Newbie Question

[Curly Girl]

Hi,

I have an Airedale Terrier. He likes to 'play' eg chasings or zoomies round the living room, but he isn't that keen to 'play' more formally.

He isn't that interested in balls (wouldn't dream of chasing one and bring it back) and tug is not really his thing. I have tried squeaky tugs, rope tugs, an old footy sock, fleece tugs, you name it we have tugged it. He will have a bit of a go, then walk away. He doesn't get excited when he sees them. I see BCs and labs at training getting so worked up and he just watches their foolishness.

I have tried a food tug, which he liked when the food was in it, but once it's gone so is his interest. I would like to do agility, but how to start with a non toy or tug motivated dog. Food on the other hand is more his bag.. where ever, when ever he's up for a snack.

Any suggestions?

Regards

Curly Girl

[Sparty]

A lot of the time your interest and excitement is directly related ie insane stupid noises and enthusiasm jumping around like a nut seems to help also take it away before he loses interest, i also reward a GIVE command to get it off my dogs

mine are very into growling and shaking so i do the same

[tlc]

Hi There, is there any reason why he has to play tug? One of my girls is never interested in tug and will not retrieve anything, I have tried and persevered until I was blue in the face. I just figured in the end she doesn't like it she doesn't do it so why should I keep fighting an uphill battle! She is a fab little obedience dog and doesn't step a foot out of line with training, formal and informal so I just go with it.

[persephone]

Agreed- if he will get excited for a hug, or a treat , or an ear scratch - then why does he have to tug? I have never trained dogs for competition ...but have trained dogs to work sheep, guide dogs, and pets , and have never played tug with any of them P'raps they have been neglected ...

[Curly Girl]

OK, maybe I have misunderstood. I would like to eventually do agility. I thought that you needed to have your dog keen on tugging to have a non food reinforcer to use when training for different agility obstacles. This is based on watching some training DVDs that a lady from my club has let me borrow. Obviously I haven't got that quite right.

I do the jumping around and making silly noises which he thinks is fun for a little while, but then he goes off and does his own thing. He is very self contained.

Thanks for your comments. It has given me some food for thought.

CG

[shelby-001]

I have two Amstaffs and neither of them are overly interested in tugging and as for 'fetching' well you throw something and they look at you as if to say, 'YOU threw it stupid, you go and get it', LMAO... every no n then if they are playing crazy together I'll inject myself with a tug and get 5 minutes in (IF that) or get two chases, but then they are over it VERY quickly!

Do what they like, they will be more cooperative that way I would think!

[tlc]

Hopefully some of the more experienced agility experts might pop in here or you could pop a thread up in the training forum, you may get more traffic in there. I have done basic agility with all of mine and never used tug as a reinforcer, one of mine loves the ball and that is her reward for most things, when we are training.

Edited May 2, 2011 by tlc

[Kavik]

It is useful in agility if your dog will tug, but not essential (mine won't tug outside of the yard). It is great to have a reward that you can throw to work on distance work and sending ahead, and toys sometimes produce more excitement than food. I use a squeaky toy that I throw as well as food (depending on the obstacle and what I am rewarding), other people use balls.

[poodlefan]

It is useful in agility if your dog will tug, but not essential (mine won't tug outside of the yard). It is great to have a reward that you can throw to work on distance work and sending ahead, and toys sometimes produce more excitement than food. I use a squeaky toy that I throw as well as food (depending on the obstacle and what I am rewarding), other people use balls.

I'd look at more inventive ways to food (food pouches, food in throwable containers) than trying to build interest in something that doesn't rock your dog's boat.

If its not motivating to the dog, its not a motivator you should use. Use what works.

[J...]

OK, maybe I have misunderstood. I would like to eventually do agility. I thought that you needed to have your dog keen on tugging to have a non food reinforcer to use when training for different agility obstacles. This is based on watching some training DVDs that a lady from my club has let me borrow. Obviously I haven't got that quite right.

I do the jumping around and making silly noises which he thinks is fun for a little while, but then he goes off and does his own thing. He is very self contained.

Thanks for your comments. It has given me some food for thought.

CG

In an ideal world yes you would have the ability to use both toys and food for agility - tugging especially given the interaction required between you and your dog. The more you have in your toolkit the more flexibility you have in rewarding. Depends on how far you want to get into agility too - some people are happy to rock up to training, have fun for an hour a week and not work on developing it any further. Others are far more addicted and want to get the best they possibly can from their agility partnership with their dog.

As you've found, not all dogs are naturally toy driven - but with some work you might get him there. Start taking notice of when your dog will "play" with you or interact with a toy. Is it something he does when thoroughly excited with heaps going on around him, or something he only does in the comfort of his own lounge room? Is there anything that interests him at all toy wise - grab one, use it only for training - not as an everyday backyard or house toy. Tease him, move it away quickly, don't shove it in his face, make stupid noises if that's what is working for him - pay close attention to his body language which will tell you what works for him and what doesn't.

Once you've got something happening - end on a fun note and finish while he's still interested in the toy, even if it's just 10 seconds. Pair that toy with something that he loves straight away - something that he finds heaps of fun, you said he likes chasing and zoomies - is that something you can use as a reward for his interaction with a toy? Then keep building on that 10 seconds. What you're trying to do is build an association with fun stuff with the toy, which in turn then builds value in that toy.

