Prong Collars

[JoeK]

They are far more effective than anything else on the market.

I thought that training was the most effective way to sort this problem... ie if the training had been good to start with and the handler hadn't skipped steps... they wouldn't be in this situation.

Note - that doesn't apply to brain damaged dogs - but a prong collar isn't going to help those to loose lead walking either.

Yes, this is true. If you training properly from puppy, you tie him on his neck with a peice of string and by 4 months old you not needing collar at all, but when the dog is mistrained and he get bad behavior, the prong is best collar and nicer on the dog than the checking chain and actually the checking chain can causing far more injury to the dog than the prong if used wrong too.

Joe

[B-Q]

I agree with Joe, Bianca you need to find an experienced trainer who understands what is going on. I too would not use a head halter with a lunger, save trialling new things until you find someone experienced.

Personally, call the local Schutzhund/Sportdog club

Thank you both for your advice ;) This isn't a head collar but a gentle leader harness. I have never been to a positive only based club before and I am conflicted. I do think a lot of what is said makes sense such as working her at a distance and sub threshold but then I think surely a well timed correction could potentially sort this mess out too. The trainer did suggest I might consider a beviourist but then again that would just be one persons opinion too. Grrrr I am lost. All I know is that this problem has been getting worse - even before I tried the no corrections.

This just made me think of something I was reading the other day. I'm not trying to stir anyone up or hijack the thread but I was thinking with a reactive dog, particularily one that is reactive due to fear then wouldn't using +P just teach them not to act out, but doesn't make them feel better, you're relying on the dog keeping itself in check to avoid a leash pop. Whereas slow desensitization will create new associations for what the dog is reactive to?

I'm no expert but I am used to dealing with reactive dogs. Buster is DA and Quinn is having some reactivity issues that I'm trying to sort out before they become a problem. Although both my dogs are of incredibly soft temperament, as am I so very gentle training works for me.

I did buy a halti for Buster years ago whenI was trying to get his leash walking better (he was a puller for the first 5 years of his life) first time he saw a dog behind a fence, one that he never reacted to anymore and with a halti on he flipped out, lunging, barking and pulling. I couldn't get it off him fast enough and wouldn't use one again.

Like others have said, I do think prongs can be a useful training tool but you would have to understand them properly to use them.

[BMAK]

i have found using a check chain escalates my dogs reaction, compaired to a well fitted martingale half nylon half chain.

i think he feels the check chain getting tighter where as the martingale is already tight and the correction is much quicker and give a better reaction on my dog.

[Erny]

i think he feels the check chain getting tighter ...

If the check chain was being used properly, this shouldn't happen. The proper way to use a Check Chain is by applying a fast check. It should not be about your dog feeling it get tighter.

But this is just a point to raise. For you, if you are finding the martingale works better, that's good. If a martingale is effective, I'd prefer that over a check chain anyway.

Edited May 7, 2011 by Erny

[BorderBo]

They are far more effective than anything else on the market.

I thought that training was the most effective way to sort this problem... ie if the training had been good to start with and the handler hadn't skipped steps... they wouldn't be in this situation.

Note - that doesn't apply to brain damaged dogs - but a prong collar isn't going to help those to loose lead walking either.

Thanks for that and your assumptions, however, this is a rescue dog I adopted at 7 months and have had for 3 months, who has had plenty of other behavioural issues that I haven't even gone into here but which I have been successfully able to progress with training and working the NILIF program. For the first two weeks we had him, he was quiet and non-reactive and being walked on a flat collar without any issues. Prior to adopting him, he was sharing a residential house with 30 other dogs and had not been walked outside of the property by the foster carer who whilst a caring and well-intentioned soul, did not carry out a proper assessment on the dog or whether we were suitably matched. I have taken great lengths and time(not to mention expense) trying to work with this dog, and have enlisted professional help in addition to an in-house training / boarding facility with follow up obedience classes, to give him and I the best possible chance of resolving these issues. I had three bad falls in a week which was the prompter for the prong collar introduction by our trainer. So as far as skipping steps are concerned, I think your comments are way off mark here - and being in "this situation" has been incredibly stressful and confidence shattering. Perhaps you could be abit more sensitive when you make thoughtless remarks like this. As an adjunct, I pretty much hit the wall last week with the stress and anxiety of the situation and worrying that the next fall may result in more serious injuries than those already sustained. Unable to concentrate or dedicate time to my business and my family and feeling way out of my depth and desperate, the dog was returned to the rescue centre where he came from where he is now apparently extremely happy to be amongst a pack of 30 dogs, playing to his heart's content, walking on a loose lead with four other dogs and I have been made to feel (and do feel) like a complete idiot and failure, having let this dog down - a dog whom I loved and miss dearly.

