Prong Collars

[BorderBo]

BorderBo

I deal better with people that are upfront about what they mean. I don't deal well with people who only try to say what they think will be what I want to hear. I find that confusing and sometimes dishonest. And you're right, I am crap at being sensitive to other people's feelings - I can never successfully predict how anyone is going to react to anything. I wrote in third person about skipping steps because firstly I didn't know if that applied to you or not and I do know it applies to me (and other people).

As for the lunging lurching problem, and the gentle leader... I plan to put the GL on my dog to stop the lunge starting (after possums and cats). Ie if the dog cannot get any speed up, there is far less damaging energy involved in being stopped than if a dog goes flat out to the end of a 2m or 3m lead and then is abruptly halted by whatever tool being used. Most dogs I know that have managed to do this kind of lunge in a GL have broken it before it broke them.

Just because I disagree with you about the GL doesn't mean either of us are "ill informed". We just have different sources of information and experience and disagree. Not mentioning how you felt about what I said earlier, meant that I could not explain with any more detail why I think what I think, or understand that you were not reading my posts in the manner I intended.

Your most recent post is most helpful in setting me straight. At least you got some benefit out of my first post by talking to Steve C.

I think you fail to see the point or my comments, but let's leave it there - yes, let's agree to disagree, on all counts. As for me getting some benefit from your first post by talking to Steve C? Not sure why you're taking credit for that initiative but feel free ..............

[BorderBo]

They are far more effective than anything else on the market.

I thought that training was the most effective way to sort this problem... ie if the training had been good to start with and the handler hadn't skipped steps... they wouldn't be in this situation.

Note - that doesn't apply to brain damaged dogs - but a prong collar isn't going to help those to loose lead walking either.

So as far as skipping steps are concerned, I think your comments are way off mark here - and being in "this situation" has been incredibly stressful and confidence shattering. Perhaps you could be abit more sensitive when you make thoughtless remarks like this.

To BORDERBO: I am so sorry that you had to give up on the dog you loved but think you should comfort yourself in knowing that you gave it your best shot. I also agree wholeheartedly with your reply to the first comment - totally uncalled for. In hindsight we would probably all use different techniques but all we ask is that some people should try walking a mile in our shoes before they judge.

I,too, have a high drive/reactive GSD and although an experienced GSD handler, I have never had such a challenge. After doing all the so-called "right/PC" training that is now indoctrinated in to most training clubs, we still looked like a novice handler with an out-of-control dog after 12 months in the club scene.

The next 3-4 months I spent in the "wilderness", chastising myself for not being strong enough to control my beloved girl in public with other dogs but had a dog that was brilliant at home.

I finally enlisted the help of Steve Courtenay (K9Pro) and the prong collar and I am so thankful I did. After 6 weeks we have improved so much that it is hard to think back to the months we wasted on a flat collar with a non-food/non toy driven dog.

Now, instead of looking for escape routes when we see other dogs on our daily walk, I welcome the chance to incorporate the lessons Steve has taught me and Skye and I are becoming the "team" I always knew we could be.

Take care BorderBo - I am sure your dog soulmate will be out there.

Skye GSD, is not high drive dog causing reactive behaving is over sharpness in the genes of the breeding causing this and nothing you do raising this dogs would make a difference is how the dog is born and only fix is training out the reactivity, is nothing to do with poor handling and bad owner is very challenging trait for the best owner and handler to work with. Unless you have trained and handled a sharp Shepherd Dog before and learned the trait, is easy for somebody to assumption you do it wrong from their experiencing of training dogs with sharpness trait as flat as a tack.

Sharpness is useful trait for easy training of the guard dog, but for pet dog my opinion is breeders should avoid this trait with better selection of breeding from more stable temperaments in their lines?

Joe

Interesting, Jo .... do you think this relates to GSD's only or is it your opinion that this genetic predisposition applies to all breeds?

