Leash Aggression / Frustration

[kiesha09]

I have had an issues with my girl when on lead for a while now and haven't really done anything about it. But I have come to realise that its impacting on our training in other ways so need to work on this first.

Basically if she sees another dog or hears one behind a fence she starts lungeing and barking and her arousal level goes through the roof. At this point she won't take treats or pay any attention to me. Whilst she looks aggressive in this state I'm know for a fact she would not attack the other dog but its more a frustration that she can't meet them or get to them. This article explains it well I think.

So the behaviour I have is barking/lunging on walks near other dogs on leads or behind fences but the behaviour I want is to walk by these things on a nice loose lead paying attention to me (although am happy if she looks at the other dogs but will check back with me). BUT how do I train the behaviour I want?

The article I linked to has some good tips and I'm going to work through them. But how do I set this up as a training exercise with dogs behind fences?

Another point I should note is that if we are at training on an oval and there are other dogs walking around on lead she is fine - no lead aggression/frustration there. How can I build on this so that out on walks on the street she is fine also. Do you think that I have built so much value for 'me' at training that she overcomes the other distractions but on walks around the streets the value for me isn't there?

Any ideas or suggestions?

[Kavik]

Have you done any training to teach her to focus on you?

I use the principles outlined in the book Click to Calm: Healing the Aggressive Dog. It works just as well with reactivity (which is what your girl is showing). I start with clicking for showing attention to me when there are no distractions around, and when this response is automatic (she will do it on her own, no prompting from me, no luring etc) I take it on the road with the distraction at a distance (I started with other dogs across the road, so that there was no way the other dog could possibly meet my dog, and I could focus on my dog's response instead of worrying about what might happen). Even though my dog still reacted at first, I clicked/treated when she voluntarily gave me her attention after looking at the other dog. Eventually she would look at the other dog, then look back at me without reacting to the other dog. I then closed the distance, doing this with dogs on the same side of the road but giving as much distance as possible (going into driveways if necessary). Etc.

Edited April 28, 2011 by Kavik

[corvus]

I had the problem with Kivi when he was younger. He would get really excited when he saw another dog and start bouncing up and down and lunging and because he couldn't get anywhere he'd start barking as well. For him to actually behave aggressively towards another dog is completely unheard of and would make me think he had some medical problem. He's just not like that.

Anyway, I was waiting him out and he would offer a sit and once he'd got that far I could call him and give him a treat. He was offering sits earlier and earlier, but still anticipating the release. At this point I got the Control Unleashed book and I started using Look At That. It worked pretty much instantly. I did the same thing with Erik, who is more prone to going over threshold. He is going through a phase at the moment where he just barks at another dog on leash, presumably because he can't go and greet. I'm not really sure why he's doing it. He hasn't been allowed off leash for the last couple of weeks due to an eye injury, so maybe that's why he's been carrying on. Anyway, LAT is great, but if he barks in between we're just too close. I move back a few metres and often that's enough. If not, back again. I think the trick with LAT and similar strategies is to get in as early as possible. It's difficult on the street because often the first you know about a dog is they are already within your dog's critical distance, but you can always back up. Or wait them out.

The other thing that might help is practising LAT on the oval during training first. I'm thinking it might make it easier once on the street.

[poodlefan]

Get some experienced professional help. There are a range of reasons for leash aggression and some of them have quite a bit to do with the owner.

Someone who can come in, watch what's happening and help you train a solution is going to accelerate any remedial training.

I would also recommend you read the article "Handling On Leash Aggression" here

Edited April 28, 2011 by poodlefan

[kiesha09]

I have done focus training with her before however this has never progressed to out on walks because as soon as she hears or sees a dog on walks she is WAAAAYYY past the threshold. It may take her 10 minutes to calm back down to take treats.

I know that I have to move her away until she is sub threshold but sometimes this seems impossible when its a dog that has barked 3 streets over starts her reactivity.

Kavik the method you suggest sounds great in theory and what I have tried so far. It's quite similar to the look at that game really that Corvus suggested too. But how did you set this up? Secondly, I need to work the steps inbetween focusing on me automatically and then focusing on me when there is another dog present (even if it is accross the road as that would still be too close). At this stage she has absolutely fabulous focus on me when there are no other dogs but bring a dog into the picture and it's all gone (this includes a dog barking 3 streets away).

I have read the article you posted before Poodlefan and it is a good article. I completely can relate to the impact of body language and I am sure mine contributes to the problem. However, I still struggle with the mechanics of some of the suggestions. I am willing to bet alot of money that my girl would not respond to the cue to sit in order for the lead to be loose in the presence of another dog on the street. I have also done as the article suggested and tried to change her body posture by moving her into a sit and used calm stroking techniques etc. but there is no way she will sit unless I held her there (which is increasing her frustration). I need to bring her arousal and frustration level way down.