[Skye GSD]

They are far more effective than anything else on the market.

I thought that training was the most effective way to sort this problem... ie if the training had been good to start with and the handler hadn't skipped steps... they wouldn't be in this situation.

Note - that doesn't apply to brain damaged dogs - but a prong collar isn't going to help those to loose lead walking either.

So as far as skipping steps are concerned, I think your comments are way off mark here - and being in "this situation" has been incredibly stressful and confidence shattering. Perhaps you could be abit more sensitive when you make thoughtless remarks like this.

To BORDERBO: I am so sorry that you had to give up on the dog you loved but think you should comfort yourself in knowing that you gave it your best shot. I also agree wholeheartedly with your reply to the first comment - totally uncalled for. In hindsight we would probably all use different techniques but all we ask is that some people should try walking a mile in our shoes before they judge.

I,too, have a high drive/reactive GSD and although an experienced GSD handler, I have never had such a challenge. After doing all the so-called "right/PC" training that is now indoctrinated in to most training clubs, we still looked like a novice handler with an out-of-control dog after 12 months in the club scene.

The next 3-4 months I spent in the "wilderness", chastising myself for not being strong enough to control my beloved girl in public with other dogs but had a dog that was brilliant at home.

I finally enlisted the help of Steve Courtenay (K9Pro) and the prong collar and I am so thankful I did. After 6 weeks we have improved so much that it is hard to think back to the months we wasted on a flat collar with a non-food/non toy driven dog.

Now, instead of looking for escape routes when we see other dogs on our daily walk, I welcome the chance to incorporate the lessons Steve has taught me and Skye and I are becoming the "team" I always knew we could be.

Take care BorderBo - I am sure your dog soulmate will be out there.

[OSoSwift]

Please do not beat yourself up, some dogs and people and situations just don't gell.

It sounds liek avery unique and stressful situation you were in and one that it seems you have done everything to try and rectify. It is easy to sit there on a computer and sprout things and very different living them!

I think you have gone far beyond what many have done to try and get this to work. IT sounds as though this dog really needs otehr dogs around him and probably does not know how to function outside a large number of dogs.

I feel very very sorry for you, but please do not say you are a failure, this was a VERY complex situation.

[BorderBo]

Please do not beat yourself up, some dogs and people and situations just don't gell.

It sounds liek avery unique and stressful situation you were in and one that it seems you have done everything to try and rectify. It is easy to sit there on a computer and sprout things and very different living them!

I think you have gone far beyond what many have done to try and get this to work. IT sounds as though this dog really needs otehr dogs around him and probably does not know how to function outside a large number of dogs.

I feel very very sorry for you, but please do not say you are a failure, this was a VERY complex situation.

Thank you, Skye GSD and OSoSwift for your responses and support. Actually, I was able to get an emergency appointment with Steve at K9Pro last Monday and he set out a program for us to work and put Bo in a prong collar but to be honest, I was already at my own personal breaking point and regret that I hadn't been to see Steve earlier when I was in a better place physically and emotionally - I had already been to two different trainers and Bo had been to a boarding / training program where he responded well within the confines of the training area - out in the big wide world, however, it was a different matter, with him reverting to his out-of-control reactivity once again. Thinking back on that, he was also being kennelled with several other dogs, allowing him unlimited playtime and socialisation, consequently meeting his drive satisfaction need. Back at home as a single dog, his reactivity built back up once again.

