When To Desex?

[Lambo]

Remember you can always rebook a surgery but you cant put testicles back in

That's what I'm thinking, and I'm sure my pup would appreciate the concern more as a forethought and an afterthought.

The more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to wait. I actually rang the vet this morning to cancel but eventually decided to sound out a few more opinions before making a final call on it.

And as I say, he's a fairly timid pup - I don't really see him exhibiting any sort of attitude at the moment. Even little chihuahuas seem to scare him. Whilst I don't want an overly aggressive dog on my hands, I would prefer one that'll at least stand his ground. I'm not sure how I encourage the latter without risking the former.

[Nekhbet]

get yourself involved in a good dog training school to help him as well. He doesnt need to be put under random dogs noses in order to learn to gain confidence, in fact the handler needs to learn the skills to help growing dogs understand the world and how to behave in it. Timidity is not something you want in a dog either, although weims can err on the side of timidity at times.

Socialisation is not simply seeing something. It is the dog experiencing new things while being shown how to respond to them by the handler I would worry about that before ASAP desexing. Personally a really timid dog I would not desex and cause an instant artificial hormone imbalance. There is always a full system adjustment period after a surgery like this. Work on the personality first, then the clackers

Edited May 3, 2011 by Nekhbet

[poodlefan]

And as I say, he's a fairly timid pup - I don't really see him exhibiting any sort of attitude at the moment. Even little chihuahuas seem to scare him. Whilst I don't want an overly aggressive dog on my hands, I would prefer one that'll at least stand his ground. I'm not sure how I encourage the latter without risking the former.

As has been said before, by embarking on a program of CONTROLLED socialisation. I would also recommend formal obedience training.

Build a bond of trust and focus with him and give him controlled opportunities to meet safe and reliable dogs. Best place for that is at a dog club.

Besides, he's a gundog. Give him a job and he'll thrive.

And as for the testosterone related behaviour... if you start to experience it, then you can have him desexed at any time.

[Lambo]

get yourself involved in a good dog training school to help him as well.

What sort of training is called for? I mean, do I look for a general course in "obedience training" or some specialist course designed to produce a guard dog? Any pointers to courses or course providers would be appreciated. I'm in Brisbane; Southside.

[poodlefan]

get yourself involved in a good dog training school to help him as well.

What sort of training is called for? I mean, do I look for a general course in "obedience training" or some specialist course designed to produce a guard dog? Any pointers to courses or course providers would be appreciated. I'm in Brisbane; Southside.

Normal obedience training. If you wanted a guard dog, you've got the wrong breed.

[Lambo]

As has been said before, by embarking on a program of CONTROLLED socialisation. I would also recommend formal obedience training.

Sorry poodlefan, my post must've crossed with yours.

I'm a little new to all this, so I apologise for my ignorance in advance - but what do you mean by controlled socialisation exactly? For instance, on the weekend I introduced my pup to a friend's 2yr old border collie. The older dog was a bit of a bully. He's an entire dog and very friendly both with his owners' own kids and mine. In fact, I'd say he is a very approachable and friendly dog where humans seem to be concerned, but apart from one short period of playfulness with my pup most of the time he had my Weim walking on egg shells. I monitored most of their interactions and intervened where I could - eg yelling at the older dog to "be nice" or telling him off in some other way if he growled at my pup (especially when the young fella was on his back already submitting). But how far do you go? I mean, the little guy's got to learn right? How do you build the puppy's confidence if he's being growled or snapped at all the time?

The fact that the older dog is an entire one is what got me accepting that his aggression was more a testosterone thing rather than a socialisation thing - particularly since he is quite friendly with people.

ETA: No, I wasn't really after a guard dog. I was thinking more along the lines of what type/style of training is required to get him more confident.

Edited May 3, 2011 by Lambo

[IngeK]

(b) it is my obligation as a responsible pet owner to do so, particularly as I have no desire or intention to use him for breeding purposes.

sorry to only pick up point b) but responsible pet ownership has nothing to do with desexing your dog if you ask me. Youre responsible when you just make sure he doesnt do the things people always talk about that entire dogs do. No offense to you personal but I just dont get this whole thing in general. Or maybe it makes me a non resp. pet owner..but one where the dogs never attacked another, escaped or by accident jumped on a bitch

Good you put this post up though and rethink what the vet told you!

[poodlefan]

As has been said before, by embarking on a program of CONTROLLED socialisation. I would also recommend formal obedience training.

Sorry poodlefan, my post must've crossed with yours.

I'm a little new to all this, so I apologise for my ignorance in advance - but what do you mean by controlled socialisation exactly?

