Leash Aggression / Frustration

[JoeK]

can some please explain how LAT exactly works??.

The aim is to reinforce being able to engage with the scary (or exciting) stuff without over-reacting. So what you do is reinforce calm behavior when looking at the scary or exciting thing. Using a clicker, you can mark the precise moment the dog looks at the scary thing, before they have a chance to get carried away. You need to begin at an appropriate distance. An appropriate distance could be 2m or 200m, you want to set the dog up for success so pick a distance that works.

I had a quick look on YouTube and couldn't find a great video (probably didn't look hard enough), but here is one that has a before and after:

Before:

After:

I thinking yes and no on the first video?. A dog behind a fence is not a real threat becuase he cant getting out and walking away for the distance can sometimes reiforcing in the dog that is a threat and we needing to run away is no good. If you just walking briskly past the fence a few times, little correction and no commanding if the dog reacts, he thinking ahhhh, this dog behind the fence is no problem is not scary afterall, so distance is not always best on the dogs learning, its best for the handler control but not always best for the dog.

Joe

[Aidan3]

I thinking yes and no on the first video?

They were before and after videos. That was the "before", the "after" looked pretty good so they figured something out.

[Kavik]

Had a very successful walk :D Walked Zoe my dog aggro dog, coming the opposite direction on same side of road were two dogs walked by one person who went off heir head at us. Zoe was a good girl :D and didn't react, I was able to reinforce several times (she looked at the dogs and back at me for click/treat). It DOES work! Though she is getting on in age now she is still sprightly and keen and fast in response, so the change is not her slowing down.

[Aidan3]

Had a very successful walk :D Walked Zoe my dog aggro dog, coming the opposite direction on same side of road were two dogs walked by one person who went off heir head at us. Zoe was a good girl and didn't react, I was able to reinforce several times (she looked at the dogs and back at me for click/treat). It DOES work! Though she is getting on in age now she is still sprightly and keen and fast in response, so the change is not her slowing down.

:D

[JoeK]

I thinking yes and no on the first video?

They were before and after videos. That was the "before", the "after" looked pretty good so they figured something out.

Still much distance on the after with constant feeding from the handler? The dog is learned to focus on the handler and eat, but has the dog learned to calm on his own, maybe, mabe not? In the Schutzhund training we having the traffic test where the dog is tied to a fence and the handler he walks away from the dog out of sight. The dog has to sit or stand and jogger go past, the dog walker and the bicycle and the dog is not allowing to reactivity. If he bark or jump around he fail, so we teach him calm without handler inputting to passing the test but the feeding and handler focus training for this doesn't work good for the dog to calm himself because in the test, is no handler there to feed him and focus.

Joe

[JoeK]

Had a very successful walk :D Walked Zoe my dog aggro dog, coming the opposite direction on same side of road were two dogs walked by one person who went off heir head at us. Zoe was a good girl :D and didn't react, I was able to reinforce several times (she looked at the dogs and back at me for click/treat). It DOES work! Though she is getting on in age now she is still sprightly and keen and fast in response, so the change is not her slowing down.

May I asking please, what happens if you tying your Zoey girl on the fence and walk away when the dogs passing? She stay calm or she reactive again, this is test for telling what is working and what is not in the dogs head if she get over the demon or she managing from the handler inputting?

Joe

[Kavik]

I am sure if I tied her up near other dogs and left (which I would NEVER do) that she would react. I never said she was cured. I never allow her to meet other dogs - not worth the stress. I will not put her in a situation that I don't think she can handle - I am teaching her to trust me and that I will not let her down, so that she can look at me instead of worrying about the other dog. She doesn't like other dogs - I've accepted that. All I want is to be able to walk her past other dogs without reacting. We are doing well considering I only started this method when she was 8 years old with a whole lifetime history of aggression towards other dogs. I have tried other methos and nothing else has worked as well or given me the same confidence in handling her as well as keeping her happy and keen to work with me around other dogs.