I also have the problem that I don't want her to be practicing this behaviour anymore (its already gone on long enough) but really how do I exercise her then?

[wuffles]

I feel for you as I am having a similar issue. One of my dogs has become leash reactive and the other feeds off him and becomes anxious. I am seeing a behaviourist this weekend so fingers crossed, and I will let you know the outcome :D

[kiesha09]

Good luck Wuffles. I would love to get someone out to assess the situation but unfortunately for the next month or so money is going to prevent that from happening.

[megan_]

Start practising "Look at That" at home. Hundreds of times. Let it become conditioned. This will help your dog respond in the right way when you say LAT when out and about.

If you try to use it once your dog has reacted it is too late. You have to do it the millisecond they start to look (before they have reacted). If they've already reacted, I wouldn't say "Look at that" unless you're in an emergency situation (because you'll be conditioning the reaction).

ETA: It took me a while to get it right. Don't be stingey on the LAT's and treats!

Edit to the edit: I think tone of voice plays a big part to. When you smile and speak in a sing-songy voice, it is hard to tense up. I say "Look at that!" in a very happy, excited voice. If something else happens (eg something falls down and bangs, someone screams, I get a fright when someone walks around the corner) I say "oh, hello!" in a super-happy voice and my girl responds accordingly. Singing or humming a tune helps you relax too. Of course, I look like the local mental patient but I'll take that over a dog going nuts at the end of the leash!

Edited April 28, 2011 by megan_

[kiesha09]

This may be a dumb question but when playing the LAT game at home, what do I get her to look at? Can it be anything? I guess it's all about teaching her to look at 'something'. Do you point to the thing you want her to look at?

[megan_]

She chooses what to look at - not you. She looks at the TV, she looks outside, anything really. So every time she looks at something, play away.

[corvus]

Maybe you should go lurk on the Control Unleashed Yahoo group? I love it! Heaps of experienced trainers and lots of practical information in how to actually apply the CU techniques. There's been some interesting talk about rewarding taking a breath to help calm. I want to buy the dvds, now, as apparently I missed some good stuff that's not in the book.

When Kivi was going through it he would zone out when he heard a dog barking as well. I never really sought more distance because he was so eager he seemed to find it punishing and therefore even more frustrating. But waiting Kivi out didn't take long. He could only keep something like that up for about a minute. Erik is a whole different ball game. He can keep it up for long enough for me to think he's going to go on forever, and just when you think he's lost it he somehow loses it more. The noises he makes when he's frustrated, you'd think someone were torturing him. With Erik he's often kind of relieved to get a bit of distance. I think it just takes the intensity out of it a little. What I'm trying to say is distance may be a great way to lower arousal, but it's not the only way, and maybe it's not suitable for your specific problem. The last thing you want to do is make her more frustrated, right? Have you ever tried just holding still and waiting to see how long it takes her to start thinking again?

[Jigsaw]

In my own area I have within 100m a house on a corner with territorial barking dogs within it so I feel your pain! IMO this is sometimes harder than dealing with dogs on a training ground barking and reacting, where the dogs etc can be seen and you can increase your distance rapidly. When you're on a walk you sometimes don't know that there is a dog in the backyard and then suddenly there is this frenzy of barking at the fence and you may only be a couple of metres away!

With my own dog who is not leash aggressive (nor generally a puller) but gets aroused and starts to whine and become anxious when dogs start to bark behind a fence, I have started in my own driveway (actually I started in the garage with the door up), building up the value of a loose leash and gradually extending the distance we are walking within our own street. At the moment we cross the road a little way up and walk a little distance in the opposite direction from the barking dogs. Lots and lots of reinforcement for redirecting to me for various sights and sounds. We're doing it slowly and taking our time. We are also practising chilling out in various places like our front verandah and I hope to work up to some shopping centres shortly. I do find even 10 minutes of this sort of activity can wear her out mentally as well as lots of training and games in the backyard.

The CU Yahoo group has some great ideas and explanations on LAT and relaxation. Getting someone in to observe you and give you some feedback about your technique, your own body language and what's happening at the other end of the leash is also a good idea. (Which I have done with some trainer friends.)

[Kavik]

At the beginning Zoe would react to the dogs across the street. When she stopped reacting and looked back at me (which she would do eventually) I would click/treat. I know that sounds counter intuitive, but it is laid out in the book. Good timing is important, any period of non reactivity is rewarded ( the book from memory also suggests rewarding less intensity too). The periods of reactivity grew shorter and less intense, and I started to have a larger window for reinforcement.

