What Is "effective Socialisation"?

[alpha bet]

It is easy to make the whole concept of 'Socialising a Puppy' a complicated and scary idea. As shown the posts already made here any new owner would be scared to take their dogs out at all....

However for trainers who work with families with their pups we should be trying to make the process as easy and fun as possible. We need to give them (humans and pups) the opportunity to explore and learn how to deal with different situations and different dog and human personalities and yet provide them with an environment that can support them during the process.. How can we do this........ mmmmmmm now that is the question!

Building social skills is my speciality area. We base the social program on Education- we don't run 6 week puppy class we run ongoing pup classes to cover the different stages of development - so have built our own "Dog Park".

Here we have a secure fenced area 50m x 20m where pups can work and play off lead and trainers have the chance to move around and show individual humans how to deal with situations. Learning when to step in and when to leave things to sort themselves out. We also have a 5 acre fenced paddock with a big dam where we can take the pups for off lead group walks and even a chance to learn how to handle a meeting with a pony or goat.

We can incorporate 9 week old pups or older little white fluffies with say six month pups as well as our own adult dogs to vary the social experience. We also incorporate families and kids into the classes and this gives pups who dont meet kids a good chance to interact.

Pups I personally breed go to new homes at 8-10 weeks and have already met at least 50 humans (adults and kids). When they go home I challenge each of them (and other puppy clients) to get the pups social contact up to 100 humans by the time they are 4 months old.

Most dogs are family pets first (and that takes in soooo many types of families) so all dogs need to learn how to cope with a big variety of humans.

We also run a similiar system of classes for older dogs - some are pups who have grown with our system and others may be adults who have come here with some social issues. We are always looking at new ideas and prepared to try things - on the last trip to USA one of the things we did was wander around to the dog parks, beaches, day care and training classes and see what was happening there.

I know I go on a bit - but I did say that social skills is my thing - and I am proud to say that dogs and humans from our classes can handle themselves when they are out in all types of public places - they also know good manners.

(Oh as far as creating working focus - socialising your dog does not mean your dog will value other dogs over you - once dogs have the basic foundation and the humans want to do more we run skills classes where we build up tricks and games as well as looking at running fun competition days. We also have handlers who are keen to start a Demo Team and do some public promo work to encourage families to have responsible attitudes. These humans/dogs have built amazing focus and teamwork while having fun and can perform some complicated exercises that many agility or obedience competitors would envy.)

In conclusion - we need more and more trainers to open up their ideas and add new and interesting concepts to families to help them build the skills so their dogs can cope with different situations. Trainers around the country need to seek locations that provide more flexiblility - The families want to learn and have fun with their dogs we have to develop our classes around this.

Edited May 5, 2011 by alpha bet

[huski]

Oh as far as creating working focus - socialising your dog does not mean your dog will value other dogs over you...

I agree, because in my mind socialising a dog is just giving it a new experience and assigning that experience a value. However, one of the biggest mistakes I see people make with their dogs is socialising them to have too high a value for other dogs. I see this in the majority of people who bring their dogs to the obedience club I instruct at. My preference is that my dogs have a low positive to neutral value of other dogs because I don't see the point in having a dog that has a high value for other dogs and I socialise them with that as a goal.

[JoeK]

It is easy to make the whole concept of 'Socialising a Puppy' a complicated and scary idea. As shown the posts already made here any new owner would be scared to take their dogs out at all....

However for trainers who work with families with their pups we should be trying to make the process as easy and fun as possible. We need to give them (humans and pups) the opportunity to explore and learn how to deal with different situations and different dog and human personalities and yet provide them with an environment that can support them during the process.. How can we do this........ mmmmmmm now that is the question!

Building social skills is my speciality area. We base the social program on Education- we don't run 6 week puppy class we run ongoing pup classes to cover the different stages of development - so have built our own "Dog Park".

