What Is "effective Socialisation"?

[poodlefan]

I'm starting this thread because there seems to be some confusion among puppy owners as to how and why they need to socialise their pups.

I'll leave to the experts to outline fear periods and learning experiences but want to focus on the more practical aspects of the process.

"Socialisation" IMO basically means accustoming a dog into its new home and community and equipping it with basic experiences that will allow it to function happily and appropriately in that community.

When I socialise my babies, I do a range of things:

1. Take them to an effectively run puppy pre-school that provides for controlled interactions with other pups in a safe, sterile environment.

2. Take them to friend's homes and introduce them to new people and safe dogs I know will give positive experiences

3. Once fully vaccinated, take them out and about, sometimes on their own and sometimes with other dogs for as many different experiences as I can get. That includes meeting kids, cats, and as many people as possible.

4. Continue an ongoing process of controlled introductions and play with other dogs to equip them with canine social skills. That always includes training at my dog club.

What I don't do is EVER put my pups in a situation where the reactions of dogs or people are unknown or where a bad experience is hard to prevent. That rules out public offlead dog parks TOTALLY.

I'm going to cut and paste a most of a post I made in another thread about what you're looking for for those first steps with other dogs (other than littermates that is). The point I'd like to make is about the sort of dogs a baby pup needs to meet:

When starting out to socialise a new dog or pup some folks will say "he needs to meet Rover, Rover LOVES other dogs". Interpet this to mean that Rover is possibly extremely exhuberant with other dogs and doesn't read them all that well.

What a timid dog/pup needs to build confidence at first is not a "friendly dog" but an INDIFFERENT dog. Not one that's going to rush up, bowl it over or pounce on it but one that will go "a puppy? Great - now what else is happening". A dog that will give distance but not react aversively to attempts to initiate contact/play is the best confidence builder you can get. Add to that the importance of building a bond of trust and confidence in the handler. A handler that has built that will give confidence to a dog in new and unusual situations. This is why I always recommend a program of formal training for new dog owners - not just for the skills and manners taught but for the process of creating a bond between dog and handler.

Below is a pic of controlled puppy socialisation in action - the moment my friend's working ESS puppy saw her first poodle - check out the look of uncertainty on the pup's face. (Lets call this the "WTF moment" at which point the experience can go either way) She was really quite worried. Big Ted really wasn't at all interested. He was headed for the treats. Nothing bad happened and the pup gained confidence as a result. ETA: This wasn't a timid pup by the way - just a baby experiencing dogs unlike herself for the first time. After a few minutes she was completely relaxed.

When you're socialising a pup you want the biggest range of ages, sizes and breeds you can get for your dog to safely meet (one reason I don't favour breed based dog club training) and you want to do it not just for a baby puppy but for adolescent dogs also. Small dogs NEED to meet larger dogs that will behave appropriately and large pups NEED to meet small dogs so they know they aren't prey and they aren't squeaky toys either.

Socialisation starts the day you bring your puppy home and needs to be ongoing for months. I'd not consider a dog to be fully socialised until its fully mature. Puppies get a license from adult dogs that will expire and they need to learn in a safe environment about how to behave around adults, not just other youngsters.

Appropriate discipline for rude behaviour is a great way for pups to learn this. And the best teachers are other dogs, vetted for the appropriateness and predictibility of their reaction to pups. Allowing your dog or pup to be bullied or harassed by others is not effective socialisation.

Hopefully others will join in with more information about how to safely socialise a pup.

Edited May 4, 2011 by poodlefan

[Kitteh]

Thanks for starting this thread PF. I'll be following it closely. I'd love to socialise my dog more (he's 15 weeks), but, considering 1) he's in a fear period and 2) I'm a noob when it comes to spotting what is and isn't "appropriate" behaviour from other dogs, I'm very wary to.

Harps has already been to puppy pre school, and he did really well there, but I'd like him to learn how to behave around other adult dogs. It's finding a neutral dog that's the problem for me.

[poodlefan]

Thanks for starting this thread PF. I'll be following it closely. I'd love to socialise my dog more (he's 15 weeks), but, considering 1) he's in a fear period and 2) I'm a noob when it comes to spotting what is and isn't "appropriate" behaviour from other dogs, I'm very wary to.

Harps has already been to puppy pre school, and he did really well there, but I'd like him to learn how to behave around other adult dogs. It's finding a neutral dog that's the problem for me.