[Skye GSD]

I am from the old school of training where I believe there should be a consequence for non-compliance coupled with effective verbal praise for correct behaviour. However, I was willing to try the new age methods and as it had been ten years since I had enjoyed the club scene with my last GSD, found it to be an extremely different arena. I had a dog that was not food or toy driven and the only other endorsed training tool was a flat collar. At no time was I offered an alternative to the training method that was not working and as a previous user of choke chain methods it took my daughter to point out that I had successfully trained 4 other GSD's with the choke chain so "if it ain't broke, why fix it".

Biggest problem was that I was unable to continue to train at my club unless I used the flat collar.

I understand that there are soft dogs that are able to be trained with the new age methods but my little girl is not a soft dog - she is high drive and I am looking forward to continuing my training with Steve to get the best out of her.

Don't think that there hasn't been times when I've thought "I just can't do this" and many a time our walks have ended in tears but to see the difference in Skye with the right method of training for her, my only regret is not contacting Steve sooner.

There is no "one size fits all" and sometimes it takes a few lost battles to get the right recipe. Our journey is far from over and I am sure there will still be tears along the way but it sure as hell looks brighter.

To BorderBo: if I had my time all over again, knowing what I know now, would I choose another high drive puppy - probably not - this old mare ain't what she used to be either!!!!!

[JoeK]

They are far more effective than anything else on the market.

I thought that training was the most effective way to sort this problem... ie if the training had been good to start with and the handler hadn't skipped steps... they wouldn't be in this situation.

Note - that doesn't apply to brain damaged dogs - but a prong collar isn't going to help those to loose lead walking either.

So as far as skipping steps are concerned, I think your comments are way off mark here - and being in "this situation" has been incredibly stressful and confidence shattering. Perhaps you could be abit more sensitive when you make thoughtless remarks like this.

To BORDERBO: I am so sorry that you had to give up on the dog you loved but think you should comfort yourself in knowing that you gave it your best shot. I also agree wholeheartedly with your reply to the first comment - totally uncalled for. In hindsight we would probably all use different techniques but all we ask is that some people should try walking a mile in our shoes before they judge.

I,too, have a high drive/reactive GSD and although an experienced GSD handler, I have never had such a challenge. After doing all the so-called "right/PC" training that is now indoctrinated in to most training clubs, we still looked like a novice handler with an out-of-control dog after 12 months in the club scene.

The next 3-4 months I spent in the "wilderness", chastising myself for not being strong enough to control my beloved girl in public with other dogs but had a dog that was brilliant at home.

I finally enlisted the help of Steve Courtenay (K9Pro) and the prong collar and I am so thankful I did. After 6 weeks we have improved so much that it is hard to think back to the months we wasted on a flat collar with a non-food/non toy driven dog.

Now, instead of looking for escape routes when we see other dogs on our daily walk, I welcome the chance to incorporate the lessons Steve has taught me and Skye and I are becoming the "team" I always knew we could be.

Take care BorderBo - I am sure your dog soulmate will be out there.

Skye GSD, is not high drive dog causing reactive behaving is over sharpness in the genes of the breeding causing this and nothing you do raising this dogs would make a difference is how the dog is born and only fix is training out the reactivity, is nothing to do with poor handling and bad owner is very challenging trait for the best owner and handler to work with. Unless you have trained and handled a sharp Shepherd Dog before and learned the trait, is easy for somebody to assumption you do it wrong from their experiencing of training dogs with sharpness trait as flat as a tack.

Sharpness is useful trait for easy training of the guard dog, but for pet dog my opinion is breeders should avoid this trait with better selection of breeding from more stable temperaments in their lines?

Joe

Interesting, Jo .... do you think this relates to GSD's only or is it your opinion that this genetic predisposition applies to all breeds?

Reactivity in most dogs is fear reaction caused by weak nerves. Bad experience can triggering fear response but weak nerve which is genetic in the dog is what causing dog to have difficulty getting over bad experience, so most reactivity is from nerve problem is genetic on my opinion in all dogs yes.

Joe

[corvus]

A dog has to be food-driven, or they'd die of starvation.

Is 'non-compliance' a behaviour?

