Prong Collars

[corvus]

NOW you're saying you made a "general" comment - yet you aligned that comment with some fairly specific things.

I am responding to what you wrote.

Oh geez, you caught me. I was really trying to undermine everything that has ever been said by you in particular. :p

I was just picking out a few examples. If there is conflicting information from various experts, then it's hearsay to me until someone can produce something that is more concrete than "I saw it myself" or "I have tried it and it worked", and that goes for both sides. Sorry, nothing personal. The folks on the other side of the argument don't seem to mind, so I don't see why you should.

[Erny]

So, when I say I have seen head collar injury, you reject that because you can't believe it on my own say so and insist it is hearsay? You need me to post the photo's? It is hearsay until Corvus is convinced? This does go back to my comment about having experience though. You obviously haven't.

It's not about catching you Corvus. It's not about you at all (is that a surprise?). Why do you suggest that I think you are trying to undermine me? You really do have a habit of twisting things by adding in silly comments in your post such as those.

Edited May 14, 2011 by Erny

[best4koda]

I am currently using a prong collar for my young GSD. She is a high drive dog. Check chain just wasn't working. Constant checking, you could not get her to walk with relaxed lead at all. Head collar made it a bit better but she just learnt to lean into it. Our previous 2 GSD's were able to be taught against pulling with the head collar but not this one. With the check chain she was simply choking herself all the time. If continued I'm sure she would suffer ill effects. A friend who is a trainer tried all different collars on her and got similar results. Then suggested if I wanted to try a prong collar. I said show me as I had no opinion or knowledge of them. In minutes I had at the very least a dog who knew there was a boundary to her pulling with out being checked by the trainer. I am currently training her in a fairly controlled environment at a park that allows enough distractions for her to learn to do as she is asked but not too much until her behaviour is controlled. I am impressed with the results so far. In my opinion (and only relative to my dog)the prong collar works for her as she needs very little correction in comparison and there fore is a better solution. If used correctly I will not cause harm. End result is a dog under control enjoying being taken out and about. But it's horses for courses, this time around its a prong collar, the previous 2 times it was a halty.

[Skye GSD]

Thank goodness some of us are prepared to try other methods when the current one does not work.

I had successfully trained my other GSD's with the check chain and they were top dogs. This little pocket rocket that I have just would not "get it" with any method up until now and we moved progressively up the ranks of tools.

I had always thought of the prong collar as a last resort, little knowing that I was going to get there with this girl.

The corrections are no where near as harsh as a check chain and most are self-corrections by the dog - they soon learn to accept the boundaries. I would never endorse the prong collar, or check chain for that matter, for all training but in certain cases they are a very successful tool and I can certainly vouch for that.

best4koda - sounds like you and I have twins!!!

[best4koda]

Hi Sky, yes it does (twins). My friend laughs at Koda and describes her as high maintenance chic!...Hyperactive I must say. She would have made a fabulous sled dog I reckon. I thought my over sized dominate male was difficult but he was never pushing it like this one. I have come to conclusion that dogs are like kids, each has to be dealt with individually and the same training practises do not suit all. Love the GSD can't help but keep going back to them.

[aussielover]

Incidentally, there have been a few papers come out that looked at how different personality types learn operative tasks. (Over-)Reactivity is yet to be classified as a personality trait on its own, and the relationships between stress reactivity and personality are not well understood as far as I've been able to make out. Anyway, the results were a good deal more subtle than how much of an aversive/reward are required. Long extinction curves (persistence) and impulsivity seems to be where it's at. Definitely something that should be considered in training, but not something that can yet be related to stress reactivity.

HI Corvus,

These studies are in dogs I am assuming?

Could you PM the references for these (or links if you have them?)

I love reading these sort of studies- I am such a geek

[JoeK]

There is an awful lot of hearsay in the dog world.

Perhaps hearsay to those who don't have the experience of them.

So, what, it's okay to just make up facts if you have experience in the matter? Are those with experience exempt from providing sound reasoning that holds up to critical scrutiny? That is exactly how hearsay comes about. If I had a dollar for every time someone said something that is erroneous about dogs that they had heard from someone more experienced with dogs than they are, then I could fund my own research. You don't need experience in something to recognise hearsay. You just need the ability to type something into Google and start nosing around.

