Finding The Off Switch

[Curly Girl]

Hi,

I hope that one of you may be able to suggest how I can teach my 1 year old Airedale to relax around other dogs. He is not aggressive or frightened, he just wants to play all the time, with everyone, anywhere, on lead, off lead, at training, or just walking down the street.

He really chills iwhen we get home from his morning or evening run or in the evening when we are watching TV. Then he just stretches out and goes straight to sleep. But when we go to dog training, with other dogs he barks, sniffs, scans the crowd. Basically he does just about anything rather than pay attention to me.

I have worked on watch me, a relaxation protocol, Look at that. But doesn't seem to help.

BTW he is very smart, and when he does focus he is great. I love him and I want to help him relax and enjoy a being out and about a bit more.

He gets a fair bit of exercise - a 4km run in the morning, and another 2km walk in the evening, plus we do 2 or 3 x 5 minute training sessions after each outing. We go to the off lead dog park 2 times a week, plus dog club.

I would appreciate any suggestions as I am not very experienced and he is my first Airedale.

Regards

CG

[corvus]

Have you tried the off switch game? Here's an example of it that also shows breathing. There's been some talk on the CU list lately about cueing a dog to take a deep breath and this video came up to show what was meant.

[Aidan3]

Hi CG, sometimes with dogs like this we just have to work a little bit harder on the boundaries. It's not an unusual problem and it can be a bit tricky to deal with, more because it's a little exasperating for the owner than anything else.

I don't let dogs like this stand around doing nothing. If they are allowed to stand there, all of a sudden they are at the end of the leash, or barking, or whatever takes their fancy. So always give them something to do and always pay attention, if they are sitting there quietly, reward it. If you are walking and they aren't paying attention, change direction before it becomes a problem. No need for a big correction, just a gentle tug, release and keep walking in the direction you have chosen.

Class is paying attention to you time, not socialising time. If socialisation is allowed, be really specific and obvious about it, have it on cue.

[poodlefan]

I think you need to rethink the issue.

Sounds to me like your dog needs to learn to focus on you and have some self control.

You don't want him to switch off to other dogs.. rather you want him to switch on to YOU!

Have any of the dog club instructors offered suggestions?

[wuffles]

I have also found it useful for my busybody dog to spend time with older, well-adjusted and calm dogs who basically ignore her (and let her know when her behaviour is inappropriate).

[poodlefan]

I have said it before but I am finding that an emerging theme of dogs with little self control around others seems to come from those who go to offlead dog parks regularly.

CG, what do you do when you go to the dog park.. just turn him loose and let him do what he wants or require him to 'check in' with you regularly?

He sounds like a dog that sees other dogs as high value and you as being less so. This is something that training can address.

The Triangle of Temptation (pinned at the top of the training forum) would be a very good place to start working on improving your value to him.

[Curly Girl]

Hi Poodle fan,

Thanks for that insight.

When I go to the dog park, he is less busy than when we are on the lead at training. He regularly checks in with me (has to sit, wait, gets a treat and then is told to go play again). He comes when he is directed eg, this way, to me, leave it. He walks quite happily on a loose leash and when we go home he comes happily. We walk a circuit and I watch him like I would a child at a park. I let him do his thing, but we have rules - so if he is too rough or getting over the top I go and get him, make him sit and wait before he is allowed to play goes again. Can you suggest what else I could do, or is there something obvious I am doing wrong? We go to the dog park so he gets to play with other dogs as we only have him.

When we get to training, and everyone is on a leash and we stand around a bit that is when he really goes off. He yodels, he barks, he play bows, he prances on the end of his lead. I went to a training session in a scout hall and he just went silly trying to play with the other dogs. He is not as bad out doors at dog club, but he can't seem to concentrate of control himself for long. He forgets a lot of what we can do in a calmer frame of mind, and goes off with the pixies.

I have bought a book called Control Unleashed which is designed to help dogs with impulse and self control issues. I have joined their list and I have seen the breathing video that Corvus mentioned. I can't get him to do a lot of the stuff yet( but we are working on it), and some of it I don't understand - for example could someone please explain what box work is?

We have done the triangle of temptation, but as yet we haven't got to the bit where I can go inside. he will stay and look from the food to me and wait till I tell him free.

Sorry this is so long, and thank you for your suggestions.

Regards

CG

Edited May 3, 2011 by Curly Girl

[corvus]

When we get to training, and everyone is on a leash and we stand around a bit that is when he really goes off. He yodels, he barks, he play bows, he prances on the end of his lead. I went to a training session in a scout hall and he just went silly trying to play with the other dogs. He is not as bad out doors at dog club, but he can't seem to concentrate of control himself for long. He forgets a lot of what we can do in a calmer frame of mind, and goes off with the pixies.