Join a good dog club ASAP if there is one in your area. Not only will you gain skills but you'll soon find owners with dogs you dog likes and that are willing to meet up socially. They are ideal places to network in that regard.

I bet there are experienced WA based dog owners here that would probably respond to a request for a meet up.

I LOVE places like fetes and shows too - you can start on the outskirts, get your pup relaxed and build up to more crowded and noisy spots. And few people can resist patting a pup!!

Edited May 4, 2011 by poodlefan

[Guest english.ivy]

The only thing I regret with my Pointer pup is not introducing him to children. I never went anywhere that had kids and with my interpersonal issues, I never approached people to ask them to allow their kids to play with my puppy.

So now I have to find children for him to realise they aren't going to harm him.

Truthfully I didn't think he'd grow up and be scared of kids but he is. My Belgian adores children but her breeder has children.

[poodlefan]

The only thing I regret with my Pointer pup is not introducing him to children. I never went anywhere that had kids and with my interpersonal issues, I never approached people to ask them to allow their kids to play with my puppy.

So now I have to find children for him to realise they aren't going to harm him.

Truthfully I didn't think he'd grow up and be scared of kids but he is. My Belgian adores children but her breeder has children.

Be careful with this. A fear based reaction could see a child in danger - hasten slowly. I'd be working on having him in the proximity of children before any greetings. Start with older children and work down from there. Muzzle if required for total safety.

You're not alone. I know of a few dogs who missed out on this experience and are frightened of kids as a result. In at least one case, that manifests as fear aggression.

Again, its my dog club/dog show network that provides dog savvy kids for puppy socialisation. I don't have kids but I want dogs that are tolerant of them.

Honestly I don't think you could buy socialisation opportunities as good as a country agricultural/dog show.. animals, dogs, kids, rides - you name it, its there. Its a great reason to show pups, even if you don't go on with it.

Edited May 4, 2011 by poodlefan

[W Sibs]

For me, socialisation is a life long thing, very important as a puppy but good as they get older too.

I think the most easiest thing you can when you first get a pup home is to simply just sit in front of the house and watch what's going on... they are going to be living there, so they have to get use of the sound, smell, people, activities that's going around them.

Another is to have a small party at home too when pup is a bit older.. so they get to meet different people and a few kids, maybe a few calm and well behaved dogs.

Small play dates with other kind of dogs (who are calm and well behaved dog) is a really good thing too.

[Guest english.ivy]

The only thing I regret with my Pointer pup is not introducing him to children. I never went anywhere that had kids and with my interpersonal issues, I never approached people to ask them to allow their kids to play with my puppy.

So now I have to find children for him to realise they aren't going to harm him.

Truthfully I didn't think he'd grow up and be scared of kids but he is. My Belgian adores children but her breeder has children.

Be careful with this. A fear based reaction could see a child in danger - hasten slowly. I'd be working on having him in the proximity of children before any greetings. Start with older children and work down from there. Muzzle if required for total safety.

You're not alone. I know of a few dogs who missed out on this experience and are frightened of kids as a result. In at least one case, that manifests as fear aggression.

Again, its my dog club/dog show network that provides dog savvy kids for puppy socialisation. I don't have kids but I want dogs that are tolerant of them.

Honestly I don't think you could buy socialisation opportunities as good as a country agricultural/dog show.. animals, dogs, kids, rides - you name it, its there. Its a great reason to show pups, even if you don't go on with it.

Will take this on board, thanks

There are some older kids who live across the road so I'm going to ask them to sit down quietly and feed him treats.

So hard when many parents aren't dog savvy and don't like their kids being near a large male dog, who wouldn't hurt a fly but they don't know that!

[poodlefan]

So hard when many parents aren't dog savvy and don't like their kids being near a large male dog, who wouldn't hurt a fly but they don't know that!

I hate to be blunt, but at this stage neither do you. Keep him onlead and get them to toss treats from a distance. Let HIM make the approach, not the kids. I'd only be doing this after he's been down to the playground to sit and watch and isn't reacting to them some distance away.

If possible, I'd be wanting to do any close encounters under the supervision of an experienced professional.

Edited May 4, 2011 by poodlefan

[Guest english.ivy]

Gosh nothing was ever said about him being off lead. We don't do off lead dog parks. Not for that reason but because there are other dogs who aren't friendly.

I would never endanger a child

Woo now I made myself look like a bad dog owner, go me!