Where has it been proven that 'weak nerve' is genetic? It's not even a term a geneticist would understand!

Or that head halters cause injury?

Or that prong collars are a superior tool to check chains or head halters?

There is an awful lot of hearsay in the dog world.

[Inevitablue]

Weak nerve might not be a term that geneticists use, however the principals of genes determining personality traits still correlates to dog trainers using the term weak nerve.

I think Joes description of weak nerve in breeding/genetics is relevant. Dogs, like humans are programmed by their genes which is then influenced by the environment. Personality is a heavily studied subject, and breeders would certainly be aware of the personalities they seem to regularly producing. Selective breeding is choosing certain personalities, as well as physical attributes and primal instincts.

How Joe relates that to certain personalities of dogs requiring different motivators and aversives would be an observation from his experience. A leadership/ dominant personality is going to require stronger aversives to change their mind about taking charge. A follower/ easily intimidated personality will require different motivators to face up to something threatening. By saying weak nerve he is identifying dogs of a certain personality trait.

In my observations of late at dog shows, I see certain lines of dogs that consistently have their tails clamped between their legs. This could be due to the socialization, handling and education from that kennel, but this is a breed that should be confident dogs. That's in their personality description. If Im ever looking for a stud for my girl there is no way I will risk using any of these bloodlines, as of course genetics would be playing a part in the fearful behaviour displayed. Environment and learning theories cannot be entirely responsible for behavior.

Thats how I interpret the label weak nerve.

[BorderBo]

Weak nerve might not be a term that geneticists use, however the principals of genes determining personality traits still correlates to dog trainers using the term weak nerve.

I think Joes description of weak nerve in breeding/genetics is relevant. Dogs, like humans are programmed by their genes which is then influenced by the environment. Personality is a heavily studied subject, and breeders would certainly be aware of the personalities they seem to regularly producing. Selective breeding is choosing certain personalities, as well as physical attributes and primal instincts.

How Joe relates that to certain personalities of dogs requiring different motivators and aversives would be an observation from his experience. A leadership/ dominant personality is going to require stronger aversives to change their mind about taking charge. A follower/ easily intimidated personality will require different motivators to face up to something threatening. By saying weak nerve he is identifying dogs of a certain personality trait.

In my observations of late at dog shows, I see certain lines of dogs that consistently have their tails clamped between their legs. This could be due to the socialization, handling and education from that kennel, but this is a breed that should be confident dogs. That's in their personality description. If Im ever looking for a stud for my girl there is no way I will risk using any of these bloodlines, as of course genetics would be playing a part in the fearful behaviour displayed. Environment and learning theories cannot be entirely responsible for behavior.

Thats how I interpret the label weak nerve.

Good post and well articulated / presented. What you say makes perfect sense .... to me.

[OSoSwift]

To me as well

[corvus]

Personality is a heavily studied subject.

By me. ;)

How Joe relates that to certain personalities of dogs requiring different motivators and aversives would be an observation from his experience. A leadership/ dominant personality is going to require stronger aversives to change their mind about taking charge. A follower/ easily intimidated personality will require different motivators to face up to something threatening. By saying weak nerve he is identifying dogs of a certain personality trait.

Let's not get confused between motivators and reinforcement. They might be the same or they might not. Whatever the case, the effect a reward has on behaviour is not dependent on the animal's personality, even if that animal may be acting under a personality-specific internal motivator (say, exploration for example). There is no question in my mind that personality affects dog behaviour, and there is evidence to support it. However, evidence that those personality affects are genetic is pretty thin on the ground, despite studies in other animals that have involved selectively bred personality types. There is plenty of evidence that personality expression (through behaviours) can spontaneously change to suit environmental changes, and is not hugely stable over time.