Introduction to safe, non-reactive dogs in an environment where you control all the variables. That rules out dog parks and dogs owned by people who can't read or control them.

Desexed males and good natured bitches are probably your safest starting point. Smaller dogs might be best (ie not bigger than your boy) They don't have to put up with bratty behaviour from a pup but their reactiosn should be appropriate.

Your boy's not far off his second fear period. Its a good time to tread carefully, especially if he tends to be timid.

Another option would be to investigate training him in his original dog.. gundog work. Time consuming but a great way to connect with knowledgeable gundog people.

Edited May 3, 2011 by poodlefan

[Staff'n'Toller]

If you want a dog you can take anywhere, most importantly you want a social butterfly that can go to the dog park each day and romp then perhaps you might consider desexing @ 5 months.

you're making a big assumption here too that a dog left after 5 months with it's testicles in is going to pretty much guarentee a dog that you cannot take anywhere.

With respect, I don't think I insinuated they would not be able to take their dog anywhere, or that they are guaranteed to become aggressive. What I wrote was quite balanced.

On the flip side it's irresponsible for posters to jump on here and say to a novice owner "Oh, of course leave the testicles! Your dog will be fine" and then neglect to warn about testosterone related behaviours.

I see more entire male dogs that can't mix with the average dog community in an off lead capacity than entire males that can. If that is the OP's main focus (because for your average Joe Citizen it is) then yes I believe they definitely are better off having the dog neutered.

Edited May 3, 2011 by Staff'n'Toller

[JoeK]

Most of this testosterone scare of the bad behavior is bull, is old wifes tale for the most and way out beyond the proportion. Sure the male might sniffing more to cock his leg on the walking, but he shouldnt be allowed to sniff and cocking on the walk unless you tell him he can. This is training problem not becuase his clackers are still on. I can picking form the country kilometer a male Shepherd Dog desexing too early his fat in the chest, more deepness with a skinny leg is looking stupid, after 18 months on the Shepherd Dog is no worries, but if hes good dog and the good training, his clackers leave them on, making no difference.

But if he is timid dog like on the posting here, I leave them on, if is timid taking off his clacker too early can cause him scaredy cat behavior is painful when the dog is scared of everything and backing out the collar, he scared of dogs, cars in the trafffic is no good, better if he want to bite someone to fixing that than scaredy cat, so my opinion on the posting for this pup is leave him on for I preference 18 months on the big dog but 6 months is bull.

Joe

[JoeK]

If you want a dog you can take anywhere, most importantly you want a social butterfly that can go to the dog park each day and romp then perhaps you might consider desexing @ 5 months.

you're making a big assumption here too that a dog left after 5 months with it's testicles in is going to pretty much guarentee a dog that you cannot take anywhere. Training and socialisation as well as genetic temperament are going to have a bigger impact in the long run. Desexing wont stop him bowling the kids over, pinching their toys or pulling their pants but training will. You also need to socialise him properly as that again will have a bigger impact on his long term behaviour, testosterone or not.

I would be listening to your breeder before your vet. As for 'male behaviours' I have a pair of bitches that scratch grass, cock their leg, will hump other dogs and act like dominant cows if allowed ... obviously not an over testosterone problem Cancer risk, your vet probably meant prostate not testicular cancer.

If you want the dog desexed to prevent accidents or in the case a neighbour around you decides keeping an entire bitch in their backyard (in which case you will be privy to all manner of carrying on from an entire dog) then go for it, but I would follow your breeders advice at the least. Personally I would wait until 12 months and over.

As for entire dogs and kids not working together ...

and I dont have kids of my own at all

Is fine gentleman the big Dougie, very nice, I like him!

Joe

[AussieDog]

My male Lab X was desexed at four/five months. He turned out fine.

[SparkyTansy]

PF as always, makes good points here.

Lambo when you got your pup were you aware that Weimaraners need consistent training and consistent leadership? There is a very fine line between a nervy weimaraner, a balanced, relaxed weimaraner and an overconfident, pushy Weimaraner.

Start by doing some research on finding a good obedience club, research fear periods, and socialise your pup (as poodlefan said, in a controlled environment with calm, gentle dogs). Do not introduce your pup to dogs that are not calm and social with other dogs.

Given your weim is already a little nervy i would avoid desexing for now. you also need to be aware that without training and socialising properly now, your dog may end up with fear aggression later, and this will not be fixed by removing his testicles.

[persephone]

lambo.. your pup's personality/attitude will be greatly influenced by his upbringing,and in particular the dogs he meets as a baby.Pups DO submit, it helps save their life when an adult is not happy.

The temperament of his parents is, of course very important !Were they happy and confident ?