[W Sibs]

Gosh nothing was ever said about him being off lead. We don't do off lead dog parks. Not for that reason but because there are other dogs who aren't friendly.

I would never endanger a child

Woo now I made myself look like a bad dog owner, go me!

I don't think PF was accusing you of anything. She was just suggesting that you should keep our pup on leash when kids are around that's all and showing you one way of introducing your pup to kids.

Emmy isn't great with kids she doesn't know either.. she great with kids she grew up with though. I usually have her on leash when kids are around and ask the kids if I can bring Emmy over to sniff them to say hi (only if the kids are cool and didn't get excited when they saw her)

[poodlefan]

Gosh nothing was ever said about him being off lead. We don't do off lead dog parks. Not for that reason but because there are other dogs who aren't friendly.

I would never endanger a child

Woo now I made myself look like a bad dog owner, go me!

I simply said you should keep him on lead for initial greetings. They could be in a back yard. I didn't mention dog parks at all.

Its not ideal to have a dog onlead for a range of reasons but it will give you more control. I made no implication about the standard of your dog ownership. You do need to be cognizant however that what you do is not without risk.

Edited May 4, 2011 by poodlefan

[corvus]

What I don't do is EVER put my pups in a situation where the reactions of dogs or people are unknown or where a bad experience is hard to prevent. That rules out public offlead dog parks TOTALLY.

Although PF and I disagree on aspects of socialisation, it is at least on my part very respectfully.

In my mind, I try to be realistic about what my dogs are likely to encounter in their lives and socialise my dogs to those things, places, and situations. I live in suburbia. There are a limited number of places I can take my dogs for an off leash run. Sooner or later they are going to have to get used to dog park/dog beach madness, dogs that don't know how to talk dog, and dogs that have no idea how to behave. It would be lovely if I could choose to only expose my dogs to other dogs that are polite, considerate, predictable members of the canine population, but it just doesn't work like that. But that doesn't mean I have to avoid all the places I'd like to go with my dogs. My dogs learnt how to deal with the playground bullies, social retards, and all the rest along with the model canine citizens. I consider it an important part of their socialisation because if I want to take them to the river or the beach and have fun with them outside the yard, they WILL meet these types so I may as well make sure they'll be as comfortable as possible with them. I have to say it makes my heart swell with pride when they deftly turn a bully aside, gently coax a timid dog to play, avoid a dog that starts fights, and defuse tense situations with an easy "I'm no threat" signal. They are nearly always comfortable and confident no matter what is going on around them. I can take them anywhere and even if it's packed with dogs they are completely fine.

Having said that, it didn't just happen. I took a lot of care to gently introduce them as puppies and have always closely monitored their behaviour so I could move them before they got overly anxious or otherwise distressed. I do a lot of training with them when they are off leash in dog parks, and they didn't earn the right to make their own decisions about dogs until they got better than me at reading them. I ever so carefully let them make mistakes when I believed they were safe mistakes and guided them towards better decisions and rewarded them whenever they chose non-aggressive coping strategies. Well, I did with Erik. Kivi hasn't realised there are aggressive coping strategies yet. I listened to them and never forced them into interactions and got them out when they were saying they wanted to quit but the other dog wasn't paying attention.

I see puppies in dog parks and routinely cringe about it because they are kind of tossed in on a Saturday afternoon and the owners are so dismayed that the puppy is screaming and trying to run away that they never go back again. I figure, if you want to use dog parks, there's no real reason why you shouldn't, but there are some good rules of thumb to follow. I don't want to hijack PF's thread, and she'll probably disagree with some of my rules! Suffice to say dog parks are dynamic places and every situation is different. If you are not confident reading the situations you will probably not enjoy being there.

[JoeK]

I am not liking this puppy classes and my opinion is in the real world is achieving more problem than fixing. Is fun maybe for puppy owner with the cute pups around but what I see on the puppy class is exctracting of trait in the dominant pup to causing submission in the less dominant and causing foundation for fear reaction or conditioning dominant pup to act in social aggression towards other dogs as he growing up. Is also causing dogs to having value for other dogs is what makes training more difficult along the pathway for handler focus in the distraction of other dogs.

In the neutral socialise, what happens is dog has no value for dogs or other people, so seeing a dog or other person on the walking, the dog doesnt care is not interested and the dog or persons is as exciting on the dog as a passive object. When the trained in neutralising, you can take him through crowd of people, expose him to plenty dogs, his focusing on the handler is the same as if he in the backyard with no one around, doesnt matter what is around, the dog primary for the handler and surroundings dont matter.

