Dogs Operated On, Then Killed

[Curlybert]

This article is from SMH...I was so upset to read this and wish we could all could do something to stop this terrible waste.

What do you think???

Prof Hinchcliff refused to reveal where the dogs came from, saying only they were "donated".

An RSPCA spokesman said the society believed the university advertised for unwanted pets and former farm and breeding dogs.

Greyhound Victoria admitted it provided dogs to the university.

Not sure why they'd need to advertise - there'd be more than enough candidates available from the Lost Dogs Home.

[~Anne~]

Dogs fitting those descriptions die in Australian pounds every day. Is anyone going to suggest that a pound environment is stress free?

I'm not wild about this practice but lets keep it at the top of our minds that these are not dogs that are going to have a life beyond this anyway.

I am aware of dogs dying in pounds. I have simply raised a few questions and I find it interesting that most are skipping over the things that need questioing in their rapid support for the practice. I support using live animals for education. I'd still like to know more about the program though and how it is run.

Edited May 4, 2011 by ~Anne~

[~Anne~]

This article is from SMH...I was so upset to read this and wish we could all could do something to stop this terrible waste.

What do you think???

Prof Hinchcliff refused to reveal where the dogs came from, saying only they were "donated".

An RSPCA spokesman said the society believed the university advertised for unwanted pets and former farm and breeding dogs.

Greyhound Victoria admitted it provided dogs to the university.

Not sure why they'd need to advertise - there'd be more than enough candidates available from the Lost Dogs Home.

Exactly. I'd also like to know if the Uni pays for the dogs they advertise for.

[Leelaa17]

I don't understand why it upsets people.

The dogs are scheduled to be put to sleep at the pound and instead of getting a needle and thrown in a bin, these dogs get attention from the students and something positive comes from their death.

If you want to get angry / upset direct it at the byb, the puppy farms, the owners that ditch their dogs because they can't be bothered anymore and don't have the guts to take the dog to the vet for pts. Lobby your councils to enforce existing laws, encourage family and friends to desex and rescue or buy from ethical registered breeders.

I'm sorry but I disagree with all of you. This is completely distressing for me and I am actually SHOCKED that some of you are actually ok with this practice. I understand that everyone has different opinion and I respect that, but my view is no euthanasia. I don't agree with it unless a dog is in serious pain and dying. That's that.

I do agree, however, with you Sparky, because it IS the byb, puppy farms and irresponsible owners that make me furious. It infuriates me. if these f***ers weren't around then there WOULDN'T be any euthanasia and I would be a happy person.

I know that people are going to be like 'well what are you going to do with the dogs that can't be rehomes etc etc etc' - the answer is I don't know what to do with them, but ffs, DON'T kill them. That's my opinion.

In regards to students operating on LIVE animals and then killing them... This is DISGUSTING! Absolutely disgusting. Use cadavers. Thats what humans use... Do we operate on DYING PATIENTS and then ethuanise them? No... But TBH in wouldn't surprise me if euthanasia was legalised in Aus that we 'put people down' so surgeons can practice.

Find. another. way. to. learn.

Absolutely despicable.

[poodlefan]

I am aware of dogs dying in pounds. I have simply raised a few questions and I find it interesting that most are skipping over the things that need questioing in their rapid support for the practice. I support using live animals for education. I'd still like to know more about the program though and how it is run.

I'm not skipping over things Anne but I honestly would have to question the accuracy/objectivity of a report seemingly based on the views of one horrified veterinary student.

All I can say is I hope whoever that student is hardens up a little - dealing with dogs that have to be PTS because owners didn't give a damn about injuries or illnesses left untreated or euthanaising perfectly healthy pets that aren't wanted any more is part of the territory unfortunately.

I'm saving my frustration and anger for the owners who have allowed their pets to find their way to those "colony cages". The dogs' fate is sealed.

[Leema]

Many pounds will not sign over animals to be euthed to medical practice. I wish they would. I wouldn't have an issue with these animals being practiced on before being euthed - it seems a good use of resources.