I think everyone assumes there is a genetic component, but AFAIK no one much knows what it is beyond it possibly has something to do with dopamine and/or serotonin receptors. When someone can tell me the method by which 'weak nerve' is entirely genetic, then I'll believe them. Until then, I think it's unfair to declare a dog's behaviour cannot be changed on the grounds that it is a result of the dog's 'weak nerve'. MOST dogs will get defensive if they get frightened, and I have met very few dogs that haven't been frightened at some stage. I know dogs that have learnt to be reactive about something in particular. If it works for one thing, it's not a stretch of the imagination for the dog to start trying it for other anxiety-inducing situations as well. This is not necessarily genetic, and even if it is, we don't know to what extent. I think it's an excellent idea to avoid breeding from lines of dogs that seem perpetually nervous, but I think it's a terrible idea to explain broad swathes of behaviour in a single dog with a declaration that it's genetic and therefore can't be altered.

[corvus]

Incidentally, there have been a few papers come out that looked at how different personality types learn operative tasks. (Over-)Reactivity is yet to be classified as a personality trait on its own, and the relationships between stress reactivity and personality are not well understood as far as I've been able to make out. Anyway, the results were a good deal more subtle than how much of an aversive/reward are required. Long extinction curves (persistence) and impulsivity seems to be where it's at. Definitely something that should be considered in training, but not something that can yet be related to stress reactivity.

[BorderBo]

Personality is a heavily studied subject.

By me. ;)

How Joe relates that to certain personalities of dogs requiring different motivators and aversives would be an observation from his experience. A leadership/ dominant personality is going to require stronger aversives to change their mind about taking charge. A follower/ easily intimidated personality will require different motivators to face up to something threatening. By saying weak nerve he is identifying dogs of a certain personality trait.

Let's not get confused between motivators and reinforcement. They might be the same or they might not. Whatever the case, the effect a reward has on behaviour is not dependent on the animal's personality, even if that animal may be acting under a personality-specific internal motivator (say, exploration for example). There is no question in my mind that personality affects dog behaviour, and there is evidence to support it. However, evidence that those personality affects are genetic is pretty thin on the ground, despite studies in other animals that have involved selectively bred personality types. There is plenty of evidence that personality expression (through behaviours) can spontaneously change to suit environmental changes, and is not hugely stable over time.

I think everyone assumes there is a genetic component, but AFAIK no one much knows what it is beyond it possibly has something to do with dopamine and/or serotonin receptors. When someone can tell me the method by which 'weak nerve' is entirely genetic, then I'll believe them. Until then, I think it's unfair to declare a dog's behaviour cannot be changed on the grounds that it is a result of the dog's 'weak nerve'. MOST dogs will get defensive if they get frightened, and I have met very few dogs that haven't been frightened at some stage. I know dogs that have learnt to be reactive about something in particular. If it works for one thing, it's not a stretch of the imagination for the dog to start trying it for other anxiety-inducing situations as well. This is not necessarily genetic, and even if it is, we don't know to what extent. I think it's an excellent idea to avoid breeding from lines of dogs that seem perpetually nervous, but I think it's a terrible idea to explain broad swathes of behaviour in a single dog with a declaration that it's genetic and therefore can't be altered.

Unless I missed something, I don't think this was said or intimated?

[JoeK]

Personality is a heavily studied subject.

By me. ;)

How Joe relates that to certain personalities of dogs requiring different motivators and aversives would be an observation from his experience. A leadership/ dominant personality is going to require stronger aversives to change their mind about taking charge. A follower/ easily intimidated personality will require different motivators to face up to something threatening. By saying weak nerve he is identifying dogs of a certain personality trait.

Let's not get confused between motivators and reinforcement. They might be the same or they might not. Whatever the case, the effect a reward has on behaviour is not dependent on the animal's personality, even if that animal may be acting under a personality-specific internal motivator (say, exploration for example). There is no question in my mind that personality affects dog behaviour, and there is evidence to support it. However, evidence that those personality affects are genetic is pretty thin on the ground, despite studies in other animals that have involved selectively bred personality types. There is plenty of evidence that personality expression (through behaviours) can spontaneously change to suit environmental changes, and is not hugely stable over time.