Joe

[poodlefan]

What I don't do is EVER put my pups in a situation where the reactions of dogs or people are unknown or where a bad experience is hard to prevent. That rules out public offlead dog parks TOTALLY.

Although PF and I disagree on aspects of socialisation, it is at least on my part very respectfully. ..

I see puppies in dog parks and routinely cringe about it because they are kind of tossed in on a Saturday afternoon and the owners are so dismayed that the puppy is screaming and trying to run away that they never go back again. I figure, if you want to use dog parks, there's no real reason why you shouldn't, but there are some good rules of thumb to follow. I don't want to hijack PF's thread, and she'll probably disagree with some of my rules! Suffice to say dog parks are dynamic places and every situation is different. If you are not confident reading the situations you will probably not enjoy being there.

Show me two trainers and I'll show you a debate.

I'd argue that dog parks are places for dogs who already have social skills, not for pups to learn them. There are better methods IMO of equipping a dog to deal with aggression and rudeness from other dogs than by exposing them to that as pups. It goes wrong in way too many cases for my liking.

But vive la difference.

Edited May 4, 2011 by poodlefan

[Guest Panzer Attack!]

When I socialise my babies, I do a range of things:

1. Take them to an effectively run puppy pre-school that provides for controlled interactions with other pups in a safe, sterile environment.

2. Take them to friend's homes and introduce them to new people and safe dogs I know will give positive experiences

3. Once fully vaccinated, take them out and about, sometimes on their own and sometimes with other dogs for as many different experiences as I can get. That includes meeting kids, cats, and as many people as possible.

4. Continue an ongoing process of controlled introductions and play with other dogs to equip them with canine social skills. That always includes training at my dog club.

What I don't do is EVER put my pups in a situation where the reactions of dogs or people are unknown or where a bad experience is hard to prevent. That rules out public offlead dog parks TOTALLY.

Thanks so much for this info I think a lot of first time puppy owners don't realise just how much work is involved and how daunting information overload can be. I've had two dogs before, both adult rescues, one with issues, and NOTHING prepared me for the puppy enslaught. I was in a lucky situation with Poots, as I groom at a busy salon, and had people that I KNEW were going to be wonderful with little pups, and dogs that I knew would not react badly to him.

What a timid dog/pup needs to build confidence at first is not a "friendly dog" but an INDIFFERENT dog. Not one that's going to rush up, bowl it over or pounce on it but one that will go "a puppy? Great - now what else is happening". A dog that will give distance but not react aversively to attempts to initiate contact/play is the best confidence builder you can get. Add to that the importance of building a bond of trust and confidence in the handler. A handler that has built that will give confidence to a dog in new and unusual situations. This is why I always recommend a program of formal training for new dog owners - not just for the skills and manners taught but for the process of creating a bond between dog and handler.

When you're socialising a pup you want the biggest range of ages, sizes and breeds you can get for your dog to safely meet (one reason I don't favour breed based dog club training) and you want to do it not just for a baby puppy but for adolescent dogs also. Small dogs NEED to meet larger dogs that will behave appropriately and large pups NEED to meet small dogs so they know they aren't prey and they aren't squeaky toys either.

Socialisation starts the day you bring your puppy home and needs to be ongoing for months. I'd not consider a dog to be fully socialised until its fully mature. Puppies get a license from adult dogs that will expire and they need to learn in a safe environment about how to behave around adults, not just other youngsters.

Appropriate discipline for rude behaviour is a great way for pups to learn this. And the best teachers are other dogs, vetted for the appropriateness and predictibility of their reaction to pups. Allowing your dog or pup to be bullied or harassed by others is not effective socialisation.

What advice would you give for a dog that is too gutsy for his own good? Scooter has not shown much, if any, fear, he was the bully in puppy class, he kind of ignores dogs that growl at him or sees it as a game (and was just playing it with Barkly, run up until B growled, run away, comes back etc etc times a million until B loses his shit and Scooter has to be crated), and he HUMPS. EVERY. OTHER. DOG. He's so small I'm terrified he's going to get beaten down and seriously hurt. I love that he is brave, and to the best of my knowledge have not encouraged this behaviour. I am more than happy for dogs to tell him off, but when they do it sort of encourages him? I've never seen anything like it, lol. I think because he's so small people let him get away with a lot and maybe that's encouraging him...?

