, you might learn something from them. Emotional decisions aren't ALWAYS the worst way to make a decision, sometimes completely logical decisions get people into trouble (especially in social situations!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 (edited) I think the number of animals used for ethically approved procedures should always be kept at an absolute minimum not a case of there is a steady supply available and who cares about these animals because they are going to die anyway ? That is just so callous. I cant think of a single poster who's said that. Sorry, I haven't got time tonight to go back and find the references in the topic, but I understand a few posters feel it is perfectly ok to perform procedures on an animal prior to it's death as it is scheduled to die anyway. Yes, I'm one of them. That doesn't mean I don't care that they die or care how they are treated. It also doesn't mean that I think they should be made freely available in any numbers for vet students to learn on. But how its callous to see as preferable that an animal's death might educate future vets rather than be just to be rid of it at all beats me. Do people honestly think its better just to euth them and dispose of the bodies? There's a hell of a difference between thinking something's "perfectly OK" and thinking that a death with some purpose is better than one with no purpose at all. Edited May 5, 2011 by poodlefan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leelaa17 Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 (edited) I think the number of animals used for ethically approved procedures should always be kept at an absolute minimum not a case of there is a steady supply available and who cares about these animals because they are going to die anyway ? That is just so callous. I cant think of a single poster who's said that. No, I don't think anyone did either. Those agreeing with the necessity of the practice are not callous or without compassion. Can I just note that I don't think these people, nor have I ever said, that these people are callous or without passion. I just think we all have different views! ETA: I know this post I quoted wasn't to do with me, but I just want everyone to know that I don't think the people I am disagreeing with are bad people at all - just people with different opinions. Edited May 5, 2011 by Leelaa17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brightonrock Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 Sorry, I haven't got time tonight to go back and find the references in the topic, but I understand a few posters feel it is perfectly ok to perform procedures on an animal prior to it's death as it is scheduled to die anyway. That does not mean they don't care about the dogs. If the dog feels no pain, is unaware of the operation, and is not revived post-op, what difference does it make to them whether they are pts before or after? I just have a belief that many animals, not just dogs, communicate non verbally and feel in ways we don't appreciate or can measure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alibi Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 I think alot of people need to see it from the other side of the coin, and experience what really happens rather what an emotional story tells you. No animals are used before everything is approved by an ethics commitity, and everything done has to abide by the eithics outlined. It is not done by "oh we have 20 dogs at the pound this week we can have, lets take them all". Numbers are strict, no animal is ever needlessly used. The people who care for the dogs treat them with much respect and love. Human doctors also practice on sheep and pigs, should this stop also? They also used to practice on dogs but things are moving more towards sheep and pigs now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 Sorry, I haven't got time tonight to go back and find the references in the topic, but I understand a few posters feel it is perfectly ok to perform procedures on an animal prior to it's death as it is scheduled to die anyway. That does not mean they don't care about the dogs. If the dog feels no pain, is unaware of the operation, and is not revived post-op, what difference does it make to them whether they are pts before or after? I just have a belief that many animals, not just dogs, communicate non verbally and feel in ways we don't appreciate or can measure. Even when they're unconscious? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brightonrock Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 Sorry, I haven't got time tonight to go back and find the references in the topic, but I understand a few posters feel it is perfectly ok to perform procedures on an animal prior to it's death as it is scheduled to die anyway. That does not mean they don't care about the dogs. If the dog feels no pain, is unaware of the operation, and is not revived post-op, what difference does it make to them whether they are pts before or after? I just have a belief that many animals, not just dogs, communicate non verbally and feel in ways we don't appreciate or can measure. Even when they're unconscious? No, that's not what I meant, I meant in preparation for the event. I am not going to say that experimentation is not necessary, I'm just saying I have an uneasy feeling about a lot of scientific experimentation using animals, and I think a lot of other people do too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staranais Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 It has improved a lot in the last 20 years. When my husband graduated vets had the second (or third) highest suicide rate of all professions. We still do. They send us to special classes in school about how to stay positive & not kill ourselves. True story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now