In the meantime, jackpot toys are a great bridge - make a big game out of running to the jackpot, mimic whatever you've done with the toy you've chosen to use for a few seconds and then open the jackpot toy and let him get his nose into it to get the treats - don't use them like a treat bag. It is really quite hard to get a dog to interact with a toy once they know there is food on offer though - even my two toy obsessed dogs will hold out for food once I've handed over food treats. It's a topic which could fill pages so I will leave it at that.

Is there someone at club who might be able to give you some hands on assistance that could help as well - especially someone who's been there done that with a dog who wasn't overly toy motivated? Good luck

[skip]

My boy wouldn't even tug the food filled tug toy I brought from CleanRun! He tugs when I get home (after 6 years of trying) and once only he tugged at a trial but thats about it.

And sorry , my chihuahua x is never ever going to tug.

I do agility with both and have learnt heaps from running them. They have some titles and between them compet ranging from novice (agility) to masters (jumping).

Both dogs were older when I got them and didn't get good starts. Food works for the chi x and maybe food and me work for the boy.Sometimes ;)

Agility can work without tug but if you can't get it... Try whatever works. I have a food pouch ( red fluffy "Elmo" pencilcase really) that I throw as a reward to get the dog focused ahead. I go to open it for rewarding. And your dog might start tugging this eventually.

I know someone whose dog likes leaves! What a easy reward. Kick the leaf around and the dog is happy.

I did hear the club I train at is no longer keen to pass dogs from class one who don't tug. I was going to query that as that means neither of mine would have ever started and yet I've gone on to get lots of experience and have loads of fun running mine. My dogs are slower than some but you still learn the handling and moves that you need. Plus have fun :D

Keep going! I'm sure your boy can do it. Tell him agility is just zoomies with jumps!

[fuzzy82]

Tugging can be trained. If he's motivated by food, mark and reward for any tug at all. Soon enough the tugging becomes self reinforcing.

[skip]

Do you think so, Fuzzy82? In terms of being able to teach tugging. Can you tell me more?

My friend is teaching her bc to tug. She is working really hard to get a tug at home and at trials. She has food and if the dog now hangs on to the tug for a while , she is allowed to release and get a food reward. My friend is good with her dog and will make sure she gets the tug for a while and then rewards. The dogs concentration has improved heaps already as before the dog was loosing focus in runs. Busy looking around.

My dog tugs well in its lounge room!! For a minute! I am now trying to work on tugging too. At a trial on Sunday he grabbed a toy and seemed keen. Now he is in higher classes he is too slow to make time. At trials he does slow down. He is physically very capable of flying thru a course like he does at home or training. So far I am getting him to tug at home and once he is holding on and I can really feel him getting into it, I get him to "give" and treat. He seems to have gotten this tug - treat concept pretty fast. I intend to get this behaviour more and then start outside. Then try it on walks, out and about, at training and then at trials. Is this how it works?

As he gets happier tugging I need less food reinforcement?. Tugging can get him excited which is good as he is the most laid back dog normally.

I gave up on tugging ages ago and now I am having to face it again as I need to try something. And its all learning a new skill - more knowledge for dog number 3 :D

[RubyStar]

One of mine won't tug. I have half heartedly tried, but it came down to she doesn't want to, so why bother? I found other ways to reward her for agility (and obedience). Both mine love food, so a lot of what I have taught has been using food. I must say though, to teach weaves, even though using food is possible, finding a toy your dog likes to train it is worthwhile IMO (well I guess it depends on the method you teach it I guess). I can only imagine how many truckloads of food I would have had to go through with all the weaving repetitions in 2x2 training if both of mine weren't nuts about their squeaky ball! The cost and their waistlines, I'd hate to think

Edited May 26, 2011 by RubyStar

[aussielover]

Agility is meant to be really fun, so its more about what the dog finds rewarding. My dog is toy and food motivated, but she doesn't really care for verbal praise or petting.

You can teach a dog to tug, but it will probably never be the most rewarding thing for them if you've had to make a big effort to teach them.

I prefer to use something that my dog find snaturally rewarding.

eventually( ( well actually possibly, quite soon after starting) the dog begins to find the agility equipment/course itself quite rewarding. I've only been doing it for a month and my already dog loves it and will do a course even when I have no reward in my hand. She is really excited by the time we finish and now I usually reward with a game she enjoys (tug or fetch).

[fuzzy82]

Do you think so, Fuzzy82? In terms of being able to teach tugging. Can you tell me more?

Sorry, I forgot all about this thread.

My poodle x was never really into toys much. She very rarely showed any interest in playing with toys, wouldn't tug, she might chase a ball but give up as soon as it stopped etc. I think the reason I started rewarding around toys was because I wanted to teach her a trick of picking up a toy and putting it somewhere. So to begin with I clicked her for any interest in a specific toy. It wasn't long before she was mouthing it and half picking it up, but she still wasn't interested in the toy itself, she did it for the food reward.

I wasn't interested in toy drive at this point, so my memory is a little vague as to how it progressed from there, but I think I would wave the toy in front of her and c/t for any mouthing, then slight tugs etc.

And then suddenly she would tug with me, and she now also will go over to a toy and start messing around with it on her own. She's nowhere near as tuggy as my other dog who is naturally toy driven, but she will play a decent game of tug and seems to enjoy it.

To continue building toy drive I try to stop just as she reaches her peak, at the point where if I stop she goes 'I want more!!'. If you wait until they start to get over it and if you stop they think 'well that was a good game' then the drive for it doesn't increase.