Hm, that sounds kinda familiar. When I first started agility with Erik, classes consisted of me constantly giving him things to do. The moment I stopped he would start barking hysterically at the other dogs doing fun stuff. It was exhausting trying to keep up with him for an hour, but with lots of down-stays between exercises with near constant rewards, he slowly made progress and I was able to lower the reward rate a bit. It helped that he also matured a little. I have quiet training things to do with him when he needs some direction but also needs to calm down some. I get him in a down and sit on the ground with him and we do targeting, paw tricks, husbandry behaviours, LAT, work on some simple discrimination training, like left and right or something like that. I've found sometimes I need to change what we're doing frequently to keep his attention, but once he settles down a bit, this kind of thing gets him in the zone and he is very focused and eager to learn new things. Like Aidan said, we don't really just leave him to do what he likes. We give him lots of direction and make sure he's always got a task to focus on.

[Aidan3]

When we get to training, and everyone is on a leash and we stand around a bit that is when he really goes off.

I'd keep moving, or keep him occupied. There is an old article by Bob Bailey somewhere that discusses this, Bob suggests putting the dogs away when they aren't working and that's what I do in my classes. The dogs are either working or in the car.

As they mature and learn the norms of going to class, they are then able to stand around a bit more doing "nothing". It takes a bit of time though.

[JoeK]

I have said it before but I am finding that an emerging theme of dogs with little self control around others seems to come from those who go to offlead dog parks regularly.

CG, what do you do when you go to the dog park.. just turn him loose and let him do what he wants or require him to 'check in' with you regularly?

He sounds like a dog that sees other dogs as high value and you as being less so. This is something that training can address.

The Triangle of Temptation (pinned at the top of the training forum) would be a very good place to start working on improving your value to him.

Yes, this is true. If you wanting a dog to ignor other dogs, you dont socialise them with other dogs other than letting your dog see them no playing. Same for the people, if wanting dog not to find value in other people, dont letting people pat your dog or play with them is how is working

Joe

[JoeK]

When we get to training, and everyone is on a leash and we stand around a bit that is when he really goes off.

I'd keep moving, or keep him occupied. There is an old article by Bob Bailey somewhere that discusses this, Bob suggests putting the dogs away when they aren't working and that's what I do in my classes. The dogs are either working or in the car.

As they mature and learn the norms of going to class, they are then able to stand around a bit more doing "nothing". It takes a bit of time though.

Long as he isnt working Malinois he work in the car on is own on the interior tear up the seats!

Joe

[Vickie]

I have said it before but I am finding that an emerging theme of dogs with little self control around others seems to come from those who go to offlead dog parks regularly.

agreed. And really if you haven't built an extremely strong reward history for training (harder in some breeds than others), who can blame the dogs? They just want to do what they are used to doing in an open space with other dogs around.

Some of the most distracted dogs in agility seem also to be the ones who have playtime before and/or after training.

[poodlefan]

I have said it before but I am finding that an emerging theme of dogs with little self control around others seems to come from those who go to offlead dog parks regularly.

agreed. And really if you haven't built an extremely strong reward history for training (harder in some breeds than others), who can blame the dogs? They just want to do what they are used to doing in an open space with other dogs around.

Some of the most distracted dogs in agility seem also to be the ones who have playtime before and/or after training.

I advise against play time before training for some dogs but I sure do recommend individual play between handler and dog DURING it!! If you raise a dog's adrenalin levels too high with stimulating play with other dogs beforehand, its hardly to be unexpected if the dog has trouble focussing.

The thing about offlead dog parks is they build a lot of value for dogs/play for some individual dogs. That play is often dog initiated and completely without handler direction/intervention. The message becomes "other dogs equals super exciting things I can do when I please" to some dogs. When handlers release dogs, stand in a group until the dogs have had enough and then leave, that message is very strong. I've had one Kelpie in class that simply never took its eyes off the other dogs and took any chance to run with one it could get. It does seem to be "only" dogs that get the most hyped up IMO.

Sounds like the OP is doing all the right things at the dog park.. but raise those excitement levels for play with other dogs and it can become challenging to control them in other situations. You can teach a dog to chill out around other dogs but consistent reinforcing of the value of other dogs via free play in a very stimulating environment doesn't help.