Pups need to play with other pups/safe dogs, to learn the skills needed to interact with dogs/experience different dog body language and behaviours .

THIS is what will help build confidence- or if it is a lot of bad experiences, this is what will do the opposite.

Whether a pup has testicles or not - careful socialising is very important.

I'm not sure if you want a pup who will 'stand his ground' . all the time .. sometimes that is not a polite or healthy behaviour You ideally want a dog who will RESPOND to your direction , who will RESPECT you, and dogs who it meets .Your dog should be able to interpret what the other dog is 'saying', and REACT appropriately - whether that means to submit , to walk away, to engage in play, or to be neutral.

We can not tell a dog how to respond to dog body language ..but we can oversee and help control situations.

[poodlefan]

One further point:

Upon hearing that a dog is a bit timid, some folks will say "he needs to meet Rover, Rover LOVES other dogs". Interpet this to mean that Rover is possibly extremely exhuberant with other dogs and doesn't read them all that well.

What a timid dog/pup needs to build confidence at first is not a "friendly dog" but an INDIFFERENT dog. Not one that's going to rush up, bowl it over or pounce on it but one that will go "a puppy? Great - now what else is happening". A dog that will give distance but not react aversively to attempts to initiate contact/play is the best confidence builder you can get. Add to that the importance of building a bond of trust and confidence in the handler. A handler that has built that will give confidence to a dog in new and unusual situations. This is why I always recommend a program of formal training for new dog owners - not just for the skills and manners taught but for the process of creating a bond between dog and handler.

I hope you find some non-reactive dogs Lambo - and your local dog club is the place to look. I know plenty of folk who've volunteered non-reactive dogs to help socialise pups, yours truely included.

Below is a pic of controlled puppy socialisation in action - the moment my friend's working ESS puppy saw her first poodle - check out the look of uncertainty on the pup's face. (Lets call this the "WTF moment" at which point the experience can go either way) She was really quite worried. Big Ted really wasn't at all interested. He was headed for the treats. Nothing bad happened and the pup gained confidence as a result. ETA: This wasn't a timid pup by the way - just a baby experiencing dogs unlike herself for the first time. After a few minutes she was completely relaxed.

Edited May 4, 2011 by poodlefan

[persephone]

Rover LOVES other dogs

yes That is always a scary comment!

[poodlefan]

Rover LOVES other dogs

yes That is always a scary comment!

Howard my Whippet is like this... not the first dog you want a timid dog to meet although he is pretty good at reading dogs and adapting his behaviour to suit them. He tends to have a calming influence on uncertain dogs and his breeder says his mother is the same.

Sadly, Ted is too old to train baby puppies in the niceties of dog interaction anymore. He's helped his share of big babies learn not to jump on little dogs but he's in retirement from socialisation duties now.

FHRP's Flynn was always "first big dog" for my pups for the same reasons - indifferent, predictable in terms of appropriate reactions. Such dogs are worth their weight in gold.

Edited May 4, 2011 by poodlefan

[WreckitWhippet]

Another idea for controlled socialisation, is to head off for a walk with a known dog ( known to you but no your dog ) that is indifferent, as PF has talked about above.

I've used her dogs as well, for my boy who needed some time with dogs that didn't want to play and didn't really give a crap. We went for a nice relaxed walk on loose leads, seperate at first and then closer together to allow them to sniff and check each other out on the move.

It doesn't have to be a walk for hours, we took the opportunity at a show and it was 5 minutes for a toilet and crate break.

My Whippet is ideal for introducing pups and dogs with confidence issues too. She's the queen of I don't give a toss. Sadly my old SBT has gone, he was a wonderful, tolerant dog.

[poodlefan]

Another idea for controlled socialisation, is to head off for a walk with a known dog ( known to you but no your dog ) that is indifferent, as PF has talked about above.

I've used her dogs as well, for my boy who needed some time with dogs that didn't want to play and didn't really give a crap. We went for a nice relaxed walk on loose leads, seperate at first and then closer together to allow them to sniff and check each other out on the move.

It doesn't have to be a walk for hours, we took the opportunity at a show and it was 5 minutes for a toilet and crate break.

My Whippet is ideal for introducing pups and dogs with confidence issues too. She's the queen of I don't give a toss. Sadly my old SBT has gone, he was a wonderful, tolerant dog.

Agree totally. Time spent walking with calm dogs is great.

Just stay the hell out of the public dog parks Lambo - can't think of a faster method of pushing a timid dog over into fear aggression.

[lovemesideways]

Rover LOVES other dogs

yes That is always a scary comment!

Heeey my dogs name IS Rover, and he does love other dogs!