Results speak, Corvus. Whether you and your solid reliance on scientific proof like it or not, results speak. Results are not hearsay. And I said nothing about making up facts so I don't know why you brought that pearl into your post .

There is an awful lot of hearsay in dog training, just saying

I think it was a general comment, people with experience can and do say stuff that later proves to be incorrect. History is full of these examples, it happens in science too.

Yes - it may well have been a general comment. But Corvus almost consistently discounts anything other than what can be written with scientific figures to back it. To deny experience and results and write it off as hearsay is IMO the wrong thing to do.

I keep a picture in my head of the Corvus coming on the field with book trolly like the solicitor have in the city. Corvus, the dog running away hes done the bolt and Corvus looking up book for scientific reason why he run away? I am not having nasty picture just little bit of humor, Corvus having many talent for the theory is good work to appreciate, but sometimes I thiking the leash speaking louder than the book for training the dog.

Joe

Edited May 14, 2011 by JoeK

[Skye GSD]

Yes - it may well have been a general comment. But Corvus almost consistently discounts anything other than what can be written with scientific figures to back it. To deny experience and results and write it off as hearsay is IMO the wrong thing to do.

I keep a picture in my head of the Corvus coming on the field with book trolly like the solicitor have in the city. Corvus, the dog running away hes done the bolt and Corvus looking up book for scientific reason why he run away? I am not having nasty picture just little bit of humor, Corvus having many talent for the theory is good work to appreciate, but sometimes I thiking the leash speaking louder than the book for training the dog.

Joe

what a priceless comment Joe - and I love your humour

Edited May 14, 2011 by Skye GSD

[best4koda]

Yes, very good humour. Can I just say in regards to theory, it's something everyone should read to gain knowledge but sometimes even with the best theory in hand, just sometimes you need to throw the book out the window.....and go with your gut as dogs are like kids, each one has a difference to them.

[BorderBo]

Joe, a little bit of humour is just what this thread needs! No offense, Corvus, but I laughed out loud at that visualization,Joe.

[BorderBo]

Postscript: Thrilled to report a so-far, so-good, happy ending to this thread.

As detailed above, I returned Bo to his foster carer in Albury back in early May - 3 months after originally adopting him. As my posts on DOL no doubt indicated, I was struggling to control him and his reactivity, taking a few nasty falls along the way. I endeavoured back then to take pro-active steps to sort through the issues, working with a couple of trainers along the way and whilst some progress was achieved, one stopped returning my calls after the third home visit and another wished me luck and bowed out, telling me that very few people would have persisted this far with him (the dog, I assumed!). I also sent Bo on a training / boarding program that without doubt proved to be a very worthwhile exercise and I think was another very positive stepping stone along the way – in fact, I am reaping the obedience training benefits of that program today – no doubts about it. I was still struggling, however, with Bo’s extreme reactivity on our own home turf. Walking him became my daily nightmare.

Consequently, I made a frantic call to Steve Courtney from K9 Pro one morning back in early May after I had taken a particularly painful fall and Steve kindly rearranged his appointments so he could see Bo and I that very day. I must have sounded desperate because Steve is booked several months in advance! Unfortunately and with hindsight, I was pretty much against the wall by then – my confidence was close to zero, I was constantly on the verge of tears and I was having anxiety attacks. I think I was hoping that Steve could somehow wave a magic wand that day for I couldn’t even get my head around the program that was developed for us and a couple of days in to it, I threw in the towel. Something I wasn’t particularly proud of and, as it turned out, something I wasn’t able to come to terms with.

I kept in constant contact with Bo’s foster carer over the next couple of months, hoping he would find a suitable home but Bo at his end, was sabotaging every new forever home opportunity that came his way. It wasn’t looking good for him and I certainly wasn’t moving on with life without him either.

After re-connecting with Steve and seeking his advice about giving it another go with Bo with him onboard in a more intensive way, together with his belief that he KNEW he could get Bo and I living and working harmoniously together IF I was 100% committed to the task with NO out clause, I decided to go for it and re-adopt Bo. Along the way, I also made friends with another one of Steve's clients in WA who responded to my post on prongs and who had also been struggling with a very reactive GSD. She shared her tremendous results and ongoing success with Steve's program with me and this was an added incentive to try again with Bo. Thanks HB!