Here we have a secure fenced area 50m x 20m where pups can work and play off lead and trainers have the chance to move around and show individual humans how to deal with situations. Learning when to step in and when to leave things to sort themselves out. We also have a 5 acre fenced paddock with a big dam where we can take the pups for off lead group walks and even a chance to learn how to handle a meeting with a pony or goat.

We can incorporate 9 week old pups or older little white fluffies with say six month pups as well as our own adult dogs to vary the social experience. We also incorporate families and kids into the classes and this gives pups who dont meet kids a good chance to interact.

Pups I personally breed go to new homes at 8-10 weeks and have already met at least 50 humans (adults and kids). When they go home I challenge each of them (and other puppy clients) to get the pups social contact up to 100 humans by the time they are 4 months old.

Most dogs are family pets first (and that takes in soooo many types of families) so all dogs need to learn how to cope with a big variety of humans.

We also run a similiar system of classes for older dogs - some are pups who have grown with our system and others may be adults who have come here with some social issues. We are always looking at new ideas and prepared to try things - on the last trip to USA one of the things we did was wander around to the dog parks, beaches, day care and training classes and see what was happening there.

I know I go on a bit - but I did say that social skills is my thing - and I am proud to say that dogs and humans from our classes can handle themselves when they are out in all types of public places - they also know good manners.

(Oh as far as creating working focus - socialising your dog does not mean your dog will value other dogs over you - once dogs have the basic foundation and the humans want to do more we run skills classes where we build up tricks and games as well as looking at running fun competition days. We also have handlers who are keen to start a Demo Team and do some public promo work to encourage families to have responsible attitudes. These humans/dogs have built amazing focus and teamwork while having fun and can perform some complicated exercises that many agility or obedience competitors would envy.)

In conclusion - we need more and more trainers to open up their ideas and add new and interesting concepts to families to help them build the skills so their dogs can cope with different situations. Trainers around the country need to seek locations that provide more flexiblility - The families want to learn and have fun with their dogs we have to develop our classes around this.

What you telling us here in your environment sound very good I agree and is very good to teach the dog how to handle the inviroment you providing, but all it taking is one of these dogs learning here to be attacked on the street by nasty off leash dog and all training can fly out the window? If the dog has social nature in the genes and good nerve, the dog will be fine with minimal socialise. If you putting a dog in this procedure high in social aggression in the genes, he will not be leaving this school flying like a social butterfly, if he does from the training in this enviroment is possible, down the road in different envirnment where no body to him belong, his gene kick back to social aggression is what happens.

I am not saying is not good concept, is very good concept, but what I saying is that putting every dog into the concept will not automatically produce excellent social dog in the result on all dogs unless the dog has the genes to supporting of this.

Joe

[JoeK]

Oh as far as creating working focus - socialising your dog does not mean your dog will value other dogs over you...

I agree, because in my mind socialising a dog is just giving it a new experience and assigning that experience a value. However, one of the biggest mistakes I see people make with their dogs is socialising them to have too high a value for other dogs. I see this in the majority of people who bring their dogs to the obedience club I instruct at. My preference is that my dogs have a low positive to neutral value of other dogs because I don't see the point in having a dog that has a high value for other dogs and I socialise them with that as a goal.

Socialising the dog present a risk on the working folk for the value on other dogs is why most of high level sporting dogs are trained and kenneled to prevent the possibility and causing to train around the problem. It dedends on the dog, some have no problems with the socialise and maintaining focus on the handler, some dogs once they find value on another dog is very hard to brakeing the pleasure. Is true the way the socialising is done for the dog to have high value for other dogs like let them having a free for all in the dog park is what causing the high value is not foundation to train handler focus.

Joe

[RallyValley]

Oh as far as creating working focus - socialising your dog does not mean your dog will value other dogs over you...