After several falls and a painful shoulder injury, I was at the point where I was waking up in the early hours of the morning with anxiety, dreading taking him out and unable to concentrate on anything but Bo and these issues which I felt out of my depth with. I was neglecting my business, my family, myself. I was even considering taking three months leave from my business to concentrate on him full-time - realistically, that would have meant losing my business and income of 14 years but during that last week, I was considering it seriously. It was suggested putting Bo in a kennel for a period so I could get my act back together and now, of course, I wonder if I shouldn't have done this - kept going with it after a short break.

Your right about hindsight, Skye GSD, I keep going over it and thinking what I could have done differently, how I might have handled things differently. Like your girl, Bo, was well-behaved and respectful at home - I did alot of work with him, working the NILIF program and obedience training daily. He became a very respectful dog in that way. Reading posts on this forum, it would seem my leadership skills were not strong enough though interestingly, Bo was not my first dog - I've had dogs (and horses) all my life .... high energy, working breeds, too, so I have no idea why my relationship with Bo was of such a different dynamic.

I am naturally heartbroken and struggling with my decision a week on - it doesn't sit easy, however, my main concern now is for Bo and that he is re-homed with the right person / family. He is back with his original foster carer and his canine pack of 30, where his drive satisfaction is now being taken care of. He's not exhibiting any of his reactivity in this environment and so I sense there is a big question mark over whether it exists at all - or if it does, it's just with me. That worries the hell out of me - that he is not being properly assessed. How can he be with 30 other dogs living free-range in a residential house - all they see is that he is not aggressive with other dogs, which he is not .... and he is obedience trained, which he is, but ......At the risk of sounding emotional and dramatic (which I feel right now) all I want to do is drive the 8 hours down south and go bring him home and try again, with renewed determination and energy.

Thanks for all the constructive and supportive feedback with regard to this post and others I have made - I have learned much from you during this journey but I would have to agree with you Skye GSD, it's often wise to refrain from thoughtless and totally non-constructive comments (or rather judgements) until you have walked a mile in someone else's shoes.

[Staff'n'Toller]

It sounds as though you made the right decision.

It's my own personal observation that some male dogs are better with male leaders...just saying (I'm assuming you are female?!).

You sound fairly busy in your home life- there's no reason the right dog can't fit into that, but you might like to look towards non-working breeds that are more human focused and don't have needs that are incompatible with your needs (family, running a business etc.).

As the others have said, don't beat yourself up, there may be lots of owners Bo is not suited to- not just yourself.

Edited May 10, 2011 by Staff'n'Toller

[LilBailey]

I have just looked at this thread and feel your pain. The last post by you suggests to me that Bo may have needed the support of the other dogs to make him feel safe and not need to react...Just a thought.

Another thought is that maybe it is all of the work that you put in to him that has made him the dog he is now. I myself have a sog that was highley reactive with other dogs and her owner put in 10 months worth of work and has improved the general behavour of her so much she is a different dog to she was when she came out of the pound. BUT only at our house at the ladys house who had her she was fighting constantly with her other dog. The change of environment has aloud her to relax and display all of the things that she was taught.

That was a bit of a ramble I'm sorry but just trying to make the point that I think you have improved the life of Bo even though he may not be able to live that life with you.

[BorderBo]

thanks for your kind support - It is appreciated.