Edited May 3, 2011 by poodlefan

[Agility Dogs]

x3

We don't advise play at training at all. In fact we have banned it after training - just a recipe for disaster with all the different breeds and play styles that we have at our club. Add that to the people trying to get in and out with multiple dogs and crates etc and you have a lot of potential for problems.

Personally I don't like dog parks, but that is a lot to do with my dogs and the way they view the world. That said I would advise anyone who wants their dog to work at training ot avoid them AT LEAST until they have their dog's training to a level where they are the focus of the dog's attention under most circumstances.

We have a lady at our club with a schnauzer. Both dog and lady LOVED the dog park, but the owner was getting increasingly frustrated at the dog's continued attempts to initiate play at training. She decided agility was more important to her than the dog park and guess what.......dog is now much better.

OP does sound like she is doing all the right things at the park, but as PF said, without the groundwork in place it makes it VERY hard to have a dog that does not want to play with others every time they see them.

[poodlefan]

x3

We don't advise play at training at all.

Are you just talking about play between dogs or play with handlers as well.

[wuffles]

My dog gets to play after training and sometimes before but I actually think that has helped her learn when she needs to focus... she gets a quick run around/play then is called back for training, or sometimes she is crated while I help teach a class. She understands that play time is play time and work time is work time. If I go to the local oval to train and there are other dogs there, I usually let her have a quick play before calling her back and doing our training.

She does have a high value for other dogs but as she's gotten older she has calmed down a lot and learned that she cannot play with everyone she sees. Then again, we have spent a LOT of time building our bond and focus, and I don't mind if I look like an idiot in the process of making myself interesting and fun to my dog

She is 17 months old now, I am doing beginner's agility and she works off leash for most of our class (with at least 10 other dogs) without any problems.

[Agility Dogs]

x3

We don't advise play at training at all.

Are you just talking about play between dogs or play with handlers as well.

OMG, WITH DOGS.

We TOTALLY encourage play with handlers all the time. The biggest thing we are working through is getting people to constantly interact with their dogs and not bounce off the end of the lead 'chasing' other dogs. (FOCUS)

Even if someone is talking to an instructor we encourage them to be constantly patting their dog or at least have hold if it so it isn't wandering around making its own decisions.

[Agility Dogs]

My dog gets to play after training and sometimes before but I actually think that has helped her learn when she needs to focus... she gets a quick run around/play then is called back for training, or sometimes she is crated while I help teach a class.

From this I'm guessing you've trained a lot of dogs or put a lot of time into your dogs over a relatively short period and understand the value of a good recall and your relationship with your dog.

In that case I don't see a massive problem. It's more dogs that constantly go and visit other dogs during class and run off from their handlers to more exciting things that are an issue.

[poodlefan]

x3

We don't advise play at training at all.

Are you just talking about play between dogs or play with handlers as well.

OMG, WITH DOGS.

We TOTALLY encourage play with handlers all the time. The biggest thing we are working through is getting people to constantly interact with their dogs and not bounce off the end of the lead 'chasing' other dogs. (FOCUS)

Even if someone is talking to an instructor we encourage them to be constantly patting their dog or at least have hold if it so it isn't wandering around making its own decisions.

Thought that would be the case... and I agree. I also discourage handlers from allowing their dogs to play while in class. And for dogs that are starting to lose focus or have done something special, I encourage handlers to leave the class for 5 minutes of play with their dogs.

[wuffles]

My dog gets to play after training and sometimes before but I actually think that has helped her learn when she needs to focus... she gets a quick run around/play then is called back for training, or sometimes she is crated while I help teach a class.

From this I'm guessing you've trained a lot of dogs or put a lot of time into your dogs over a relatively short period and understand the value of a good recall and your relationship with your dog.

In that case I don't see a massive problem. It's more dogs that constantly go and visit other dogs during class and run off from their handlers to more exciting things that are an issue.

Fair enough. My girl was an extremely full on puppy and had lots of value for, well, everything OMG A BIRD! OMG A DOG! OMG A LEAF! OMG GRASS! OMG SPECK OF DUST! OMG HUMAN! etc. Thankfully she also has lots of value for me, so I just had to make sure that it was more rewarding for her to stay with me than make her own fun.

Some games I play with my dog which IMO make staying with me the best option... chasing food games, catching food, nose touches, fun tricks (she likes spin, roll over), running-away/catch-up games. I think that some people focus a lot of getting their dogs to calm down but I have found the calmness part came naturally after the bond was built and association made that handler = best place to be. I also trained a fairly strong "leave it" command which was rewarded highly (often jackpots or exciting play) and has definitely served me well!