Leash Aggression / Frustration

[JoeK]

I understand in the clicker training people the aiming is to kill the aggression in the dog

No. But thanks for the lesson in working dogs, I look forward to seeing your performance in the working arena some day. Have you got any videos of good working dogs you could share that would illustrate your points?

Probably little bit off the path in the talk on the thread my apology, is good chat Adian2 thanking you. I buy a book today on the clicker and try some concept on my wife Labrador we see was happenning, yes?

Joe

[JoeK]

Can you control the protection dog in the defence drive on the clicker and the answer is no. That is telling me that the clicking method is lacking on the crunch of aggression in the behavior modification and is the reason why I don't using these clicking methods to fixing aggression in the dog, yes? My opinion if the method on the training cant work on the top of extreme, is limited in the effectiveness is my thinking.

Why is your answer no? Is it somehow impossible to use a clicker to teach a dog to switch between 'drives', or to respond to cues with a high degree of reliability? A lot of people are using it for just that. Control doesn't come from the willingness to use corrections. It comes from sound conditioning and clear cues. You can do that just as well with a clicker as you can with anything else.

My believing is a bit of carrot and bit of stick is good and the best trainers are the ones who know when to apply the carrot and when to apply the stick from reading the dog getting the best results. All stick or all carrot doesnt achieve the best dog in the training for my thinking.

The OP has already ruled out punishments. Sounds to me like they know when to apply the carrot and when to apply the stick. Just because they have made a different decision than you might have does not mean they don't know. I have a dog I would NEVER punish. He is just too gentle. He is not confident about offering behaviours in the first place, so if I punish him I'm only going to hurt my ability to train new behaviours. Plus it's just not needed. He has a beautiful fast extinction curve and I've never seen anything spontaneously recover. Oh, except trying to convince us he's sleeping on the bed tonight.

To ban on the Schutzhund call him attack train is stupid pffffff, I laughing on that, but for Tom and Dick to train protection dog is should be banning for the Government is very danger if the training wrong. One factoring on the fighting drive defense drive on the switch is redirected aggression where dog is propeller wound up so tight he loosing focus on the target and he just wanting to have a biting. Clear head in the dog is genetic on full propeller, most dog dont having clarity on his head in the mind state he is working, so we use correction in the training to teach the dog and for using like a handbrake if he get it wrong to stop the biting physically if he loose is banana. Becuase is hard to get a perfect dog, he should have clarity on his head and he shouldnt do his banana, but he can and he does, so the training needing to accomodating for this is where the clicker cant doing the job like correction from the collar.

Joe

[Erny]

... if he loose his banana. Because is hard to get a perfect dog, he should have clarity on his head and he shouldn't do his banana

but I love the expression "loose his banana" . Thanks JoeK.

ETA: I'm not so sure about how confident I'd feel being in front of a protection dog knowing that the only thing between the dog's instinctual defence drive and my body being ripped was a "click" and a food treat. So I do think I see what you're saying, JoeK (I think) and tend to agree. But don't you think that protection training requires and has a different balance of drives than what we might generally see in a dog who is aggressing towards other dogs when out and about?

I do think that the careful use of a click and treat goes a way to training a dog who is known to be aggro to other dogs, that aggression is not intrinsic to his/her survival and that there is a behavioural response that is more advantageous. I think this is a place to start. I think every case is different but I do think that 'pack' approval AND disapproval goes a long way to helping rehabilitation, at least once the dog knows a behaviour that is more favourable.

Edited May 4, 2011 by Erny

[JoeK]

... if he loose his banana. Because is hard to get a perfect dog, he should have clarity on his head and he shouldn't do his banana

but I love the expression "loose his banana" . Thanks JoeK.

ETA: I'm not so sure about how confident I'd feel being in front of a protection dog knowing that the only thing between the dog's instinctual defence drive and my body being ripped was a "click" and a food treat. So I do think I see what you're saying, JoeK (I think) and tend to agree. But don't you think that protection training requires and has a different balance of drives than what we might generally see in a dog who is aggressing towards other dogs when out and about?

I do think that the careful use of a click and treat goes a way to training a dog who is known to be aggro to other dogs, that aggression is not intrinsic to his/her survival and that there is a behavioural response that is more advantageous. I think this is a place to start. I think every case is different but I do think that 'pack' approval AND disapproval goes a long way to helping rehabilitation, at least once the dog knows a behaviour that is more favourable.

Thank you Erny, some definitely loosing the banana

I am understanding very much on the reactive dog becuase often in the working dog for protection training the dog is actually fear biter they callling sharpness and civil drive. I prefer not to train this type of dog becuase they are not ideal in their head space and difficult to control, but they make a good guarding dog is why people use them of this temperament, so this dogs before the training is very reactive on the leash naturally like some of the pet dogs who do this. We have to training this dog not only to behave and not react, we also have to training him to react when we need him to work and switch him on and off and control his banana so he loosing it an the right time for protecting against genuine threat. So we have to have perfection in the leash control on this type of dog and he must learning what no is meaning becuase he saying in his head, can I rect, can I react and looking for the handler to tell him when and when he cant do this.

Joe

[Erny]

I am understanding very much on the reactive dog becuase often in the working dog for protection training the dog is actually fear biter they callling sharpness and civil drive. I prefer not to train this type of dog becuase they are not ideal in their head space ...

Yes - back in the days before Protection Training a dog came with all the terms and conditions that are now applied and make it difficult for anyone to work it (which IMO has lead to the advent of fearful dogs being put into protection roles, when they clearly should not be, because the reputable and great protection trainers just aren't out there as much now), the dog to be used, FIRST had to be well and thoroughly socialised to everything and everyone. Actually, "neutralised" would be the more appropriate term when it came to people, but in essence, the good protection dog had no fear, no hang ups, and was overall confident. I always felt quite safe around a well trained protection dog back in those days ...... provided I trusted the owner/handler .

When they went into "guard and hold" or went into "attack" it went with a command and the dog took that as a reward. The generally fearful dog we see these days, who aggresses towards other dogs and/or people, is responding mainly if not only to its fear. It is not thinking with its fore brain, it is reacting to the demands of its hind brain. As you say - it is not in a good head space and I completely agree that these dogs are not good examples of great protection dogs.

Edited May 5, 2011 by Erny