I agree, because in my mind socialising a dog is just giving it a new experience and assigning that experience a value. However, one of the biggest mistakes I see people make with their dogs is socialising them to have too high a value for other dogs. I see this in the majority of people who bring their dogs to the obedience club I instruct at. My preference is that my dogs have a low positive to neutral value of other dogs because I don't see the point in having a dog that has a high value for other dogs and I socialise them with that as a goal.

Socialising the dog present a risk on the working folk for the value on other dogs is why most of high level sporting dogs are trained and kenneled to prevent the possibility and causing to train around the problem. It dedends on the dog, some have no problems with the socialise and maintaining focus on the handler, some dogs once they find value on another dog is very hard to brakeing the pleasure. Is true the way the socialising is done for the dog to have high value for other dogs like let them having a free for all in the dog park is what causing the high value is not foundation to train handler focus.

Joe

Yes it is a fine balance - for me dog sports are something I do for fun so the next time I get a dog I would prefer something in the middle ground but if I had to have one problem I would much rather that my dog liked other dogs to much and knew how to react to them appropriately then was aggressive/reacted to aggresively. An aggressive dog is not a dog my family can live with . I fully understand though people with dedicated sports dogs who are not 'all rounders' like I expect who use neutralization. My dog has to live with the family too, who are not so knowledgeable of dog interactions and body language, my mum walks him, my dad takes him on fishing holidays, my brother drops in with his dog.

With my comments earlier - my dog Toby was not socialised when young and is socially awkward, he is JUST learning ( he is 3 in June) how to approach another dog correctly (not going straight in to sniff them on the face) and things like play bows. His lack of socialization did not make him aggresive but his demeanour made other dogs react aggresively to him.

Also with Toby I found that the more social interaction he has the less interested he is in other dogs.

Edited May 5, 2011 by RallyValley

[fuzzy82]

I think neutralisation is a bit sad. It's basically saying that the dog doesn't get to have any reinforcement from it's environment (ie having fun) and that all reinforcement comes from the owner. I guess the dog doesn't know any better because it has never experienced anything different, but I think it's sad. Dogs should be allowed to be dogs, and have fun and play with other dogs. They are not robots that hang around for our pleasure.

You can socialise your dog and let them have fun and play with other people and dogs and still have a dog that is highly focused on the handler. It's all in the training.

And if socialising means they are slightly less focused on me (which I am not convinced of) then I would rather accept that and let them have fun than taking away their fun for the sake of getting them to focus entirely on me.

[moosmum]

The way neutralisation has been explained to me is that the dog has a neutral to low positive value for things outside the handler and it's immediate family. It doesn't mean the dog is never socialised with other dogs or never sees another dog or is never around other dogs (quite the opposite in fact) but that it's taught other dogs are not high value or highly rewarding.

This.

This is how I see neutralisation too.The dog is most definitely socialised,but with the handler always ready to step in and enforce rules that guide any interaction so it goes as smoothly as possible for all concerned.If controll is lost,so is the interaction.You walk away. The dog learns interaction is on your terms.

I have seen it as you are not actively trying to "neutralise" the dog,but thats the desired end result of correct and responsible socialization.

And I agree with Joe.In a dog park situation theres little controll.An "in your face" dog is not my responsibility.Controll of my dog and myself is.Though I would not let my dog attack,I would certainly allow her to defend herself.

[alpha bet]

Joe, in the public park situation if someone else's dog is a potentional problem then the objective is to control your own space. With good skills, the humans can contain their own dog and step in and block another dog from entering their space.

One big advantage of teaching both handler and dog to have strong social skills is that when they are out in public they are more aware of their surroundings in relation to the dog and then more able to learn the skills to deal with or avoid problems.

I have many dogs who thru bad experiences have developed what many call 'dog aggression' - once the owners start to protect their dog from any encounter the dog never has the chance to learn. Dogs are god damm smarter than us humans give them credit. They are capable of learning that a bad experience is not the end.