[kiesha09]

Thanks for all the replies, there has been some great information posted!

Maybe you should go lurk on the Control Unleashed Yahoo group? I love it! Heaps of experienced trainers and lots of practical information in how to actually apply the CU techniques. There's been some interesting talk about rewarding taking a breath to help calm. I want to buy the dvds, now, as apparently I missed some good stuff that's not in the book.

When Kivi was going through it he would zone out when he heard a dog barking as well. I never really sought more distance because he was so eager he seemed to find it punishing and therefore even more frustrating. But waiting Kivi out didn't take long. He could only keep something like that up for about a minute. Erik is a whole different ball game. He can keep it up for long enough for me to think he's going to go on forever, and just when you think he's lost it he somehow loses it more. The noises he makes when he's frustrated, you'd think someone were torturing him. With Erik he's often kind of relieved to get a bit of distance. I think it just takes the intensity out of it a little. What I'm trying to say is distance may be a great way to lower arousal, but it's not the only way, and maybe it's not suitable for your specific problem. The last thing you want to do is make her more frustrated, right? Have you ever tried just holding still and waiting to see how long it takes her to start thinking again?

Great idea about the Control Unleashed yahoo group. I have the CU book but I should really read it again.

The point in bold about not seeking more distance could be exactly what is going on here. To get the distance at the moment is like trying to drag a freight train backwards. All she wants is to be able to see the other dog (and greet them too). But then what you say about Erik is also true for my girl - waiting her out to come down again after a 'reactive episode' can take what feels like forever. If we're on a walk and she sees a dog in the first 5 minutes then she could be over aroused for the rest of the 40 minute walk.

The other day I wanted to do some training out the front of my house so walked out the front door and a guy with two malamutes walked past. Well needless to say Kiesha lost her mind so I just stood there. 20 minutes later she still wouldn't give me her focus because she was still looking for those big hairy dogs that walked past. So got a half hearted nose touch, a barely there pull on the tug and left it at that.

In my own area I have within 100m a house on a corner with territorial barking dogs within it so I feel your pain! IMO this is sometimes harder than dealing with dogs on a training ground barking and reacting, where the dogs etc can be seen and you can increase your distance rapidly. When you're on a walk you sometimes don't know that there is a dog in the backyard and then suddenly there is this frenzy of barking at the fence and you may only be a couple of metres away!

With my own dog who is not leash aggressive (nor generally a puller) but gets aroused and starts to whine and become anxious when dogs start to bark behind a fence, I have started in my own driveway (actually I started in the garage with the door up), building up the value of a loose leash and gradually extending the distance we are walking within our own street. At the moment we cross the road a little way up and walk a little distance in the opposite direction from the barking dogs. Lots and lots of reinforcement for redirecting to me for various sights and sounds. We're doing it slowly and taking our time. We are also practising chilling out in various places like our front verandah and I hope to work up to some shopping centres shortly. I do find even 10 minutes of this sort of activity can wear her out mentally as well as lots of training and games in the backyard.

The CU Yahoo group has some great ideas and explanations on LAT and relaxation. Getting someone in to observe you and give you some feedback about your technique, your own body language and what's happening at the other end of the leash is also a good idea. (Which I have done with some trainer friends.)

I definately think that I need to build value for a loose leash in all levels of distractions including barking dogs. I just struggle with how I can make sure she gets enough exercise and do this at the same time?

At the beginning Zoe would react to the dogs across the street. When she stopped reacting and looked back at me (which she would do eventually) I would click/treat. I know that sounds counter intuitive, but it is laid out in the book. Good timing is important, any period of non reactivity is rewarded ( the book from memory also suggests rewarding less intensity too). The periods of reactivity grew shorter and less intense, and I started to have a larger window for reinforcement.

Currently I can't get her to look at me in 20 minutes of reactivity (however she checks in all the time on walks if she hasn't seen a dog) so it doesn't give me a very big reinforcement window. I do however, have a party when she does look at me.

What can I do about the dogs behind fences that she can't see? This all started because a dog rushed at a fence and barked scaring me, my other dog and of course kiesha. I know she is worried about these dogs and will often jump up to fences to see if she can see over it.

[poodlefan]

Currently I can't get her to look at me in 20 minutes of reactivity (however she checks in all the time on walks if she hasn't seen a dog) so it doesn't give me a very big reinforcement window. I do however, have a party when she does look at me.

