Dogs Operated On, Then Killed

[Leelaa17]

And I am CERTAINLY not happy to trust my dogs life on someone who is learning to deal with that... I just don't agree with it. But I respect that others do agree with it.

so how do you propose vet students learn if you aren't willing to let them learn on your pets?

cadavers. And I am willing to let already EXPERIENCED vet students learn on my pets as long as there is an experienced vet assisting them.

And for those vet students to become experienced... again... I say cadavers. I think you missed the bit when we said that we weren't happy to trust our dogs life on someone who was still learning not to be sqeamish around dogs and insides and euthanasia etc etc.

we? I was quoting and responding to you and I don't recall you qualifying your statement that way - until now.

Yes we - if you actually look at the rest of the same post, you will actually see that Poodlefan was the one who stated she wouldn't be happy to trust her dogs life in a squeamish students hands: I QUOTE:

Cadavers don't bleed, don't breathe and don't die when you get it wrong. If you're happy to trust your dogs life to a vet that's learning to deal with that on your pet, then good for you. I'm not.

.

And as SOME people know on this forum - I have a terrible way of 'qualifying' myself on statements. I'll say stuff that doesn't get through to a lot of people correctly, but in my head it makes sense. that's why I reply and clarify what I was meaning to say.

[Leelaa17]

I can see both sides, on the emotional level it is so hard to hear and see ANY dogs being put to sleep but unfortunately society has caused the problem. I do see the merits of the students learning in this way but it makes me feel a little yuck because I am a softie but hopefully realistic enough to know that it is benefitting the vets of the future.

So we have no accurate way of gaining data to make cars safer for kids. And living children suffer as a result. I call that a crying shame.

Without going into it on this thread, as a bereaved parent there is not a chance in hell that I would have allowed my baby to be used for this. It is singular one of the most devastating things to happen to a person and we hold them so precious and dear. I am really irritated at the insensitivity of these comments, maybe I am over reacting but there you have it.

In this day and age I am sure we can recreate a crash test dummy that would be able to simulate the impact etc a car crash would have on a doll.

Can you note that this was not actually MY comment? i didn't bring up the crash test dummy thing thank you.

ETA: And I am extremely sorry to hear that.

Edited May 5, 2011 by Leelaa17

[Leelaa17]

And I don't know how you'd learn to diganose various diseases - don't they do that through blood tests, x-rays and other tests? They don't do surgeries to 'diagnose' diseases do they?

sometimes they do, blood tests etc don't always show/tell the whole story. Sometimes animals are operated on for a look see. I imagine it's not done as often now as it has been in the past as technology has improved in leaps and bounds.

Ah fair enough. I didn't know thought it was all blood tests etc.

[oakway]

Leelaa17 wrote

And Absolutely NOT! Did you not read my first post? I am against euthanasia altogether. I DO NOT think it is an ok to euthanize an animal unless it is dying or in a lot of pain.

If we don't use euthanasia what do you suggest we do .....keep every one of them ?.

Sorry not practical.

[poodlefan]

I can see both sides, on the emotional level it is so hard to hear and see ANY dogs being put to sleep but unfortunately society has caused the problem. I do see the merits of the students learning in this way but it makes me feel a little yuck because I am a softie but hopefully realistic enough to know that it is benefitting the vets of the future.

So we have no accurate way of gaining data to make cars safer for kids. And living children suffer as a result. I call that a crying shame.

Without going into it on this thread, as a bereaved parent there is not a chance in hell that I would have allowed my baby to be used for this. It is singular one of the most devastating things to happen to a person and we hold them so precious and dear. I am really irritated at the insensitivity of these comments, maybe I am over reacting but there you have it.

In this day and age I am sure we can recreate a crash test dummy that would be able to simulate the impact etc a car crash would have on a doll.

Not without building it using data based on observation. And that data is, as I have said, simply not available. You can't simulate anything without factual parameters to build the simulation. Adult crash test dummies are built using parameters obtained by crashing real bodies in real cars.

Perhaps you might care to read my entire comments about the use of children's bodies for research. I said:

Yep, grieving parents are quite understandably very reluctant to allow a child's body to be used for such research.

Sorry, but I fail to see how this is an insensitive comment. I'm not making light of the devastating impact of a child's death on a family. If you don't believe that failure to be able to accurately simulate the impact of car crashes on children causes issues for car/child safety, I can only encourage you to research the issue for yourself. I make no apologies for thinking this is a shame.

Edited May 5, 2011 by poodlefan

[Amadeus]

I'd like to think that a dog destined to die on an operating table in a veterinary school gets a silent thank you from the student that learned from it as it dies. My guess is some of those students will never forget that dog.

I have done many a dissection on dead animals, and particularly dogs at university. Some quite horrid, but very educational. We were always told and taught to respect the animal, and anyone who didn't in these sessions was jumped on by both peers and lecturers. I absolutely remember 2 dogs in particular by what they taught me, and I always spent a moment to wonder about their life. Yes, they all got silent and not so silent thank you's.

[~Anne~]

For those who feel cadavars should be used, where would the cadavars come from? Would they be frozen? Fresh?

[Leelaa17]

Leelaa17 wrote

And Absolutely NOT! Did you not read my first post? I am against euthanasia altogether. I DO NOT think it is an ok to euthanize an animal unless it is dying or in a lot of pain.

If we don't use euthanasia what do you suggest we do .....keep every one of them ?.

Sorry not practical.

Goodness me. Once again, I would really like people to read my entire posts before replying????

I QUOTE:

I'm sorry but I disagree with all of you. This is completely distressing for me and I am actually SHOCKED that some of you are actually ok with this practice. I understand that everyone has different opinion and I respect that, but my view is no euthanasia. I don't agree with it unless a dog is in serious pain and dying. That's that.

I do agree, however, with you Sparky, because it IS the byb, puppy farms and irresponsible owners that make me furious. It infuriates me. if these f***ers weren't around then there WOULDN'T be any euthanasia and I would be a happy person.

I know that people are going to be like 'well what are you going to do with the dogs that can't be rehomes etc etc etc' - the answer is I don't know what to do with them, but ffs, DON'T kill them. That's my opinion.

I. don't. know. I don't have any great fancy ideas on how to save every dog - all I know is that I don't want euthanasia to be a part of it.

Gosh.

[Leelaa17]

I can see both sides, on the emotional level it is so hard to hear and see ANY dogs being put to sleep but unfortunately society has caused the problem. I do see the merits of the students learning in this way but it makes me feel a little yuck because I am a softie but hopefully realistic enough to know that it is benefitting the vets of the future.

So we have no accurate way of gaining data to make cars safer for kids. And living children suffer as a result. I call that a crying shame.

Without going into it on this thread, as a bereaved parent there is not a chance in hell that I would have allowed my baby to be used for this. It is singular one of the most devastating things to happen to a person and we hold them so precious and dear. I am really irritated at the insensitivity of these comments, maybe I am over reacting but there you have it.

In this day and age I am sure we can recreate a crash test dummy that would be able to simulate the impact etc a car crash would have on a doll.

Not without building it using data based on observation. And that data is, as I have said, simply not available. You can't simulate anything without factual parameters to build the simulation.

Perhaps you might care to read my entire comments about the use of children's bodies for research. I said:

Yep, grieving parents are quite understandably very reluctant to allow a child's body to be used for such research.

Sorry, but I fail to see how this is an insensitive comment. I'm not making light of the devastating impact of a child's death on a family. If you don't believe that failure to be able to accurate simulate the impact of car crashes on children causes issues for car safety, I can only encourage you to research the issue for yourself.

I agree poodlefan. I didn't see your comments at being insensitive - actually, quite the opposite. I felt you were actually sticking up for the greiving parents. I was also just trying to state the fact that it was not my comment.

[Sheridan]

And I am CERTAINLY not happy to trust my dogs life on someone who is learning to deal with that... I just don't agree with it. But I respect that others do agree with it.

so how do you propose vet students learn if you aren't willing to let them learn on your pets?

cadavers. And I am willing to let already EXPERIENCED vet students learn on my pets as long as there is an experienced vet assisting them.

And for those vet students to become experienced... again... I say cadavers. I think you missed the bit when we said that we weren't happy to trust our dogs life on someone who was still learning not to be sqeamish around dogs and insides and euthanasia etc etc.

Not sure how you'd learn to diagnose various diseases that depend on the dog not being dead.

And ETA, a bit hypocritical that you're okay with a dog being killed so a vet student can learn as long as it's not done by a student. It's okay, for example, for the dog to be killed at a pound and then transported to a vet hospital?

the bold: that doesn't make sense to me?

And Absolutely NOT! Did you not read my first post? I am against euthanasia altogether. I DO NOT think it is an ok to euthanise an animal unless it is dying or in a lot of pain.

this was my post:

I'm sorry but I disagree with all of you. This is completely distressing for me and I am actually SHOCKED that some of you are actually ok with this practice. I understand that everyone has different opinion and I respect that, but my view is no euthanasia. I don't agree with it unless a dog is in serious pain and dying. That's that.

I do agree, however, with you Sparky, because it IS the byb, puppy farms and irresponsible owners that make me furious. It infuriates me. if these f***ers weren't around then there WOULDN'T be any euthanasia and I would be a happy person.

I know that people are going to be like 'well what are you going to do with the dogs that can't be rehomes etc etc etc' - the answer is I don't know what to do with them, but ffs, DON'T kill them. That's my opinion.

In regards to students operating on LIVE animals and then killing them... This is DISGUSTING! Absolutely disgusting. Use cadavers. Thats what humans use... Do we operate on DYING PATIENTS and then ethuanise them? No... But TBH in wouldn't surprise me if euthanasia was legalised in Aus that we 'put people down' so surgeons can practice.

Find. another. way. to. learn.

Absolutely despicable.

And I don't know how you'd learn to diganose various diseases - don't they do that through blood tests, x-rays and other tests? They don't do surgeries to 'diagnose' diseases do they?

I think it's fairly clear that you don't know a whole lot about veterinary practices. Perhaps you've been lucky enough never to have a dog be sick or injured at all. Maybe you should spend a day at a vet surgery because thus far your comments are pretty bloody insensitive whether or not they're about dogs or people.

[Cheyd]

I have no problem with dogs being used, I would sincerely hope that measures are in place to make sure they are properly under sedation before any surgery was started and they are respected through out any surgery etc

[poodlefan]

I agree poodlefan. I didn't see your comments at being insensitive - actually, quite the opposite. I felt you were actually sticking up for the greiving parents. I was also just trying to state the fact that it was not my comment.

I don't have an issue with a parent who has lost a child taking issue with my comments. That is human nature. No one wants to have to live through those circumstances.

Its the same issue that sees organ donation so difficult to achieve in this country. The time of a death has got to be the worst possible time to confront grieving relatives about anything to do with their lost loved one. But God bless our medical staff, in the absence of organ donor cards, they do it repeatedly in an effort to help the living. You can multiply by infinity the dilemma/grief for those who have just lost a child.

Edited May 5, 2011 by poodlefan

[frenzied1]

I can see both sides, on the emotional level it is so hard to hear and see ANY dogs being put to sleep but unfortunately society has caused the problem. I do see the merits of the students learning in this way but it makes me feel a little yuck because I am a softie but hopefully realistic enough to know that it is benefitting the vets of the future.

So we have no accurate way of gaining data to make cars safer for kids. And living children suffer as a result. I call that a crying shame.

Without going into it on this thread, as a bereaved parent there is not a chance in hell that I would have allowed my baby to be used for this. It is singular one of the most devastating things to happen to a person and we hold them so precious and dear. I am really irritated at the insensitivity of these comments, maybe I am over reacting but there you have it.

In this day and age I am sure we can recreate a crash test dummy that would be able to simulate the impact etc a car crash would have on a doll.

Can you note that this was not actually MY comment? i didn't bring up the crash test dummy thing thank you.

ETA: And I am extremely sorry to hear that.

I can see both sides, on the emotional level it is so hard to hear and see ANY dogs being put to sleep but unfortunately society has caused the problem. I do see the merits of the students learning in this way but it makes me feel a little yuck because I am a softie but hopefully realistic enough to know that it is benefitting the vets of the future.

So we have no accurate way of gaining data to make cars safer for kids. And living children suffer as a result. I call that a crying shame.

Without going into it on this thread, as a bereaved parent there is not a chance in hell that I would have allowed my baby to be used for this. It is singular one of the most devastating things to happen to a person and we hold them so precious and dear. I am really irritated at the insensitivity of these comments, maybe I am over reacting but there you have it.

In this day and age I am sure we can recreate a crash test dummy that would be able to simulate the impact etc a car crash would have on a doll.

Not without building it using data based on observation. And that data is, as I have said, simply not available. You can't simulate anything without factual parameters to build the simulation.

Perhaps you might care to read my entire comments about the use of children's bodies for research. I said:

Yep, grieving parents are quite understandably very reluctant to allow a child's body to be used for such research.

Sorry, but I fail to see how this is an insensitive comment. I'm not making light of the devastating impact of a child's death on a family. If you don't believe that failure to be able to accurate simulate the impact of car crashes on children causes issues for car safety, I can only encourage you to research the issue for yourself.

Firstly I suck at the quote thing so apologise for to those that I have not quoted, I have quoted and that I haven't quoted fully.

Secondly I don't want to research it Poodlefan pure and simple, sometimes ignorance is bliss. I can only speak for myself and say when I read your comments I was irritated and angry, probably as it is a sensitive thing for me to think about, I hope something you would never have to live through and then live with. Anyway this is detracting from the OP

[Leelaa17]

And I am CERTAINLY not happy to trust my dogs life on someone who is learning to deal with that... I just don't agree with it. But I respect that others do agree with it.

so how do you propose vet students learn if you aren't willing to let them learn on your pets?

cadavers. And I am willing to let already EXPERIENCED vet students learn on my pets as long as there is an experienced vet assisting them.

And for those vet students to become experienced... again... I say cadavers. I think you missed the bit when we said that we weren't happy to trust our dogs life on someone who was still learning not to be sqeamish around dogs and insides and euthanasia etc etc.

Not sure how you'd learn to diagnose various diseases that depend on the dog not being dead.

And ETA, a bit hypocritical that you're okay with a dog being killed so a vet student can learn as long as it's not done by a student. It's okay, for example, for the dog to be killed at a pound and then transported to a vet hospital?

the bold: that doesn't make sense to me?

And Absolutely NOT! Did you not read my first post? I am against euthanasia altogether. I DO NOT think it is an ok to euthanise an animal unless it is dying or in a lot of pain.

this was my post:

I'm sorry but I disagree with all of you. This is completely distressing for me and I am actually SHOCKED that some of you are actually ok with this practice. I understand that everyone has different opinion and I respect that, but my view is no euthanasia. I don't agree with it unless a dog is in serious pain and dying. That's that.

I do agree, however, with you Sparky, because it IS the byb, puppy farms and irresponsible owners that make me furious. It infuriates me. if these f***ers weren't around then there WOULDN'T be any euthanasia and I would be a happy person.

I know that people are going to be like 'well what are you going to do with the dogs that can't be rehomes etc etc etc' - the answer is I don't know what to do with them, but ffs, DON'T kill them. That's my opinion.

In regards to students operating on LIVE animals and then killing them... This is DISGUSTING! Absolutely disgusting. Use cadavers. Thats what humans use... Do we operate on DYING PATIENTS and then ethuanise them? No... But TBH in wouldn't surprise me if euthanasia was legalised in Aus that we 'put people down' so surgeons can practice.

Find. another. way. to. learn.

Absolutely despicable.

And I don't know how you'd learn to diganose various diseases - don't they do that through blood tests, x-rays and other tests? They don't do surgeries to 'diagnose' diseases do they?

I think it's fairly clear that you don't know a whole lot about veterinary practices. Perhaps you've been lucky enough never to have a dog be sick or injured at all. Maybe you should spend a day at a vet surgery because thus far your comments are pretty bloody insensitive whether or not they're about dogs or people.

I BEG your pardon? My God.

Have I EVER claimed to have ANY idea on vet practices? NO. I will happily say I know absolutely NOTHING about vet practices and what happens etc. I only know what people tell me. And I am extremely lucky to not have any serious illness or injury happen to my pets (although there HAS been injury and illness - just not serious) and I always go into the vet and ask a million questions because I don't know anything about it. I am a journalist. Not a vet.

And second of all - I would really like you to show me which comments I have made that are insensitive? That was NEVER my intention. And I don't think ANY of my comments have been insensitive? So I have absolutely no idea what you're going on about?

[budgiew]

When i was 10 years old my dog had puppies,<My parents would not get her fixed.>One pup went to a neighbour,i saw him every day on my way to school.After a party at there house MY little pup was missing.Later i heard that he was taken by some vet students to be used for experiments,At the time i did not want to believe it.Well there was a warning this would be upsetting.A few weeks later his mother, My dog was stolen from our back yard. Vet students can learn the same way as medical students do.The only people to blame are the ones that make the policies that allow anyone to buy sell and breed dogs We need animals not to be sold in pet shops, a license to own or sell an animal; mandatory education test before you can own a pet.

[Leelaa17]

I can see both sides, on the emotional level it is so hard to hear and see ANY dogs being put to sleep but unfortunately society has caused the problem. I do see the merits of the students learning in this way but it makes me feel a little yuck because I am a softie but hopefully realistic enough to know that it is benefitting the vets of the future.

So we have no accurate way of gaining data to make cars safer for kids. And living children suffer as a result. I call that a crying shame.

Without going into it on this thread, as a bereaved parent there is not a chance in hell that I would have allowed my baby to be used for this. It is singular one of the most devastating things to happen to a person and we hold them so precious and dear. I am really irritated at the insensitivity of these comments, maybe I am over reacting but there you have it.

In this day and age I am sure we can recreate a crash test dummy that would be able to simulate the impact etc a car crash would have on a doll.

Can you note that this was not actually MY comment? i didn't bring up the crash test dummy thing thank you.

ETA: And I am extremely sorry to hear that.

I can see both sides, on the emotional level it is so hard to hear and see ANY dogs being put to sleep but unfortunately society has caused the problem. I do see the merits of the students learning in this way but it makes me feel a little yuck because I am a softie but hopefully realistic enough to know that it is benefitting the vets of the future.

So we have no accurate way of gaining data to make cars safer for kids. And living children suffer as a result. I call that a crying shame.

Without going into it on this thread, as a bereaved parent there is not a chance in hell that I would have allowed my baby to be used for this. It is singular one of the most devastating things to happen to a person and we hold them so precious and dear. I am really irritated at the insensitivity of these comments, maybe I am over reacting but there you have it.

In this day and age I am sure we can recreate a crash test dummy that would be able to simulate the impact etc a car crash would have on a doll.

Not without building it using data based on observation. And that data is, as I have said, simply not available. You can't simulate anything without factual parameters to build the simulation.

Perhaps you might care to read my entire comments about the use of children's bodies for research. I said:

Yep, grieving parents are quite understandably very reluctant to allow a child's body to be used for such research.

Sorry, but I fail to see how this is an insensitive comment. ;) I'm not making light of the devastating impact of a child's death on a family. If you don't believe that failure to be able to accurate simulate the impact of car crashes on children causes issues for car safety, I can only encourage you to research the issue for yourself.