[Leelaa17]

I don't understand why it upsets people.

The dogs are scheduled to be put to sleep at the pound and instead of getting a needle and thrown in a bin, these dogs get attention from the students and something positive comes from their death.

If you want to get angry / upset direct it at the byb, the puppy farms, the owners that ditch their dogs because they can't be bothered anymore and don't have the guts to take the dog to the vet for pts. Lobby your councils to enforce existing laws, encourage family and friends to desex and rescue or buy from ethical registered breeders.

As for students practising their skills at Vet surgeries .... would you want your dog to be the subject? Yes, they do watch, and learn ..but actual surgery, watching how the body reacts, just seeing how the inside of an alive, breathing body works- and what happens when you do X .. that learning is priceless, and I am pleased that the poor dogs/cats who otherwise would have just been needled are contributing to the health/wellbeing of all the loved/owned ones out there.

The world is full of unpleasantness, folks - and some of the unpleasant things need to be done for good things to happen.

There are MUCH WORSE things happening to dogs & cats & budgies all over the world.!!!

I understand exactly where you are coming from. I really do. But I still don't agree with it. This whole thing just makes me cringe.

[poodlefan]

In regards to students operating on LIVE animals and then killing them... This is DISGUSTING! Absolutely disgusting. Use cadavers. Thats what humans use... Do we operate on DYING PATIENTS and then ethuanise them? No... But TBH in wouldn't surprise me if euthanasia was legalised in Aus that we 'put people down' so surgeons can practice.

Find. another. way. to. learn.

Absolutely despicable.

Cadavers don't bleed, don't breathe and don't die when you get it wrong. If you're happy to trust your dogs life to a vet that's learning to deal with that on your pet, then good for you. I'm not.

Its all well and good to be squeamish but some deaths profit others. I'll give you a perfect human example. The reason so little information is available about the impact of severe car accidents on children is because researchers have never had sufficient access to children's cadavers for crash test research. Society can cope with adults being used to build the data that modern crash test dummies incorporate but the child dummies are scaled down adult ones.

So we have no accurate way of gaining data to make cars safer for kids. And living children suffer as a result. I call that a crying shame.

Edited May 4, 2011 by poodlefan

[~Anne~]

I'm not skipping over things Anne but I honestly would have to question the accuracy/objectivity of a report seemingly based on the views of one horrified veterinary student.

Yes, true. The accuracy of the statements must be questioned. Still, there are a lot of statements in that one piece that do not sound just. Where there is smoke there is fire as they say....

[poodlefan]

I'm not skipping over things Anne but I honestly would have to question the accuracy/objectivity of a report seemingly based on the views of one horrified veterinary student.

Yes, true. The accuracy of the statements must be questioned. Still, there are a lot of statements in that one piece that do not sound just. Where there is smoke there is fire as they say....

I doubt any picture painted will be rosy. However the thread about this practice in Brisbane revealed that the colony dogs used there were treated well, got a lot of TLC and their management for procedures and eventual euthanasia was respectful and considerate. Why would Melbourne necessarily be any different.

Edited May 4, 2011 by poodlefan

[Leelaa17]

In regards to students operating on LIVE animals and then killing them... This is DISGUSTING! Absolutely disgusting. Use cadavers. Thats what humans use... Do we operate on DYING PATIENTS and then ethuanise them? No... But TBH in wouldn't surprise me if euthanasia was legalised in Aus that we 'put people down' so surgeons can practice.

Find. another. way. to. learn.

Absolutely despicable.

Cadvers don't bleed, don't breathe and don't die when you get it wrong. If you're happy to trust your dogs life to a vet that's learning to deal with that on your pet, then good for you. I'm not.

Its all well and good to be squeamish but some deaths profit others. I'll give you a perfect human example. The reason so little information is available about the impact of severe car accidents on children is because researchers have never had sufficient access to children's cadavers for crash test research. Society can cope with adults being used to build the data that modern crash test dummies incorporate but the child dummies are scaled down adult ones.