[JoeK]

I am sure if I tied her up near other dogs and left (which I would NEVER do) that she would react. I never said she was cured. I never allow her to meet other dogs - not worth the stress. I will not put her in a situation that I don't think she can handle - I am teaching her to trust me and that I will not let her down, so that she can look at me instead of worrying about the other dog. She doesn't like other dogs - I've accepted that. All I want is to be able to walk her past other dogs without reacting. We are doing well considering I only started this method when she was 8 years old with a whole lifetime history of aggression towards other dogs. I have tried other methos and nothing else has worked as well or given me the same confidence in handling her as well as keeping her happy and keen to work with me around other dogs.

Yes, thank you, I understand your situation, is good then to have improvement. Is differently on my background where we must cure the reactivity without handler present I am familiar and the focus exercising I am working out if is best way to cure dog for himself or best way to making the dog easier to handle him for the handler.

Joe

[Aidan3]

The dog is learned to focus on the handler and eat, but has the dog learned to calm on his own, maybe, mabe not?

The owner is happy, the dog is calm. If she had any competitive goals she would be able to start. If she just wanted to be able to walk her dog down the street, she can do that.

If he bark or jump around he fail, so we teach him calm without handler inputting to passing the test but the feeding and handler focus training for this doesn't work good for the dog to calm himself because in the test, is no handler there to feed him and focus.

Well I'm sure you've seen plenty of dogs trained with food compete without food so I'm not sure what your point is?

[Aidan3]

this is test for telling what is working and what is not in the dogs head

Not really, you can make a dog too frightened of punishment to react. Some people don't have a problem with that but I do. It gives a false impression of safety and the dog doesn't feel any better - only the owner does.

I'm not saying it's a bad test or that punishment doesn't have a place, but as a test on it's own it tells you nothing and doesn't impress me.

Tell me, JoeK, in the "after" video above, what does the dog's body language tell you?

[JoeK]

The dog is learned to focus on the handler and eat, but has the dog learned to calm on his own, maybe, mabe not?

The owner is happy, the dog is calm. If she had any competitive goals she would be able to start. If she just wanted to be able to walk her dog down the street, she can do that.

If he bark or jump around he fail, so we teach him calm without handler inputting to passing the test but the feeding and handler focus training for this doesn't work good for the dog to calm himself because in the test, is no handler there to feed him and focus.

Well I'm sure you've seen plenty of dogs trained with food compete without food so I'm not sure what your point is?

Probably not explaining myself well, my apology please. I speak on the goal with reactivity in the dog that at some stage he must do the traffic testing which means he must behaving with handler hiding from is view, yes? Now, if the basic of the training relay on the dog focus to the handler is a problem when the handler hide a way for the testing because the dog has no handler to his focusing, so we train reactivity out a different way so the dog learn reaction is bad, not so he learn to focus to the handler when he feel like reaction because what happens in the traffic testing with this dogs training to focus to handler is they fail testing and bouncing and barking like the pork chop again when the handler hiding, so it didnt fixing the dog to the actual reactivity and only providing alternating behavior.

Is like the focus exercising to the handler masking over the problem for easy handling and yes for nicer walking past the dog I understand, but is not fixing the desire for reaction I am not seeing that.

Joe

[Aidan3]

not so he learn to focus to the handler when he feel like reaction

But the dog is focusing on the other dog - that is the whole point of LAT.

I'll explain the clicker for you - it provides a bridge between response and reinforcer. So the dog looks at the other dog without reacting, the handler clicks the clicker to reinforce looking at the other dog without reacting, then because the click promises a reward, the dog looks back to the handler.

What you get more of is the dog looking at the other dog without barking. Not "looking at the handler" That's just what happens after you click, it isn't what makes you click.

Tell me, if you were going to teach this with corrections, exactly what would you be teaching the dog? Don't say "to not bark" or "to not desire to react" because I want to know what you are teaching the dog to do. When they started putting rats in electrified cages to investigate what happens with punishment, some bright spark noticed that the rats didn't cease to exist when they were punished so the question was raised "what are they doing instead of behaviour X?" It turns out they were doing a whole lot of "freezing" which is their "spezies spezifisch sicherheit reaction". This was what happened when they were shocked, and then the shock got turned off, so that's what they did instead of behaviour X.