I did have all the right intentions and put in alot of hard slog, trust me. I have a home business with flexible working hours so it has always enabled me to spend alot of time with my previous dog who passed away at Xmas aged 14 - now she was very high energy dog (cattle x jrt) and quite the alpha bitch but there were never these sorts of issues experienced as with Bo - she was well-socialised from a pup and a very obedient girl who knew her place in the family pack, despite there not being a NILIF program set in place back then! Certainly, there were huge improvements with Bo on so many levels and I hope this serves him well for the future. A man handler is an interesting notion - his previous owner was female too - though my partner (male) had as much trouble with controlling his reactivity onlead and he is not a novice dog owner, having owned and showed weis' for many, many years. Aside from Bo's reactivity, we also discovered upon bringing him home that he had HD (I observed what I thought was some stiffness in his hind legs when we talk him for a short walk on the day we met him but everyone discounted this, including the foster carer who thought he had probably hurt himself tearing around with all those other dogs). A few days home and I thought there was too much laxity in his hips and took him off for an x-ray and it was confirmed he had HP (on a rating of 1 to 10 he scored a 7-8) so we whisked him off to SASH here in Sydney to see an ortho specialist who recommended what is major surgery to correct the problem (TPO) - the vet and specialist were surprised that I picked it up as they could not see much of any clinical signs themselves it was really the xrays that confirmed the diagnosis. As it turns out not many dogs are eligible for this op (age under 12 months, no evidence of arthritis and several other factors)but he was and so we had this scheduled back in April but had to pull the plug because we all concurred that his high energy and excitability would most probably sabotage the 12 week containment and he would be in a worse state - the specialist advised to let nature take its course and deal with the HD at a later stage if it needed dealing with (in all likelihood a hip replacement further down the track). We were up for that commitment to him 100% and so it is a real &^%$# for him that this didn't work out because I wonder how many people will be prepared to adopt a dog with known HD - the foster carer doesn't seem to think this is a problem because he is not showing clinical signs but then she doesn't seem to acknowledge that he is also highly reactive either because he isn't displaying this at her residence due to his drive satisfaction being met. So, aside from the behavioural issues dealt with over the past 3 months there have been health concerns too. You'd think I would feel relieved to be shot of it all but I am not - quite the contrary. I feel devastated, disappointed and a little angry too (with myself). There must be a lesson somewhere here to be learned and I guess it will become clearer to me as the pain subsides. Yes, I do acknowledge that a working dog breed is probably not the right dog for me though my last two dogs were and being a high energy person myself, I had no problems meeting their physical needs. Different dogs all around though and the old brown mare probably ain't what she used to be perhaps too.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

borderbo

I'm sorry you thought my comment was a personal attack on you.

I skipped steps with my dog too. She's not reactive but she has other problems. I skipped steps because sometimes I didn't know any better, and sometimes I was impatient and demanded too much of my dog too soon. Some dogs are much easier to train than others. The dog I have now, has been by far, the most difficult I've ever tried to train, and I've worked with ACDx before. Any time you (I) have problems, you (I) have to look at what you are doing (I am doing) to contribute. What I'm trying to do now, is be a better dog trainer and a lot more consistent.

So while you aren't too happy with what I said, I can see you're also looking at what it is that you could have done differently and this will make you a better dog owner in the future. Which is a good thing all round.

So Bo wasn't the right dog for you but you're able to give him another chance via the foster carer, and you have a much better understanding of what you need in a dog. I'm glad Steve could help a bit. And I hope you do consider getting another dog.

[BorderBo]

Mrs Rusty Bucket

I didn't think your comment was a personal attack on me as such, I just thought your comments were presumptuous and insensitive - but most importantly, they were not constructive and of no value to me, the OP. In fact, you weren't even addressing your post to me, the OP, but speaking about me in the third person in a very critical way - I think it was unnecessary and I thought you may be totally ignorant (well, obviously!) of what impact such insensitivity can have on someone who is desperately trying to do the right thing / be the right dog trainer / owner.

You took time previously in another post on this thread (and I was appreciative of that) to recommend a Gentle Leader to me for a dog that is a lunger / lurcher and whilst most would agree, including me, that such a tool is the last thing you should use for a reactive dog who lurches / lunches at other dogs and could cause potential damage to the neck / spine of the dog, I understood that you were trying to be constructive if not ill-informed and I didn't feel it necessary to highlight this to you because I knew you were trying to help.

Just a thought - think about what say and its potential impact on someone who needs constructive help not judgement (particularly, in the first person).

Cheers.

[JoeK]

They are far more effective than anything else on the market.

I thought that training was the most effective way to sort this problem... ie if the training had been good to start with and the handler hadn't skipped steps... they wouldn't be in this situation.

Note - that doesn't apply to brain damaged dogs - but a prong collar isn't going to help those to loose lead walking either.

So as far as skipping steps are concerned, I think your comments are way off mark here - and being in "this situation" has been incredibly stressful and confidence shattering. Perhaps you could be abit more sensitive when you make thoughtless remarks like this.