As I said the reality is that most dogs live as pets and need to learn how to be dogs. The worst case dogs we get are always dogs who don't know how to play with others - just like watching a group of kids in a playground, the ones who have the problems are the ones who don't have the ability to mix and match with a variety of peers.

Of course the dna of the dog takes a big part but most dogs want to be around others and even with some bad experiences when placed in an environment they can learn to adjust and develop provided they have owners who make the effort and commit. We need to build the dogs self confidence then they dont need to be a wimp nor a bully.

Us as trainers need to be there to help not confuse.

Edited May 5, 2011 by alpha bet

[JoeK]

Joe, in the public park situation if someone else's dog is a potentional problem then the objective is to control your own space. With good skills, the humans can contain their own dog and step in and block another dog from entering their space.

One big advantage of teaching both handler and dog to have strong social skills is that when they are out in public they are more aware of their surroundings in relation to the dog and then more able to learn the skills to deal with or avoid problems.

I have many dogs who thru bad experiences have developed what many call 'dog aggression' - once the owners start to protect their dog from any encounter the dog never has the chance to learn. Dogs are god damm smarter than us humans give them credit. They are capable of learning that a bad experience is not the end.

As I said the reality is that most dogs live as pets and need to learn how to be dogs. The worst case dogs we get are always dogs who don't know how to play with others - just like watching a group of kids in a playground, the ones who have the problems are the ones who don't have the ability to mix and match with a variety of peers.

Of course the dna of the dog takes a big part but most dogs want to be around others and even with some bad experiences when placed in an environment they can learn to adjust and develop provided they have owners who make the effort and commit. We need to build the dogs self confidence then they dont need to be a wimp nor a bully.

Us as trainers need to be there to help not confuse.

I understanding if say 10 people get togther in the park with their dogs with some good trainers to do the socialise and teaching both the dogs and handlers the skills in that inviroment and they do this once a week. Of course the skills is developed and in the meeting of those people and the dogs all taught the same way everthing working well and is good. But on the street meeting with the other dogs, these other dogs and the handlers dont have skills which changes the game from the socialisation and training in the park on the controlled invironemnt. So learning the skill to greet a nice dog doesnt help much when the nasty dog rush from the gate for greeting your dog with a big set of choppers to bite him. Same goes for the general dog park if reactive dog is on the loose, he line up your dog from 20 meters away to have a chomp so the social skill of your dog doesnt matter when that happens. So becuase the social skills dont helping much on the street becuse the rules changing with every dog encountered that doesnt have any social skill or handler control, whats the point of the skill for the general pet ownership? The skill only working amoungst the like minded people with the controlled dog and those people dont create the problems for us on the street walking?

Joe

[JoeK]

What I found after raising and training many of the German Shepherd Dog all socialised in the neutral it depends on the dog how he behaving. I had some dogs were beautiful in the neutral dogs could run at them and bark, nothing, the dog completely ignor and keep going. I have had other dogs trained in the neutral the same way and they reactive to other dogs near their face and want to kill them? Some may say this happens becuase the dog had no socialise at the puppy, but my other boy didnt either but he not reactive so we having anomoly here yes?

The reason why one of my dog reactive on the dog in his face, is becuase he is a sharper and more civil dog in his genes than my non reacting dog I know this myself but is not the socialise causing this its in the dog already in the genes. If I socialise my reactive dog from the puppy, I would see the reactivity earlier but still I would have to address training the reactivity out, is not automatic fixing becuase of the socialise or neither would the socialise have stopped a reactive episoding on this temperament of the dog.

A lady once come to me she say Joe they kick me out from the dog club becuase my Shepherd Dog attack another dog and they tell me she says he wasnt socialised properly causing his reactions. She tells me Joe, I did the puppy schooling right up to the adolecsent schooling and is everything right in the socialise but suddenly my dog is not liking other dogs and he want to bite them?