Of course, dog trainers would never do that, right? It would look ugly if we had dogs cringing and flinching, so we're a little bit more sophisticated. But do you get what I'm asking? What is the dog doing if he isn't reacting?

but is not fixing the desire for reaction I am not seeing that.

Well I asked you about the dog's body language and you've not responded to that, so I'm wondering what you "aren't seeing" that makes you think the "wunsch für aggression" is still there? If he isn't reacting, why do you think he "desires to react"? Is it his body zunge? If it's body language, please be specific, what are you seeing?

[JoeK]

not so he learn to focus to the handler when he feel like reaction

But the dog is focusing on the other dog - that is the whole point of LAT.

I'll explain the clicker for you - it provides a bridge between response and reinforcer. So the dog looks at the other dog without reacting, the handler clicks the clicker to reinforce looking at the other dog without reacting, then because the click promises a reward, the dog looks back to the handler.

What you get more of is the dog looking at the other dog without barking. Not "looking at the handler" That's just what happens after you click, it isn't what makes you click.

Tell me, if you were going to teach this with corrections, exactly what would you be teaching the dog? Don't say "to not bark" or "to not desire to react" because I want to know what you are teaching the dog to do. When they started putting rats in electrified cages to investigate what happens with punishment, some bright spark noticed that the rats didn't cease to exist when they were punished so the question was raised "what are they doing instead of behaviour X?" It turns out they were doing a whole lot of "freezing" which is their "spezies spezifisch sicherheit reaction". This was what happened when they were shocked, and then the shock got turned off, so that's what they did instead of behaviour X.

Of course, dog trainers would never do that, right? It would look ugly if we had dogs cringing and flinching, so we're a little bit more sophisticated. But do you get what I'm asking? What is the dog doing if he isn't reacting?

but is not fixing the desire for reaction I am not seeing that.

Well I asked you about the dog's body language and you've not responded to that, so I'm wondering what you "aren't seeing" that makes you think the "wunsch für aggression" is still there? If he isn't reacting, why do you think he "desires to react"? Is it his body zunge? If it's body language, please be specific, what are you seeing?

Firstly the the dog needs the basic leash manners to begin without distracting from another dog, I am meaning the dog can walk nicely along side, loose leash no pulling and sniffing and the dog will stop and sit on command is what I do first. Until the dog display this properly behavior reliable, hes not ready for the distraction. What happening is many peoples dog doesnt walk nicely to begin and they throw in the deepen end with distraction before basics establishment is done. Is no good becuase basics controlling on the leash is not in the dog and they expecting too much in the distraction. If the dog cannot be walking nicely without distraction, there is no chance the handler can control when the big distraction arising, yes?.

My dogs I training all done on the leash and have learned the leash control from the beginning so if I have reactive dog who misbehaves seeing another dog the first time he does this is NO and little pull up on the leash and when he behave to my command NO, is good boy and give him a rub is what I do. If you training a dog with developed behavior and is poor, it may be different process depending, but from beginning of the training it goes like this and the dog he learn to listen to me and NO command is wrong behavior for him. The dog he learn from correction to trust is handler that command NO for his benefit to avoid correction and by obeying the handler save him is how it works on the dog.

I cant speak on the rats I am not training rats but dogs which matters most, yes.

I am telling the biggest falling out from the dog I see is not from correction for disobey, is from obeying command and suffering, like to command jump and the dog he stuffs it up and hurt himself, he then don't trust you what you commanding is good for him. He got to know that whatever you command is good and NO is bad and he understanding of the rules.