What can I do about the dogs behind fences that she can't see? This all started because a dog rushed at a fence and barked scaring me, my other dog and of course kiesha. I know she is worried about these dogs and will often jump up to fences to see if she can see over it.

All of this suggests to me that you need professional help with a desensitising program.

I also think you should consider that you're getting a fear reaction, not a frustration one. Get someone in to help you. If you're starting with the wrong analysis of what you're dealing with, you're not going to get any improvement.

Corvus:

With Erik he's often kind of relieved to get a bit of distance. I think it just takes the intensity out of it a little. What I'm trying to say is distance may be a great way to lower arousal, but it's not the only way, and maybe it's not suitable for your specific problem.

Distance is also a method of lowering threat.

Edited April 29, 2011 by poodlefan

[Nekhbet]

Contact Mark Singer

you could have this dog figuired completely wrong, sometimes moving the dog away to what you think is the threshold distance can be the wrong thing to do. Get Mark to come and give you at least a good base line, he also knows about working in drive if that is what you want to do.

[corvus]

If we're on a walk and she sees a dog in the first 5 minutes then she could be over aroused for the rest of the 40 minute walk.

Erik used to be like this when he was younger. I did so much work with him teaching him to calm down. It took a long time and a lot of practice, but I have whittled it down to a few minutes, now. Probably largely helped by the fact he's nearly 2 and is finally maturing. I'd like to think all that work achieved something, but maybe he just grew up. Anyway, in case it did help, I used massage, a Thundershirt, and doing quiet things like giving a paw or targeting while he was in a down. Yesterday he was at the vets and the waiting room was packed with dogs and cats. He was obviously aroused by this, but chose to lie down and watch alertly rather than start barking at everything, which he would have done a couple of months ago. These latest improvements have coincided with me doing Karen Overall's Relaxation Protocol with him, but again, might be just maturity.

Currently I can't get her to look at me in 20 minutes of reactivity (however she checks in all the time on walks if she hasn't seen a dog) so it doesn't give me a very big reinforcement window. I do however, have a party when she does look at me.

What can I do about the dogs behind fences that she can't see? This all started because a dog rushed at a fence and barked scaring me, my other dog and of course kiesha. I know she is worried about these dogs and will often jump up to fences to see if she can see over it.

I think you should be able to improve on that 20 minutes with lots of conditioning. My dogs are childs play next to some of the dogs CU has helped.

Wish I knew what to do about dogs behind fences! I just avoid them. They scare the bejesus out of me. If I get to know where they are I can cross the road before we get there, but usually by then my dogs have also learnt where they are and are looking for them. I'm not a fan of working them through it while the other dog has a meltdown behind the fence. I feel like it's not very fair on that dog. Or the neighbours. Some people don't understand what you're trying to do and think you're being provocative. My parents have a neighbour who has lost touch of reality over the dog issue. He thinks my parents deliberately rile up his dog. As if!

[Nekhbet]

Wish I knew what to do about dogs behind fences! I just avoid them. They scare the bejesus out of me. If I get to know where they are I can cross the road before we get there, but usually by then my dogs have also learnt where they are and are looking for them. I'm not a fan of working them through it while the other dog has a meltdown behind the fence. I feel like it's not very fair on that dog. Or the neighbours. Some people don't understand what you're trying to do and think you're being provocative. My parents have a neighbour who has lost touch of reality over the dog issue. He thinks my parents deliberately rile up his dog. As if!

you do realise that if your dog remains calm 99% of the time the dog behind the fence will stop it's behaviour too when there's no reaction. Oh wait, it's just easier to avoid things instead of face difficult behaviours head on! Life's not fair. The more you avoid things, the harder life actually is for a dog in the long term.

Erik used to be like this when he was younger. I did so much work with him teaching him to calm down. It took a long time and a lot of practice, but I have whittled it down to a few minutes, now.

Why did that take you 2 years to do? Why is he not ignoring them on command by now?

Edited April 30, 2011 by Nekhbet

[BMAK]

can some please explain how LAT exactly works??

i know sometimes when i play similar games like " are you ready" they look at me, but get very excited for what is about to happen.

[Aidan3]

can some please explain how LAT exactly works??.

The aim is to reinforce being able to engage with the scary (or exciting) stuff without over-reacting. So what you do is reinforce calm behavior when looking at the scary or exciting thing. Using a clicker, you can mark the precise moment the dog looks at the scary thing, before they have a chance to get carried away. You need to begin at an appropriate distance. An appropriate distance could be 2m or 200m, you want to set the dog up for success so pick a distance that works.

I had a quick look on YouTube and couldn't find a great video (probably didn't look hard enough), but here is one that has a before and after:

Before:

After: