Dogs Operated On, Then Killed

[spanky]

Just to add human doctors are not let loose on live patients straight after their study- vets are.

Exactly! My cousin did so much observation, followed by supervised surgery and he had to sit a whole seperate block of exams to even get the chance to train to be a surgeon. He's in his mid-30's and only in the last couple of years started operating on his own.

People whinge about vet fees now, imagine the cost increases if vets had to do internships etc before being allowed to operate.

[Sheridan]

Dogs fitting those descriptions die in Australian pounds every day. Is anyone going to suggest that a pound environment is stress free?

I'm not wild about this practice but lets keep it at the top of our minds that these are not dogs that are going to have a life beyond this anyway.

I am aware of dogs dying in pounds. I have simply raised a few questions and I find it interesting that most are skipping over the things that need questioing in their rapid support for the practice. I support using live animals for education. I'd still like to know more about the program though and how it is run.

Then ring them up.

I've had occasion to use the services of the Werribee Vet Clinic. They have the specialist cases referred there because that's where the experts are. I think it sounds like that student isn't long for the veterinary profession if she can't handle surgery on a dog. What did she think training was going to involve?

Edited May 4, 2011 by Sheridan

[oakway]

Ok you are all going to jump om from a dizzy height aren't you!!!!!!.

I'm all for it.

Just stop and think what is learned from these exercises.

Yes they need the old, the young and the pregnant to learn on.

If they don't learn how are they going to save your dog when rushed into emergency surgery?

Maybe, just maybe, if we the breeders had got behind the Uni's and taken our docked breed pups there

and taught the students how to dock the puppies we may not have the start of the demise of some our

docked breed in Australia. (Just a thought)

It's all a learning curve and if there is a student complaining, I have my doubts that this student

should be there in the first place. If you want to be a vet it goes with the territory.

[persephone]

how does anyone know if the "operation" has been a success.

I guess the same way any vet does .. by assessing all the vital signs , and seeing that things are working as they should .Obviously no healing takes place - but there should also be no bleeding , or poor breathing - all that stuff and much more.

[~Anne~]

What I would like to know, is, if the animal is euthed before it wakes up, how does anyone know if the "operation" has been a success. A student not properly supervised could be doing something wrong during the procedure without ever knowing the consequences.

I would think that the profs are hovering and assisting.

For those that have never sliced through live flesh of an animal or inserted a needle into a vein you wouldn't realise just how difficult this can be when you first start doing it. I would think that Vet students are obviously being trained at a far higher level obviously as well.

I can recall when nursing that freshly graduated Vets were novices at injecting and the simplest of things and often, it was the nurses showing them the easiest and best way. Our vets were coming straight out of Sydney Uni and at the time, they were not practising on live animals or cadavers to my knowledge which was amazing. A Vet, now lecturer at Syd Uni once commented to me how ill-prepared he was for the simplest tasks. Peter was fresh from Uni at the time.

Edited May 4, 2011 by ~Anne~

[mr.mister]

So, these dogs are put under GA, operated on, and then euthanised. How is that a cruel practice? The dog gently slips under GA, and from there is completely unaware of the proceedings. It feels no pain. It dies as it was destined to on death row, but now its death has been given meaning because it has aided a vet student to learn and thus make them better vets.

Whether anyone likes it or not, it's more than probable that there will always be fit, healthy, unwanted dogs getting put down simply because their time is up and there isn't a home for them. That, IMO, is a meaningless (but not cruel) death. Utilising such dogs so that their death benefits other dogs does give their death meaning.

Whether or not the Melb Uni's practices are as good as those at the QLD Uni that sparked this discussion months ago, I have no idea.

[persephone]

..and , to be a bit more graphic .. young vets-in-the-making need to FEEL with their fingers different textures and thicknesses of things- they need to SMELL odours which may be so useful , and they need to SEE organs behaving normally , what cancers look like, how a body reacts to pregnancy ....

[spanky]

sparky and PF, I understand they have ethics committees, but I remain sceptical. It is a healthy scepticism I believe.

I can only comment on UQ and how they handle dead animals (mainly sourced from the abbatoir, we're not up to doing lots with live animals yet) and I promise that ethics is a big big thing and all students are made aware of it.

I've just finished a subject where we had to dissect goats and reproductive tracts of cows etc and some students were taking photos of themselves with the bits and posting them on facebook. They were told to remove them due to ethical requirements and if they did not they would fail the course. So, as far as I'm concerned UQ takes the ethics side very seriously.

[poodlefan]

I'd like to think that a dog destined to die on an operating table in a veterinary school gets a silent thank you from the student that learned from it as it dies. My guess is some of those students will never forget that dog.

If anyone really believes that's a less dignified or less humane death for a dog than euthanasia as one of many in a pound and ending up in a garbage bag at the dump, then I'd appeciate them explaining it to me.

Neither death is ideal. We don't live in an ideal world.

The practical outcome of stopping this practice would be less skilled vets and dogs that died anyway. How is that a win for dogs?

Edited May 4, 2011 by poodlefan

[Trisven13]

I'm assuming that the pregnant dog came from a pound already pregnant and if that is the case it is relevant that in Victoria a pregnant dog is not allowed to be rehomed pregnant, their pregnancy must be aborted and the bitch desexed before rehoming. I would imagine that there are a LOT of pregnant dogs who are unclaimed. I know that Wodonga Dog Rescue have rescued quite a number of bitches who have shown to be pregnant when they were desexed.

If a bitch whelps in the shelter/pound neither she nor her pups can be rehomed.

[Andisa]

I'd like to think that a dog destined to die on an operating table in a veterinary school gets a silent thank you from the student that learned from it as it dies. My guess is some of those students will never forget that dog.

If anyone really believes that's a less dignified or less humane death for a dog than euthanasia as one of many in a pound and ending up in a garbage bag at the dump, then I'd appeciate them explaining it to me.

Neither death is ideal. We don't live in an ideal world.

The practical outcome of stopping this practice would be less skilled vets and dogs that died anyway. How is that a win for dogs?

This ^ ..

Reality can be such a bitch..

Edited May 5, 2011 by Andisa

[Liath]

We have a vet hosp, attached to the univeristy, manned by uni students under supervision of the professors. You make an appt, you see a student, in the presence of a qaulified vet or the student makes a report which is then perused by a professor. It all depends on the urgency of the case. I have no problem going there as these students get to learn. All uni's should have one.

[Rebanne]

And I am CERTAINLY not happy to trust my dogs life on someone who is learning to deal with that... I just don't agree with it. But I respect that others do agree with it.

so how do you propose vet students learn if you aren't willing to let them learn on your pets?

[Sheridan]

And I am CERTAINLY not happy to trust my dogs life on someone who is learning to deal with that... I just don't agree with it. But I respect that others do agree with it.

so how do you propose vet students learn if you aren't willing to let them learn on your pets?

The vets I used to see in Geelong loved it when they had students in and I brought my last kerry blue in. That boy would put up with anything and they could poke and prod all they liked. Of course, Grumpy would be a different prospect for them but I've never seen a vet student in a surgery other than at my previous vet.

[Leelaa17]

And I am CERTAINLY not happy to trust my dogs life on someone who is learning to deal with that... I just don't agree with it. But I respect that others do agree with it.

so how do you propose vet students learn if you aren't willing to let them learn on your pets?

cadavers. And I am willing to let already EXPERIENCED vet students learn on my pets as long as there is an experienced vet assisting them.

And for those vet students to become experienced... again... I say cadavers. I think you missed the bit when we said that we weren't happy to trust our dogs life on someone who was still learning not to be sqeamish around dogs and insides and euthanasia etc etc.

[Sheridan]

And I am CERTAINLY not happy to trust my dogs life on someone who is learning to deal with that... I just don't agree with it. But I respect that others do agree with it.

so how do you propose vet students learn if you aren't willing to let them learn on your pets?

cadavers. And I am willing to let already EXPERIENCED vet students learn on my pets as long as there is an experienced vet assisting them.

And for those vet students to become experienced... again... I say cadavers. I think you missed the bit when we said that we weren't happy to trust our dogs life on someone who was still learning not to be sqeamish around dogs and insides and euthanasia etc etc.

Not sure how you'd learn to diagnose various diseases that depend on the dog not being dead.