The clicker and treating is good for the timid dog to gaining confidence, but the reactive with confidence to front the demon in aggression my opinion must be suppressing clearly to the dog this behavior is not happening and is bad. Both reacting from fear, one run, one attack but is no good to applying methods for the runner on the dog in defence drive is different thing. It depends what the dog does in fear and if reacting, the reacting has to cause the dog never to win, he must loose always for random reaction.

Joe

Edited April 30, 2011 by JoeK

[Aidan3]

The clicker and treating is good for the timid dog to gaining confidence, but the reactive with confidence to front the demon in aggression my opinion must be suppressing clearly to the dog this behavior is not happening and is bad.

Why "must" and "bad"? Is there a reason? Or is this a personal opinion?

(Ich bin schwierigkeiten verständnis dieser absatz. Vielleicht können wir diese diskussion fortsetzen mit einer ziege in Deutsch? или на русском языке, где многое lolz будет? )

[JoeK]

The clicker and treating is good for the timid dog to gaining confidence, but the reactive with confidence to front the demon in aggression my opinion must be suppressing clearly to the dog this behavior is not happening and is bad.

Why "must" and "bad"? Is there a reason? Or is this a personal opinion?

(Ich bin schwierigkeiten verständnis dieser absatz. Vielleicht können wir diese diskussion fortsetzen mit einer ziege in Deutsch? или на русском языке, где многое lolz будет? ;) )

Vielleicht werden sie geärgert, Deutsch auf dem Ausschuss sprechend Aidan2

When handling and train the dog in my experiences with the working dog is high in social aggression which I have working on many years, is dangerous dog when he out of control because he biting people in active aggression and very strong dog to hold im back, so we cant have situation where the dog he doesnt know the ruling of what he does you see?. The reactive pet is the same in the principal, maybe not having the civil nerving to actually bite and attack as the working dog, but he respond to the same training.

Some people saying to me Joe, my dog just have a lunge and bark and is not attacking to bite so we don't needing to apply the training of a dangerous dog, but is the same thing just is not as severity or danger, but the training to stop this reacting working the same because the cause of reaction is the same from the working dog and the pet dog. Becuase the pet dog probably wont bite in my opinion, he still must learn the rule that aggression is bad and he don't do this behavior is not acceptable.

Joe

[Kavik]

double post

Edited May 1, 2011 by Kavik

[Kavik]

The clicker and treating is good for the timid dog to gaining confidence, but the reactive with confidence to front the demon in aggression my opinion must be suppressing clearly to the dog this behavior is not happening and is bad.

Why "must" and "bad"? Is there a reason? Or is this a personal opinion?

(Ich bin schwierigkeiten verständnis dieser absatz. Vielleicht können wir diese diskussion fortsetzen mit einer ziege in Deutsch? или на русском языке, где многое lolz будет? ;) )

Vielleicht werden sie geärgert, Deutsch auf dem Ausschuss sprechend Aidan2

When handling and train the dog in my experiences with the working dog is high in social aggression which I have working on many years, is dangerous dog when he out of control because he biting people in active aggression and very strong dog to hold im back, so we cant have situation where the dog he doesnt know the ruling of what he does you see?. The reactive pet is the same in the principal, maybe not having the civil nerving to actually bite and attack as the working dog, but he respond to the same training.

Some people saying to me Joe, my dog just have a lunge and bark and is not attacking to bite so we don't needing to apply the training of a dangerous dog, but is the same thing just is not as severity or danger, but the training to stop this reacting working the same because the cause of reaction is the same from the working dog and the pet dog. Becuase the pet dog probably wont bite in my opinion, he still must learn the rule that aggression is bad and he don't do this behavior is not acceptable.

Joe

What if the cause of the reaction is NOT the same? My girl does not have good nerves and I am fairly sure her aggression is based on fear. She has high drives but not a very stable temperament. She taught me a lot about what I DON'T want in a performance dog as well as what I do want.

[Aidan3]

When handling and train the dog in my experiences with the working dog is high in social aggression which I have working on many years, is dangerous dog when he out of control because he biting people in active aggression and very strong dog to hold im back, so we cant have situation where the dog he doesnt know the ruling of what he does you see?