So we have no accurate way of gaining data to make cars safer for kids. And living children suffer as a result. I call that a crying shame.

I know it is hard to learn on cadavers, and it is a constant debate in society I think between whether dogs should be treated with the respect etc as humans... but why, if humans can learn on cadaver humans, why can't they learn on cadaver dogs?

And I am CERTAINLY not happy to trust my dogs life on someone who is learning to deal with that... I just don't agree with it. But I respect that others do agree with it.

And that is interesting about the kids. I think thats a shame as well - but why can't people get a hold of children cadavers? Is it because the parents wont release the body for research?

[~Anne~]

I doubt any picture painted will be rosy. However the thread about this practice in Brisbane revealed that the colony dogs used there were treated well, got a lot of TLC and their management for procedures and eventual euthanasia was respectful and considerate. Why would Melbourne necessarily be any different.

There is a person I know who treats her dogs wonderfully, with great care and love shown all the time, why would any other person be different....

Universities are independant of each other. Of course there would be differences. Is there is this case? No-one knows unless questions are asked.

Edited May 4, 2011 by ~Anne~

[poodlefan]

In regards to students operating on LIVE animals and then killing them... This is DISGUSTING! Absolutely disgusting. Use cadavers. Thats what humans use... Do we operate on DYING PATIENTS and then ethuanise them? No... But TBH in wouldn't surprise me if euthanasia was legalised in Aus that we 'put people down' so surgeons can practice.

Find. another. way. to. learn.

Absolutely despicable.

Cadvers don't bleed, don't breathe and don't die when you get it wrong. If you're happy to trust your dogs life to a vet that's learning to deal with that on your pet, then good for you. I'm not.

Its all well and good to be squeamish but some deaths profit others. I'll give you a perfect human example. The reason so little information is available about the impact of severe car accidents on children is because researchers have never had sufficient access to children's cadavers for crash test research. Society can cope with adults being used to build the data that modern crash test dummies incorporate but the child dummies are scaled down adult ones.

So we have no accurate way of gaining data to make cars safer for kids. And living children suffer as a result. I call that a crying shame.

I know it is hard to learn on cadavers, and it is a constant debate in society I think between whether dogs should be treated with the respect etc as humans... but why, if humans can learn on cadaver humans, why can't they learn on cadaver dogs?

And I am CERTAINLY not happy to trust my dogs life on someone who is learning to deal with that... I just don't agree with it. But I respect that others do agree with it.

And that is interesting about the kids. I think thats a shame as well - but why can't people get a hold of children cadavers? Is it because the parents wont release the body for research?

Yep, grieving parents are quite understandably very reluctant to allow a child's body to be used for such research. The bodies used initially were made available without parental consent. That's no longer possible.

Learning on cadavars of any species is not optimal learning. Society does not and will not condone the use of humans for the kind of research that animals undergo, I'm all in favour of humane treatment of research animals but in my view what Melbourne Uni is doing is humane and does benefit other dogs.

[poodlefan]

I doubt any picture painted will be rosy. However the thread about this practice in Brisbane revealed that the colony dogs used there were treated well, got a lot of TLC and their management for procedures and eventual euthanasia was respectful and considerate. Why would Melbourne necessarily be any different.

There is a person I know who treats her dogs wonderfully, with great care and love shown all the time, why would any other person be different....

Universities are independant of each other. Of course there would be differences. Is there is this case? No-one knows unless questions are asked.

All Universities have ethics committes Anne. Any any living animal research has to pass scrutiny both before and during the process.

You know that.

Edited May 4, 2011 by poodlefan

[spanky]

I tried to quote you Anne, but stupid iPad doesn't scroll so hopefully this makes sense....

The dog colony is potentially a name the journalist has given to the area the dogs are kept to make it sound terrible. If it is like UQ the vet students are expected to volunteer their time to walk the dogs and care for them.