To BORDERBO: I am so sorry that you had to give up on the dog you loved but think you should comfort yourself in knowing that you gave it your best shot. I also agree wholeheartedly with your reply to the first comment - totally uncalled for. In hindsight we would probably all use different techniques but all we ask is that some people should try walking a mile in our shoes before they judge.

I,too, have a high drive/reactive GSD and although an experienced GSD handler, I have never had such a challenge. After doing all the so-called "right/PC" training that is now indoctrinated in to most training clubs, we still looked like a novice handler with an out-of-control dog after 12 months in the club scene.

The next 3-4 months I spent in the "wilderness", chastising myself for not being strong enough to control my beloved girl in public with other dogs but had a dog that was brilliant at home.

I finally enlisted the help of Steve Courtenay (K9Pro) and the prong collar and I am so thankful I did. After 6 weeks we have improved so much that it is hard to think back to the months we wasted on a flat collar with a non-food/non toy driven dog.

Now, instead of looking for escape routes when we see other dogs on our daily walk, I welcome the chance to incorporate the lessons Steve has taught me and Skye and I are becoming the "team" I always knew we could be.

Take care BorderBo - I am sure your dog soulmate will be out there.

Skye GSD, is not high drive dog causing reactive behaving is over sharpness in the genes of the breeding causing this and nothing you do raising this dogs would make a difference is how the dog is born and only fix is training out the reactivity, is nothing to do with poor handling and bad owner is very challenging trait for the best owner and handler to work with. Unless you have trained and handled a sharp Shepherd Dog before and learned the trait, is easy for somebody to assumption you do it wrong from their experiencing of training dogs with sharpness trait as flat as a tack.

Sharpness is useful trait for easy training of the guard dog, but for pet dog my opinion is breeders should avoid this trait with better selection of breeding from more stable temperaments in their lines?

Joe

Edited May 10, 2011 by JoeK

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

BorderBo

I deal better with people that are upfront about what they mean. I don't deal well with people who only try to say what they think will be what I want to hear. I find that confusing and sometimes dishonest. And you're right, I am crap at being sensitive to other people's feelings - I can never successfully predict how anyone is going to react to anything. I wrote in third person about skipping steps because firstly I didn't know if that applied to you or not and I do know it applies to me (and other people).

As for the lunging lurching problem, and the gentle leader... I plan to put the GL on my dog to stop the lunge starting (after possums and cats). Ie if the dog cannot get any speed up, there is far less damaging energy involved in being stopped than if a dog goes flat out to the end of a 2m or 3m lead and then is abruptly halted by whatever tool being used. Most dogs I know that have managed to do this kind of lunge in a GL have broken it before it broke them.

Just because I disagree with you about the GL doesn't mean either of us are "ill informed". We just have different sources of information and experience and disagree. Not mentioning how you felt about what I said earlier, meant that I could not explain with any more detail why I think what I think, or understand that you were not reading my posts in the manner I intended.

Your most recent post is most helpful in setting me straight. At least you got some benefit out of my first post by talking to Steve C.

[JoeK]

BorderBo

I deal better with people that are upfront about what they mean. I don't deal well with people who only try to say what they think will be what I want to hear. I find that confusing and sometimes dishonest. And you're right, I am crap at being sensitive to other people's feelings - I can never successfully predict how anyone is going to react to anything. I wrote in third person about skipping steps because firstly I didn't know if that applied to you or not and I do know it applies to me (and other people).

As for the lunging lurching problem, and the gentle leader... I plan to put the GL on my dog to stop the lunge starting (after possums and cats). Ie if the dog cannot get any speed up, there is far less damaging energy involved in being stopped than if a dog goes flat out to the end of a 2m or 3m lead and then is abruptly halted by whatever tool being used. Most dogs I know that have managed to do this kind of lunge in a GL have broken it before it broke them.

Just because I disagree with you about the GL doesn't mean either of us are "ill informed". We just have different sources of information and experience and disagree. Not mentioning how you felt about what I said earlier, meant that I could not explain with any more detail why I think what I think, or understand that you were not reading my posts in the manner I intended.

Your most recent post is most helpful in setting me straight. At least you got some benefit out of my first post by talking to Steve C.