And ETA, a bit hypocritical that you're okay with a dog being killed so a vet student can learn as long as it's not done by a student. It's okay, for example, for the dog to be killed at a pound and then transported to a vet hospital?

Edited May 5, 2011 by Sheridan

[frenzied1]

I can see both sides, on the emotional level it is so hard to hear and see ANY dogs being put to sleep but unfortunately society has caused the problem. I do see the merits of the students learning in this way but it makes me feel a little yuck because I am a softie but hopefully realistic enough to know that it is benefitting the vets of the future.

So we have no accurate way of gaining data to make cars safer for kids. And living children suffer as a result. I call that a crying shame.

Without going into it on this thread, as a bereaved parent there is not a chance in hell that I would have allowed my baby to be used for this. It is singular one of the most devastating things to happen to a person and we hold them so precious and dear. I am really irritated at the insensitivity of these comments, maybe I am over reacting but there you have it.

In this day and age I am sure we can recreate a crash test dummy that would be able to simulate the impact etc a car crash would have on a doll.

[Rebanne]

And I am CERTAINLY not happy to trust my dogs life on someone who is learning to deal with that... I just don't agree with it. But I respect that others do agree with it.

so how do you propose vet students learn if you aren't willing to let them learn on your pets?

cadavers. And I am willing to let already EXPERIENCED vet students learn on my pets as long as there is an experienced vet assisting them.

And for those vet students to become experienced... again... I say cadavers. I think you missed the bit when we said that we weren't happy to trust our dogs life on someone who was still learning not to be sqeamish around dogs and insides and euthanasia etc etc.

we? I was quoting and responding to you and I don't recall you qualifying your statement that way - until now.

[Leelaa17]

And I am CERTAINLY not happy to trust my dogs life on someone who is learning to deal with that... I just don't agree with it. But I respect that others do agree with it.

so how do you propose vet students learn if you aren't willing to let them learn on your pets?

cadavers. And I am willing to let already EXPERIENCED vet students learn on my pets as long as there is an experienced vet assisting them.

And for those vet students to become experienced... again... I say cadavers. I think you missed the bit when we said that we weren't happy to trust our dogs life on someone who was still learning not to be sqeamish around dogs and insides and euthanasia etc etc.

Not sure how you'd learn to diagnose various diseases that depend on the dog not being dead.

And ETA, a bit hypocritical that you're okay with a dog being killed so a vet student can learn as long as it's not done by a student. It's okay, for example, for the dog to be killed at a pound and then transported to a vet hospital?

the bold: that doesn't make sense to me?

And Absolutely NOT! Did you not read my first post? I am against euthanasia altogether. I DO NOT think it is an ok to euthanise an animal unless it is dying or in a lot of pain.

this was my post:

I'm sorry but I disagree with all of you. This is completely distressing for me and I am actually SHOCKED that some of you are actually ok with this practice. I understand that everyone has different opinion and I respect that, but my view is no euthanasia. I don't agree with it unless a dog is in serious pain and dying. That's that.

I do agree, however, with you Sparky, because it IS the byb, puppy farms and irresponsible owners that make me furious. It infuriates me. if these f***ers weren't around then there WOULDN'T be any euthanasia and I would be a happy person.

I know that people are going to be like 'well what are you going to do with the dogs that can't be rehomes etc etc etc' - the answer is I don't know what to do with them, but ffs, DON'T kill them. That's my opinion.

In regards to students operating on LIVE animals and then killing them... This is DISGUSTING! Absolutely disgusting. Use cadavers. Thats what humans use... Do we operate on DYING PATIENTS and then ethuanise them? No... But TBH in wouldn't surprise me if euthanasia was legalised in Aus that we 'put people down' so surgeons can practice.

Find. another. way. to. learn.

Absolutely despicable.

And I don't know how you'd learn to diganose various diseases - don't they do that through blood tests, x-rays and other tests? They don't do surgeries to 'diagnose' diseases do they?

[Rebanne]

And I don't know how you'd learn to diganose various diseases - don't they do that through blood tests, x-rays and other tests? They don't do surgeries to 'diagnose' diseases do they?

sometimes they do, blood tests etc don't always show/tell the whole story. Sometimes animals are operated on for a look see. I imagine it's not done as often now as it has been in the past as technology has improved in leaps and bounds.