Pregnant bitches turn up in pounds and get pts, same with puppies, so to think the dogs are being bred by the uni is a bit hard for me to believe. Maybe the surgery was to learn to desex a pregnant bitch? If the dog was scheduled to be pts why is it wrong for students to learn the procedure on her?

Some breeders desex their pups before sending home, so I guess they could have been practising early desexing or maybe there are congenital deformities that need to be corrected early on, I mean they operate on human babies, why not puppies?

Again I'd question how much the petrified dog statement has been amped up for the purpose of the article.

Why should they revesl their sources? I would think there are privacy reasons why they don't release that info. Find me an advert and then I'll believe they advertise for dogs.

Anything done by uni's in regards to animals needs to be approved by the ethics board, that is why I don't have a problem with it. I trust the ethics board is making sure things are done properly.

[Cosmolo]

Just to add human doctors are not let loose on live patients straight after their study- vets are.

[Leelaa17]

In regards to students operating on LIVE animals and then killing them... This is DISGUSTING! Absolutely disgusting. Use cadavers. Thats what humans use... Do we operate on DYING PATIENTS and then ethuanise them? No... But TBH in wouldn't surprise me if euthanasia was legalised in Aus that we 'put people down' so surgeons can practice.

Find. another. way. to. learn.

Absolutely despicable.

Cadvers don't bleed, don't breathe and don't die when you get it wrong. If you're happy to trust your dogs life to a vet that's learning to deal with that on your pet, then good for you. I'm not.

Its all well and good to be squeamish but some deaths profit others. I'll give you a perfect human example. The reason so little information is available about the impact of severe car accidents on children is because researchers have never had sufficient access to children's cadavers for crash test research. Society can cope with adults being used to build the data that modern crash test dummies incorporate but the child dummies are scaled down adult ones.

So we have no accurate way of gaining data to make cars safer for kids. And living children suffer as a result. I call that a crying shame.

I know it is hard to learn on cadavers, and it is a constant debate in society I think between whether dogs should be treated with the respect etc as humans... but why, if humans can learn on cadaver humans, why can't they learn on cadaver dogs?

And I am CERTAINLY not happy to trust my dogs life on someone who is learning to deal with that... I just don't agree with it. But I respect that others do agree with it.

And that is interesting about the kids. I think thats a shame as well - but why can't people get a hold of children cadavers? Is it because the parents wont release the body for research?

Yep, grieving parents are quite understandably very reluctant to allow a child's body to be used for such research. The bodies used initially were made available without parental consent. That's no longer possible.

Learning on cadavars of any species is not optimal learning. Society does not and will not condone the use of humans for the kind of research that animals undergo, I'm all in favour of humane treatment of research animals but in my view what Melbourne Uni is doing is humane and does benefit other dogs.

I understand that grieving parents wouldn't want to allow their child to be used as research. I don't know. I just can't bring myself to think it is right.

But I do understand that there may be no other options... but I really, REALLY wish there were.

[Marion 01]

What I would like to know, is, if the animal is euthed before it wakes up, how does anyone know if the "operation" has been a success. A student not properly supervised could be doing something wrong during the procedure without ever knowing the consequences.

[~Anne~]

sparky and PF, I understand they have ethics committees, but I remain sceptical. It is a healthy scepticism I believe.

[poodlefan]

I understand that grieving parents wouldn't want to allow their child to be used as research. I don't know. I just can't bring myself to think it is right.

But I do understand that there may be no other options... but I really, REALLY wish there were.

It's not "right" that healthy dogs are available for these programs because they are unwanted. But they are and these dogs provide learning opportunities that benefit others.

Few issues are as simple as "right" and "wrong". Its the shades of grey and the outcomes/benefits of these dogs deaths than need to be used to place what's happening in perspective.

I have to ponder the irony of Dr Wirth getting his knickers in a twist about this when thousands of dogs spend their entire lives in appalling conditions in puppy mills in his state with barely a murmour of objection from him.

Edited May 4, 2011 by poodlefan