We flew Bo home at the end of June and I was simply astounded at how quickly Bo responded to Steve’s training program – a couple of lessons without me for the first week and then with me for just a couple of weeks after that. I never doubted the end result – I just never anticipated it would or could be achieved quite that quickly.

The dog that used to lurch and lunge and bark and turn somersaults when he saw another dog, the dog that once dragged me across several alfresco café coffee tables in pursuit of another dog and left me with a shoulder injury and a bruise the size of Malaysia is now the dog who walks respectfully and calmly by my side on a two finger “grasp” loose leash. I take him to the local obedience club classes on a Saturday purely for distraction work, not participation (he is wearing a prong collar for the moment!) and I am thrilled to be able to say that he is by far, one of the best behaved dogs there. No corrections needed in this environment either. In fact, Bo rarely needs a correction full stop. We do our own obedience on the sidelines of these classes, walk through and around myriad dogs and handlers and he doesn’t miss a beat. My partner, family, friends and neighbours can’t believe this well-behaved, non-reactive dog is Bo. He has become my dream dog and realistically, it’s still only early days. I am so excited about the future with him and what we will do as a team.

I thought that this really positive outcome might provide some inspiration and reassurance for any other DOL’ers who might be experiencing some of the issues I was having and not managing or floundering.

Since this thread was originally posted about the use and effectiveness of prong collars, I should add that the use of one in Bo’s case has been a very constructive and useful tool at this stage of our training. In comparison to the two head halter options I tried (which visibly distressed Bo - in fact, he never adjusted to wearing one and they had little positive effect in terms of his pulling) as well as a check chain that never stayed in position, required a much stronger correction compared to that of the prong for the same effect and which Bo ducked and weaved to avoid. Not so with the prong. Bo is enthusiastic for his walks and sits calmly and patiently while I am putting his prong on – no mean feat with old fumble fingers here and certainly not the case when it came to head halters and check chains!

A big thank you to Steve at K9 Pro whom I have found ALWAYS goes the extra mile, delivers on promise (LOL!) and importantly, has helped me to understand, harness and constructively deploy the high drive that Bo has. It seems somewhat ironic that the drive that I once found exhausting, intimidating and was somewhat in fear of, is now something that I actively encourage and help him satisfy in ways that we both love, have enormous fun with and which has only strengthened our bond. I’ve also made some lovely friendships within the K9 Pro community who have helped and supported Bo and I enormously along the way. Thank you!

[ravenau1]

What a fantastic outcome

Seems you and Bo were meant to be together

[OSoSwift]

Brilliant just brilliant. I remember reading your other posts with saddness. Great to hear.

[Red Fox]

Great news BorderBo!! Thank you for updating.

[Tilly]

That is a very wondeful outcome for you both.

[trinabean]

BorderBo, thank you for posting and sharing your story. I found it encouraging. Good on you for persisting with Bo.

[Vickie]

A big thank you to Steve at K9 Pro whom I have found ALWAYS goes the extra mile, delivers on promise (LOL!) and importantly, has helped me to understand, harness and constructively deploy the high drive that Bo has. It seems somewhat ironic that the drive that I once found exhausting, intimidating and was somewhat in fear of, is now something that I actively encourage and help him satisfy in ways that we both love, have enormous fun with and which has only strengthened our bond. I’ve also made some lovely friendships within the K9 Pro community who have helped and supported Bo and I enormously along the way. Thank you!

Well done Vicki, Bo & of course Steve. I didn't know you before but can certainly testify to the wonderful bond you now have with Bo. It is beautiful to watch

[Skye GSD]

Just had to add this photo Vicki as it typifies the bond you and Bo have - a partnership meant to be. HB xx

[Skye GSD]

PS - and Bo is wearing his prong collar with pride!

[BorderBo]

PS - and Bo is wearing his prong collar with pride!

How did you manage to get that shot on here, HB?! Have you heard of copyright?! LOL! Just as well I happened to have just paid Shell for it!