I don't know that you've really answered my question though, JoeK. Why are you assuming that the dog, correctly conditioned, with clicker training does not know the ruling of what he does? Why is this so?

I can understand healthy skepticism. If you've not seen it yourself, why should you believe anyone who says otherwise? I wouldn't. The burden of proof is upon those who make the claim. But you seem to have a concrete reason, not just disbelief, but a belief in some other principle that dictates the necessity of compulsion. This is what I'm interested in, where does this come from? Or am I wrong, and you are simply skeptical?

[JoeK]

The clicker and treating is good for the timid dog to gaining confidence, but the reactive with confidence to front the demon in aggression my opinion must be suppressing clearly to the dog this behavior is not happening and is bad.

Why "must" and "bad"? Is there a reason? Or is this a personal opinion?

(Ich bin schwierigkeiten verständnis dieser absatz. Vielleicht können wir diese diskussion fortsetzen mit einer ziege in Deutsch? или на русском языке, где многое lolz будет? ;) )

Vielleicht werden sie geärgert, Deutsch auf dem Ausschuss sprechend Aidan2

When handling and train the dog in my experiences with the working dog is high in social aggression which I have working on many years, is dangerous dog when he out of control because he biting people in active aggression and very strong dog to hold im back, so we cant have situation where the dog he doesnt know the ruling of what he does you see?. The reactive pet is the same in the principal, maybe not having the civil nerving to actually bite and attack as the working dog, but he respond to the same training.

Some people saying to me Joe, my dog just have a lunge and bark and is not attacking to bite so we don't needing to apply the training of a dangerous dog, but is the same thing just is not as severity or danger, but the training to stop this reacting working the same because the cause of reaction is the same from the working dog and the pet dog. Becuase the pet dog probably wont bite in my opinion, he still must learn the rule that aggression is bad and he don't do this behavior is not acceptable.

Joe

What if the cause of the reaction is NOT the same? My girl does not have good nerves and I am fairly sure her aggression is based on fear. She has high drives but not a very stable temperament. She taught me a lot about what I DON'T want in a performance dog as well as what I do want.

Is good questioning Kavik thanking you.

You can see often the breeder claiming the working dog he breed has sharpness and civil aggression and he say he breed tough dogs of strong nerve. Sharpness is fear and civil aggression is the dog has the drive to get in first before something get him and when you training this dog to win he become confident protection dog easy, but he is hard to handle and needing to learn the rules of the game. Nerve in the dog is the resistance to shutting down from bad experience so a dog of weak nerve if he fight and someone kick im hard he goes into water and run away, loose is nerve to fight is way of explaining the nerve of the dog, but weak nerve can also cause sharpness which is how fast a dog reacting aggressively to a situation. Weak nerve dog can snap at a child for stepping in his tail, hard nerve dog needing severe pain to react for comparison. Dogs that getting snappy and growl if you touch his feet or tail is weak nerve in the dog. Strong nerve dog doesnt care or react and doesnt shut down easy from bad experience and recover fast. Is easy testing the nerve of the dog to see how fast he take a treat and eat after hes winding up is what I testing for the nerve.

Mostly in the reactivity is fear on most dogs is true and many ways can be overcome the fear to settle down, but is my opinion the dog must learning that reacting is no good and not fixing his problem and the nerve on the dog is what I determine for the best method to train. If the dog has good recovery on the nerve, I use corrections on the dog, if is poor or shutting down, I using gradual pressure with a prong or slipping collar and reward, but always teaching him that reaction is not acceptable, but if the dog is not learning the reacting is bad, hes always keeps reacting up his sleeve and when he has reacting up his sleeve, he will react at the wrong time one day could be bad outcome. So, I like better that the dog loosing reacting from the sleeve for nicer dog and more better for the trustworthy.

Joe

[corvus]

You know, somehow if I'm scared, someone saying to me "being scared is stupid and wrong" doesn't make me feel less scared. Why do you suppose that is?