I think everyone assumes there is a genetic component, but AFAIK no one much knows what it is beyond it possibly has something to do with dopamine and/or serotonin receptors. When someone can tell me the method by which 'weak nerve' is entirely genetic, then I'll believe them. Until then, I think it's unfair to declare a dog's behaviour cannot be changed on the grounds that it is a result of the dog's 'weak nerve'. MOST dogs will get defensive if they get frightened, and I have met very few dogs that haven't been frightened at some stage. I know dogs that have learnt to be reactive about something in particular. If it works for one thing, it's not a stretch of the imagination for the dog to start trying it for other anxiety-inducing situations as well. This is not necessarily genetic, and even if it is, we don't know to what extent. I think it's an excellent idea to avoid breeding from lines of dogs that seem perpetually nervous, but I think it's a terrible idea to explain broad swathes of behaviour in a single dog with a declaration that it's genetic and therefore can't be altered.

Greetings Corvus,

I am respecting your study and knowledge of the theory, but is time for my opinion you taking the leash and apply in the real dog will answer more questions for yourself the theroy people still trying to working out. In the genes on the behavior of the Shepherd Dog, there was time with few green dogs I could work the dog and I knew on the trait whos the sire of the litter because they all display weak nerve off this dog and his brother. You putting another sire over the bitch and the problem is gone in the next pups, ok maybe we not having rocket sciencing to explain this, but we know if you sticking this bloodline dog on the is bitch is producing pups is no good on the nerve trait.

Weak nerve on the working dog has poor recovery from scary or painful experience and what happens is dog may having the good prey drive so is toy motivated and can teach him to chase the decoy and bite no worries, but when the decoy pressure the dog of weak nerve, the dog run away. So this nerve on the working dog deploy to catching offender and turn around and telling the dog piss off and the dog spook and run away is useless working dog see? The same happening on the weak nerve dog if he jump the fence and fall off sometimes taking weeks for him to have another jump. A hard nerve dog fall off the fence, he has another jump straight away and will even do so with sore leg. When the mind and body of the dog is pressured hard on the working dog, the nerve on the dog show up quickly and makes the difference on what dog should be working and what dog should be pet.

Joe

[corvus]

Never mind. I am pretty sure I'm not going to be understood.

Edited May 11, 2011 by corvus

[Erny]

Or that head halters cause injury?

There is evidence.

Or that prong collars are a superior tool to check chains or head halters?

The training aid suits the dog. You see the results.

There is an awful lot of hearsay in the dog world.

Perhaps hearsay to those who don't have the experience of them.

[JulesP]

BorderBo just wanted to say well done that you recognized it just wasn't working. I hope you find a nice companion dog to enjoy walks with

[BorderBo]

BorderBo just wanted to say well done that you recognized it just wasn't working. I hope you find a nice companion dog to enjoy walks with

Thank you, JulesP .... that's really lovely you .....

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

But it seems that what you're saying Mrs RB is that most of the dogs lunging are wearing faulty/state of disrepair head collars and they have therefore given way (thank goodness, IMO). But then, what of the dogs who have Head Collars in good state of repair and where the head collar has not given with the impact of momentum clashing with the sudden stop of a lead?

I suppose if the plastic clips break, the device is faulty - or is that the fail safe to prevent damage to the dog?

Susan Garrett reported to us students that she had dinner with Ruth E Foster who was a co-inventer of the GL - and Ruth said that she'd not had any reports of damage to dogs by the GL. And yet I have seen damage done by incorrectly fitted ones, and I've seen them break as have others posting here.

It is my understanding that no matter what tool you use to get the dog to walk calmly at your side - it helps if you train the dog to walk nicely in it with no distractions. Ie the dog needs to understand how to relieve the pressure from whatever collar it is in. Eg with prong collar, it needs to know in advance (of distractions) that the safe place to be is with the handler. Hence I would never recommend use of prong collar, without the training that goes with it. Same sort of thing with all the collars.