Firstly I suck at the quote thing so apologise for to those that I have not quoted, I have quoted and that I haven't quoted fully.

Secondly I don't want to research it Poodlefan pure and simple, sometimes ignorance is bliss. I can only speak for myself and say when I read your comments I was irritated and angry, probably as it is a sensitive thing for me to think about, I hope something you would never have to live through and then live with. Anyway this is detracting from the OP

You did fine with the quote thing!! Again - I would like to apologise if you have taken offense to anything I have said. That was not my intention at all.

And poodlefan - I know you didn't have any issue with others taking issues with your comments. It is the nature of this forum.

[fifi]

When i was 10 years old my dog had puppies,<My parents would not get her fixed.>One pup went to a neighbour,i saw him every day on my way to school.After a party at there house MY little pup was missing.Later i heard that he was taken by some vet students to be used for experiments,At the time i did not want to believe it.Well there was a warning this would be upsetting.A few weeks later his mother, My dog was stolen from our back yard. Vet students can learn the same way as medical students do.The only people to blame are the ones that make the policies that allow anyone to buy sell and breed dogs We need animals not to be sold in pet shops, a license to own or sell an animal; mandatory education test before you can own a pet.

Sorry about the loss of your dogs, but I can assure you vet students don't go prowling the streets like young Frankenstiens looking for dogs to experiment upon.

I'd be checking with your parents about where the dogs went, or maybe they were stolen, but someone's fed you porky pies about where they went.

fifi

[RottnBullies]

I'm not skipping over things Anne but I honestly would have to question the accuracy/objectivity of a report seemingly based on the views of one horrified veterinary student.

Yes, true. The accuracy of the statements must be questioned. Still, there are a lot of statements in that one piece that do not sound just. Where there is smoke there is fire as they say....

I doubt any picture painted will be rosy. However the thread about this practice in Brisbane revealed that the colony dogs used there were treated well, got a lot of TLC and their management for procedures and eventual euthanasia was respectful and considerate. Why would Melbourne necessarily be any different.

I read some time ago after that petition was circling around that this practice In the Brisbane Uni was made to stop? Can anyone confirm this please

[poodlefan]

Secondly I don't want to research it Poodlefan pure and simple, sometimes ignorance is bliss.I can only speak for myself and say when I read your comments I was irritated and angry, probably as it is a sensitive thing for me to think about, I hope something you would never have to live through and then live with. Anyway this is detracting from the OP

I'm sorry that my comments made you irritated and angry.

However perhaps the substance of my comments and your reaction to reading them aren't necessarily directly linked. None of us can post with certainty that someone won't have a reason to take offence when a subject is rasied.

I don't jump up and down calling people insensitive any time someone mentions suicide on this forum.. because I know that observations made here aren't generally intended to cause offence to those who've confronted personal tragedy.

Losing a child is tragic.. For those who celebrate their mothers this weekend , let me assure you that 6 year old losing her mother is no cake walk either.

Edited May 5, 2011 by poodlefan

[frenzied1]

Secondly I don't want to research it Poodlefan pure and simple, sometimes ignorance is bliss.I can only speak for myself and say when I read your comments I was irritated and angry, probably as it is a sensitive thing for me to think about, I hope something you would never have to live through and then live with. Anyway this is detracting from the OP

I'm sorry that my comments made you irritated and angry.

However perhaps the substance of my comments and your reaction to reading them aren't necessarily directly linked. None of us can post with certainty that someone won't have a reason to take offence when a subject is rasied.

I don't jump up and down calling people insensitive any time someone mentions suicide on this forum.. because I know that observations made here aren't generally intended to cause offence to those who've confronted personal tragedy.

Losing a child is tragic.. For those who celebrate their mothers this weekend , let me assure you that 6 year old losing her mother is no cake walk either.

I agree. Any bereavement is tragic. Thanks Poodlefan I am having a bad time and am more sensitive than usual maybe it is with Mother's day coming up.