He's met at least 100 people, adults, children, men, women, a couple of babies, different ethnicities and all age groups. He's met maybe 20 different dogs, ranging in sizes from Chihuahua to Chow and GSD. Older and younger dogs, and has been told off by pups the same age as him, 3yo male, 7yo male etc. I don't know what I'm doing wrong!

[Vickie]

I'm more along the lines of what JoeK has said. I don't do puppy classes & see more negatives than positives in them.

I don't actively socialize my dogs either. They tend to go lots of places with me but I have no program for socialization.

They see lots of dogs at training & trials but rarely play with them as they are focussed on me. If we go to an area where dogs are playing, they don't join in unless there is a toy involved & even then they are not playing with the dogs, they are bringing the toy to me.

They do play sometimes at home with each other, but generally if I am in the picture their attention will shift to me.

We have many many dogs come onto our property. Despite their lack of Formal socialization, we never have issues.

The only thing that comes close to being an issue is if a rude dog tries to interfere with them during training. I consider that my job to avoid these situations.

I have children & lots of people come & go here, so that's kind of taken care of. They are also around horses & cows (and of course sheep) so we have no responses there (except for the sheep ) . I'm sure if they saw an elephant it'd freak them out luckily that's not likely!

Trim did not like the rides at the Easter Show AT ALL, but...once she saw the first jump, she ran well & forgot about them till the run was over. Honestly, so long as they do what I am asking them with enthusiasm, their responses to strange things don't concern me too much. If they were unwilling to work or train, I would address any issues.

Edited May 4, 2011 by Vickie

[JoeK]

I'm more along the lines of what JoeK has said. I don't do puppy classes & see more negatives than positives in them.

I don't actively socialize my dogs either. They tend to go lots of places with me but I have no program for socialization.

They see lots of dogs at training & trials but rarely play with them as they are focussed on me. If we go to an area where dogs are playing, they don't join in unless there is a toy involved & even then they are not playing with the dogs, they are bringing the toy to me.

They do play sometimes at home with each other, but generally if I am in the picture their attention will shift to me.

We have many many dogs come onto our property. Despite their lack of socialization, we never have issues.

The only thing that comes close to being an issue is if a rude dog tries to interfere with them during training. I consider that my job to avoid these situations.

Yes, this common practice for the sporting and working dogs raising a dog for a function because its making training have less obstical to working around. Is hard enough to train for function and when the dog is not focused and acting stupid because he sees another dog, is making training harder. So neutral dog is far better and less time wasting on stupid behavior and more time for the proper training.

Joe

Joe

[wuffles]

I understand the concept of neutralisation and why people do it, but I don't think it's for everyone. It's not really for me at this point in time. Sure, I want to compete in dog sports, but to be honest, I don't want my dogs focussed on me ALL the time. I want them to enjoy playing with other dogs. I want them to be friendly with strangers rather than indifferent. I enjoy this part of dog ownership.

I am just one person and I am just starting out in the dog world, but that's my opinion for the moment

[Henrietta]

I massively failed in socialising my girl. Yes, we went to puppy school and yes we went to training, but at the time I didn't have the number of dog savvy friends with dogs like PF is describing, that I do now. The puppy school and training school we went to did not help in this area. I had a dog that was fearful, but I was constantly being told that she would grow out of it. And it felt like this happened 'suddenly' when in reality it didn't, I just missed/misread the signs.

Ultimately, it was my fault for not going with my own gut instinct.

My personal bit of advice is that if you have any concern about your new dog/pup and you are worried - seek good quality help. There are many great dog clubs that can help, but even if it means a behaviourist that comes with good recommendations. It may seem like overkill, but if you are not comfortable and confident in what you are doing, please just ask for help. Even if your fears end up being unfounded. It not worth it to overlook a potential problem, try and pretend it's not there or take advice that you feel is not quite right. It may lead to much heartache for owners, not to mention the effect on the dog.

Socialisation before and after my dogs come home to me is not something I will ever take for granted again.

Edit to add something

Edited May 4, 2011 by Henrietta

[corvus]

I massively failed in socialising my girl. Yes, we went to puppy school and yes we went to training, but at the time I didn't have the number of dog savvy friends with dogs like PF is describing, that I do now. The puppy school and training school we went to did not help in this area. I had a dog that was fearful, but I was constantly being told that she would grow out of it. And it felt like this happened 'suddenly' when in reality it didn't, I just missed/misread the signs.

The same thing happened to my mum.