I have no way of knowing which collar on a powerful dog does the most damage when the dog is unaccustomed to wearing it or what its "safe" response is. I don't know how you'd research this without risking harm to a dog either (could the study get through the ethics committee?). But this is what happens every time an untrained dog is hooked by its neck to a lead for a walk among many distractions with an untrained/inexperienced handler.

I do find the front attach harness - gives me the most control over my dog's lunging. Because of the physics of a pivot point (on the dog's chest). There is similar physics in wrapping the lead around a pole to get some power and control back but this isn't going to be good for the dog secured by the neck either. I imagine the front attach harness having a greater area of contact on the dog, would also spread the load on the dog, and take it away from sensitve areas like the neck and spine, so be less harmful than the neck collars. But it doesn't give me control over what the dog is doing with her head.

I have heard that nose bands on horses can lead to broken noses and this area is very sensitive on a horse. Which is why halters usually gives control over a horse. But for the horse's safety, it is advised to tie a horse up to a bit of twine that would break (as a failsafe weak point) should the horse panic. Ie a horse running loose in a panic is preferable to one dead or dying of a broken nose/neck.

So I'm guessing that - I don't take the dog out where there are overwhelming distractions until both our training in low distraction areas are successful and reliable. And I have a second lead clipped to the front attach harness when I do go out and test the training. Ie I'd want the brunt of any lunge taken by the harness and not by the nose band.

I do suspect that my dog doesn't enjoy the flat collar, and the choke chain even less. She's the only dog I have ever known that does not get excited happy when I get the walking gear out. She likes being at the park with her friends, doesn't mind off lead heel work but really isn't thrilled about being on lead. Unless she's got it in her mouth. Mine doubles as a tug toy when required.

[Red Fox]

I have no way of knowing which collar on a powerful dog does the most damage when the dog is unaccustomed to wearing it or what its "safe" response is. I don't know how you'd research this without risking harm to a dog either (could the study get through the ethics committee?).

Ask a chiro...

MRB, If your dog is struggling to focus on you when required perhaps you should look at her motivation and drive to work - as opposed to 'controlling' where her head is at.

ETA, this thread has gone way OT.

BorderBo - you didn't fail your dog. You did everything within your power to resolve the problems, but the dog simply wasn't suitable for you. You then did what was best by the dog by returning him. I can't see where the failure is in that.

Edited May 11, 2011 by SecretKei

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

MRB, If your dog is struggling to focus on you when required perhaps you should look at her motivation and drive to work - as opposed to 'controlling' where her head is at.

SecretKei

Controlling where her head is at, is a small part of working on her motivation and drive to work... I'm not sure I can explain in a way that covers everything but a small part of it is she has been getting loads of re-inforcement and fun from the environment - without me, and she's been deciding when she's working and when she's not, when I should be doing that. And I have to work on all that. I admit I haven't liked the idea of following NILIF or refusing to engage when she wants to initiate play etc but nothing else has worked so that's where I'm at. We are improving day by day but I'm not where I want to be yet.

I did deliberately choose a dog that would not be in my face all the time looking for me to provide all her fun. And I have to balance that with a dog that sometimes has better ideas about what she wants to do. People do talk about the dogs that ask "How high" vs the ones that say "what for?". I've got a "what for?" dog.

[BorderBo]

I have no way of knowing which collar on a powerful dog does the most damage when the dog is unaccustomed to wearing it or what its "safe" response is. I don't know how you'd research this without risking harm to a dog either (could the study get through the ethics committee?).

Ask a chiro...

MRB, If your dog is struggling to focus on you when required perhaps you should look at her motivation and drive to work - as opposed to 'controlling' where her head is at.

ETA, this thread has gone way OT.

BorderBo - you didn't fail your dog. You did everything within your power to resolve the problems, but the dog simply wasn't suitable for you. You then did what was best by the dog by returning him. I can't see where the failure is in that.

Thanks, SecretKei - yes, this has gone way OT but I thank those who have given constructive and supportive contributions to my original and subsequent posts. What you say is correct (I gave it MY best)and my head knows that ... it's just my heart that's having a hard time reconciling the outcome for I loved the dog, as we do.