I look onto this lady dog and sure enough hes sharpness and civil drive surface and we have to retraining him to behave. Is nothing to do with the lady socialise, she did it right by the book of club, the reactivity is in the dogs genes is how the dog is and 13 months old this dog was when the drive to reacting surface. she probably didnt see it coming in the body language, but he was ok with the dogs and the next week he attacking one is what happens on this temperament in the dog.

Many people blaming themselves for the reactive dog, they didnt socialise properly, they didnt doing this or that right, but often the reactivity is in the dog in his genes and doesnt matter what you done one day is surfacing and you have to retrain the dog to fix if it happening. Much of the good behavior and trainability in the dog comes from his genes is not all about how you socialise him and what you do right or wrong, some dogs are better than others for adapting to a pet environment with a better temperment than others in the genes.

Joe

[huski]

Socialising the dog present a risk on the working folk for the value on other dogs is why most of high level sporting dogs are trained and kenneled to prevent the possibility and causing to train around the problem. It dedends on the dog, some have no problems with the socialise and maintaining focus on the handler, some dogs once they find value on another dog is very hard to brakeing the pleasure. Is true the way the socialising is done for the dog to have high value for other dogs like let them having a free for all in the dog park is what causing the high value is not foundation to train handler focus.

Neutralising a dog is NOT about putting it in a kennel and never socialising it or exposing it to anything new. It's about socialising the dog extensively like you should but socialising it to things and assigning those things with a neutral or low positive value.

I think neutralisation is a bit sad. It's basically saying that the dog doesn't get to have any reinforcement from it's environment (ie having fun) and that all reinforcement comes from the owner. I guess the dog doesn't know any better because it has never experienced anything different, but I think it's sad. Dogs should be allowed to be dogs, and have fun and play with other dogs. They are not robots that hang around for our pleasure.

You can socialise your dog and let them have fun and play with other people and dogs and still have a dog that is highly focused on the handler. It's all in the training.

And if socialising means they are slightly less focused on me (which I am not convinced of) then I would rather accept that and let them have fun than taking away their fun for the sake of getting them to focus entirely on me.

Like I said above - IMO neutralising a dog is not about not socialising it. It's all about the value you attach to new experiences when you do.

I don't understand the desire to have dogs that find playing with other dogs highly rewarding. Daisy is naturally a dog that has low interest in other dogs, she rarely wants to play with them, and when she does she never sees play with other dogs as more valuable or fun than what I can offer. I don't see how that is sad, she's "allowed" to be a dog, she gets to do far more exciting and fun things than the average dog, she's certainly not unhappy.

The average pet owner may want something different from their dog but I don't understand why it's so important that your dog plays with other dogs day in day out. We have far more fun and exciting things to do

[corvus]

And I agree with Joe.In a dog park situation theres little controll.An "in your face" dog is not my responsibility.Controll of my dog and myself is.Though I would not let my dog attack,I would certainly allow her to defend herself.

I would rather not HAVE to allow my dog to defend himself in a dog park, and truly, we go there everyday and I have only failed in that aim maybe 3 times. Little Erik doesn't like it when dogs bite his face, particularly when he's running. He doesn't just up and defend himself the moment it happens. He first tries telling the other dog that he is not having fun. I don't wait around for him to escalate. I WANT him to tell other dogs nicely that he isn't happy, because he's a super proactive dog and if he learns that his polite signals get ignored he won't bother using them in the future. So we make sure those signals get honoured one way or another and then we don't have to stress about staffy mixes who like to play bitey face on the run and take offence when they are told to quit it, or Vallhunds that have decided they need to drive off all staffy mixes before they try to play bitey face with him on the run.