Talking of this Gentle Leader, we needing to know that this device and other like this one were made by training faction against giving corrections on the dog. Is not made because it is better tool for training the right behavior is made for training the right behavior without corrections is what its for. I have very much the admiration for what the motovating training can do for getting a dog to do things, but often they fail on getting the dog not to do something and they do very complex exercise which taking great skill and practice to save the dog a good correction and sometimes a good correction on the collar is what the dog needs most.

Motivational works well on dogs with good genes to behave but problem dogs with the genes to misbehave and disobey in my opinion need little bit of the stick to setting the boundaries and consequences. I would have more faith in the Steve the K9 Pro fitting the prong on the lunger for retraining than the gentle leader and food clicking on this behavior.

Joe

Edited May 10, 2011 by JoeK

[Erny]

Most dogs I know that have managed to do this kind of lunge in a GL have broken it before it broke them.

Hey Mrs. RB. Pardon me if you don't mind me asking about what you've said here (above quote). And I also hope the OP does not mind me veering on this tangent a little.

I have never seen a dog break a head collar (whilst it was on), least of all the Gentle Leader. Yet your indication (the way I read it) is that you have seen numerous do this?

The Gentle Leaders are robust head collars and IMO it would take a lot of force to have them break. The shock of that force MUST go somewhere and I can't imagine the path of least resistence would be anywhere other than the dog's skeletal and/or muscular structure.

I am also curious to know how you know the dogs you have seen manage to lunge and consequently break a Gentle Leader Head Collar have not caused themselves any damage.

[huski]

Micha has broken out of a head collar before, it was a halti brand I think that came apart at the plastic snaps.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Hi Erny

I watched a black lab - very big and boisterous and um trained by someone who uses a large number of methods that I would avoid and seemed very ineffective on her dog. She was quite fond of the correction that involves scolding her dog. And her dog was quite fond of bolting.

Anyway. Big lab - tried to bolt while wearing the head halter and lady was left holding little pieces. I think the clip that the lead was attached to broke and the dog also got out of or broke the bit that goes around the neck and under the skull. I suspect the whole thing was not correctly fitted. I didn't have a close look because the lady was very angry by then and I tend to avoid people that are screaming and yelling.

Dog was back at club the next week showing no signs of injury. They still used the GL - a new one, but also a clip to a standard choke chain. Most head halters I've seen at my club these days are clipped on the halter and a choke chain at the same time.

Others I have seen - I would have to say the bit that went around the neck was not correctly fitted, and the clip came apart. Maybe it was never clipped up properly or it was a substandard clip.

I've had problems with that kind of buckle unbuckling itself so some of them are just not reliable - though not seen it specifically with the GL, and never had any problems when I was using my GL.

My dog was so sensitive to it, that I put the lightest thread of a lead on it that I could find and then attached the horse rope to a normal flat collar around her neck (and kept that loose) just in case. Never needed the horse lead but she is well capabable of cutting a standard webbing lead in pieces with only three bites. I've got several destroyed that way.

I prefer the front attach harness but it doesn't give me control over her head ie stop her from sniffing the ground and tracking possums and doggy friends when she's supposed to be working with me. So I plan to follow the method outlined at the back in "Shaping Success" by Susan Garrett. First I've got to find the halter, and that's a whole nother story.

[Erny]

Thanks Mrs RB and Huski.

From your post Mrs RB, I had visions of the actual halter falling apart. My mistake I see. Sorry that I misread. I agree that plastic clips are unreliable (I don't even permit flat collar/plastic clip combos in my classes for this very reason) and that fail safes are certainly a recommendation. I too tend to use an over-sized check chain as a fail-safe for this purpose. They seem to do the job quite nicely.

Save for a faulty plastic clip attachment - perhaps one which is already loose through wear and tear - I still would imagine there must be some sizable impact on the dog's head and neck for a head collar in good repair to give at the seams, so to speak.

But it seems that what you're saying Mrs RB is that most of the dogs lunging are wearing faulty/state of disrepair head collars and they have therefore given way (thank goodness, IMO). But then, what of the dogs who have Head Collars in good state of repair and where the head collar has not given with the impact of momentum clashing with the sudden stop of a lead?

Edited May 10, 2011 by Erny