Honestly, if you have control of your dog, and you can read them well, then you have loads of control of the situation right there. Tilt the odds in your favour further by picking a walk-through park that is unfenced, and if your dog is also very well socialised, they can take care of most situations themselves anyway. Occasionally someone will bring a dog to the park that just runs at the nearest dog and attacks it. You hear about it, because everyone warns everyone else. I've heard about 3 incidences in the last 3 years that have resulted in injuries. It's always someone new that hasn't been seen before and they usually disappear soon after. So-called 'reactive' dogs are not a problem unless your dog can't pick them and you can't pick them. They won't do anything until they feel threatened, and they DO give warning before they fly off the handle. My dogs know what they look like and leave them alone. I don't even have to tell them most of the time.

I think the very notion that a dog can have too high a value for its own species is ludicrous. You wouldn't say your kid likes other kids too much. I think more likely the problems lie in training and conditioning. The dogs we meet at the park that follow us and ignore their owner because they want to play with our dogs, what do their owners do with them? They are not even throwing a ball for them. They bring them to the park and let them loose, then have to keep running back to grab their collar and drag them away. They don't reward their dogs, so why would their dogs want to spend time with them? My dogs adore other dogs, but they have a play and then come back to check in because it's what they've been trained to do. My dogs recall away from a game because we spent so much time training it. My dogs behave in ways they have been conditioned to. If I have a problem with their focus around other dogs, it wouldn't be that their value for their own species is too high. It would be that they have not been conditioned to pay attention to me when I ask for it properly.

[aussielover]

I don't know Huski, you have more than one dog (you lucky thing!), so Daisy is constantly able to interact with them if she chooses. I think it is beneficial for dogs to interact with their own species on a regular basis. They are after all, a pack species. I personally get a lot of enjoyment from seeing my dog playing happily with another dog and other dogs give my dog the type of exercise and play I could never give her. I intend to add another dog to my house in the future.

I often find dogs from multi-dog households are much more relaxed with other dogs and do not have a high value for them, probably from living with another dog all the time.

Mindy is a labrador, a breed known to have a high value for other dogs, but because she sees and plays with other dogs every day (despite not living with one) she generally does not behave in a stupid manner around them, doesn't drag me toward them and is happy to be called away from them (calling her off a scent or a rabbit chase is a different matter though. We are working on it ).

She was one of the few very handler focussed dogs (apart from one other puppy who lived with another dog) at her guide dog sessions and was capable of working and focussing for the handler in very close proximity of around 20-30 other labrador puppies (who were going nuts!) which I think was pretty good.

We are starting agility this weekend and I hope she can behave herself there too! We will see...

Corvus- Erik wouldn't like Mindy then lol She loves the bitey face game!

Edited May 5, 2011 by aussielover

[corvus]

The average pet owner may want something different from their dog but I don't understand why it's so important that your dog plays with other dogs day in day out. We have far more fun and exciting things to do

Goodness gracious, have you never seen two dogs having a really good rumble? It is the most blissfully joyful experience, and it puts a smile on my face every time. The creativity my dogs display when they play with each other is not replicated anywhere else in their lives, including when I'm shaping them! They learn all sorts of things in play, and there is nothing on this earth I can do with them that is more fun to them than wrestling with each other. Except maybe playing with the flirt pole for Erik. He's nuts about that thing. I wouldn't have it any other way. Seeing that pure joy, laughing when they do something unexpected or outrageously obnoxious to each other, being incredulous when they use a behaviour they learnt in training to evade a pursuer, and just enjoying watching them in full flight... Why WOULDN'T you want that?? It's my greatest joy in owning two dogs. I don't know what I'd ever do if I had dogs that didn't love to rumble. It would be boring.

[aussielover]

Not all dogs enjoy playing, which is fair enough. I guess its like not all humans love partying or socialising.

However, I still believe all dogs should be given the chance to interact with their own species on a regular basis. This doesn't have to be full on rough and tumble play, but at least being around other dogs, whether this be at home with the company of another dog/s or on walks, training at the park etc.

[poodlefan]

Not all dogs enjoy playing, which is fair enough. I guess its like not all humans love partying or socialising.

However, I still believe all dogs should be given the chance to interact with their own species on a regular basis. This doesn't have to be full on rough and tumble play, but at least being around other dogs, whether this be at home with the company of another dog/s or on walks, training at the park etc.

I think the important qualifier is that not all dogs (indeed I'd argue most dogs) enjoy playing with strangers once they're mature. I know (and own) some extremely playful dogs that would never engage in play with a dog they didnt' know.. then there's Howard

But we're not socialising our dogs just to teach them to "play". We doing it to teach them the appropriate social cues to deal with all kinds of dogs - and to know when their attention isn't wanted. I would argue that it's far more important that a pup spend time with reliable adult dogs both as a baby and an adolescent than that it play with other pups. Other pups are great for teaching bite inhibition and we need to do that because we take them from their mother and their littermates that would provide those lessons.

Dogs are territorial, pack animals. We've modified some of their instincts in some of the breeds but the idea of greeting and playing with a strange dog (particularly one significantly different in size) would not be something that's instinctive for many. I think most dogs benefit from living with canine companionship but I dont' think you find that down the dog park with any dog on any day. You do see dogs adopt pack behaviour at dog parks if the same dogs attend regularly at the same time. But its not that common.

Friend of mine had a large pup with her at a show a while back and screeched in horror when my toy poodle bitch verbally told it off for jumping on her. That's an appropriate response and a lesson learned. You don't want your pups socialising only with tolerant dogs - fastest way to raise a 'brat' I can think of.

Some of the roughest dogs I know have learned their play style in the offlead dog parks and woe betide any owner who objects to their dog being jumped on, body slammed or mouthed. An objection from any dog to this behaviour sees a look of horror from the rude dog's owner and a label of "aggressive" applied to yours. The worst dog I know is never corrected by the owner - if you have an issue with what its doing, as far as the owner is concerned you can deal with it.

Edited May 5, 2011 by poodlefan

[huski]

I think the very notion that a dog can have too high a value for its own species is ludicrous. You wouldn't say your kid likes other kids too much.

Well excluding the fact that dog's aren't children and you really cannot compare them...

When the dog's value for other dogs exceeds the value the dog has for the handler, that is when it's too high. When a dog will pull it's owner off their feet to get to another dog, the dog's value for other dogs is too high. When a dog can't focus around other dogs, gets over aroused at the sight of other dogs and ignores the handler completely, that is when the value is too high.

I don't know Huski, you have more than one dog (you lucky thing!), so Daisy is constantly able to interact with them if she chooses. I think it is beneficial for dogs to interact with their own species on a regular basis. They are after all, a pack species. I personally get a lot of enjoyment from seeing my dog playing happily with another dog and other dogs give my dog the type of exercise and play I could never give her. I intend to add another dog to my house in the future.

I often find dogs from multi-dog households are much more relaxed with other dogs and do not have a high value for them, probably from living with another dog all the time.

Just because someone has multiple dogs does not mean they are run together 24/7. My dogs rarely play together, they get along well in that we don't have any fights or misbehaviour and I don't think they dislike each other by any means but they all enjoy time on their own and would be happy in a single dog household. When I get my new puppy she won't be run with my adult dogs either.

I will never understand the "dogs are pack animals" argument for taking your dog to the dog park or having them play with others all the time. The dogs at the dog park, random dogs on the street etc are NOT part of their pack, so why is considered natural that a dog plays with dozens and dozens of dogs outside of their pack?

The average pet owner may want something different from their dog but I don't understand why it's so important that your dog plays with other dogs day in day out. We have far more fun and exciting things to do

Goodness gracious, have you never seen two dogs having a really good rumble? It is the most blissfully joyful experience, and it puts a smile on my face every time. The creativity my dogs display when they play with each other is not replicated anywhere else in their lives, including when I'm shaping them! They learn all sorts of things in play, and there is nothing on this earth I can do with them that is more fun to them than wrestling with each other. Except maybe playing with the flirt pole for Erik. He's nuts about that thing. I wouldn't have it any other way. Seeing that pure joy, laughing when they do something unexpected or outrageously obnoxious to each other, being incredulous when they use a behaviour they learnt in training to evade a pursuer, and just enjoying watching them in full flight... Why WOULDN'T you want that?? It's my greatest joy in owning two dogs. I don't know what I'd ever do if I had dogs that didn't love to rumble. It would be boring.

Well I have a dog who has very little interest in playing with other dogs and I can assure you it is not boring. I find watching a dog working excitedly with their owner far more joyful than watching dogs play with each other. My dog will 99% of the time choose herself to track scents instead of play with other dogs, so yes, I really fail to see what is so important or exciting about dogs playing with each other.

This is something a breeder raised with me recently when I went out to meet her dogs, she wanted to make it clear to me that genetically her dogs will have little interest in playing with other dogs because it's simply impractical to have a working dog out in the field that wants to run off and play with other dogs. That's not even something the dogs have to be socialised or taught to do - they just naturally have a low value for other dogs because that is how they were bred. Which is ideal from my perspective.

[aussielover]

Not all dogs enjoy playing, which is fair enough. I guess its like not all humans love partying or socialising.

However, I still believe all dogs should be given the chance to interact with their own species on a regular basis. This doesn't have to be full on rough and tumble play, but at least being around other dogs, whether this be at home with the company of another dog/s or on walks, training at the park etc.

I think the important qualifier is that not all dogs (indeed I'd argue most dogs) enjoy playing with strangers once they're mature. I know (and own) some extremely playful dogs that would never engage in play with a dog they didnt' know.. then there's Howard

But we're not socialising with dogs them to teach them to "play". We doing it to teach them the appropriate social cues to deal with all kinds of dogs - and to know when their attention isn't wanted. I would argue that it's far more important that a pup spend time with reliable adult dogs both as a baby and an adolescent than that it play with other pups. Other pups are great for teaching bite inhibition and we need to do that because we take them from their mother and their littermates that would provide those lessons.

Dogs are territorial, pack animals. We've modified some of their instincts in some of the breeds but the idea of greeting and playing with a strange dog (particularly one significantly different in size) would not be something that's instinctive for many.

Friend of mine had a large pup with her at a show a while back and screeched in horror when my toy poodle bitch verbally told it off for jumping on her. That's an appropriate response and a lesson learned. You don't want your pups socialising only with tolerant dogs - fastest way to raise a 'brat' I can think of.

I absolutely agree. But how many people in the general population have access to well behaved, mature dogs that can give an appropriate correction? It is a shame there aren't separate puppy classes that can help owners do this. I admit my own adult dog would be useless as she is extremely tolerant.

[poodlefan]

Corvus:

I think the very notion that a dog can have too high a value for its own species is ludicrous.

I can think of any number of breeds where that would be an issue. A dog cannot defend livestock or property, hunt or work in the company of other dogs unless it can focus on the task, not the company its in. Imagine if guide dogs had such a value on other dogs

As has been discussed anywhere, its damn hard to train a dog in any multi-dog environment if the dog values the other dogs more highly than any motivator the handler can provide. I see this regularly.

Much of what we've done with selective breeding has modified the dog's pack instincts. If we hadn't, we'd have a lot of trouble keeping dogs singly - and for some breeds I'd argue this is still the case.

Edited May 5, 2011 by poodlefan

[poodlefan]

I absolutely agree. But how many people in the general population have access to well behaved, mature dogs that can give an appropriate correction? It is a shame there aren't separate puppy classes that can help owners do this. I admit my own adult dog would be useless as she is extremely tolerant.

I think its actually easier than people realise and that membership of a decent dog club (or indeed this forum) could provide such access. Its all about tapping into the network of dog tragics that's out there. Most dog tragics I know go all gooey at baby puppies and the more knowledgeable ones will know if they have a dog suitable for the task.