Google Abandons Motto: ‘don’t Be Evil’

[Staranais]

I don't know if this type of game would encourage anyone to get involved in dog fighting that wouldn't get involved anyway. I don't know if anyone has studied the risk of that happening. But it worries me that it might.

I also don't like the video games that involve the player shooting or beating random people, by the way. But this seems different to me, in that I think most people know that killing random strangers is not condoned by society and that murderers are likely to be found & severely punished. Whereas large segments of society still seem to view dog fighting as no big deal (witness all the comments on the net after the Michael Vick incident, where so many people couldn't understand the uproar about what he'd done). I hate to see anything that could normalise the idea of dog fighting further, since it already seems that many people regard it as normal and OK.

[raz]

I hate to see anything that could normalise the idea of dog fighting further, since it already seems that many people regard it as normal and OK.

Who are the normal people who regard dog fighting as OK? If I liked computer games I'd probably be interested in this one because the player has to bring up a dog, feed it, train it bla bla but it wouldnt turn me into a raging crim who wants to do that in real life and really - I asked this before - would a slimey little fighter prick be interested in a game like this? Probably not. They're too busy throwing their dogs in a pit. I still dont get it and have been having a discussion all afternoon with OH. Why is it OK to have some computer games and not others?

Who gives a crap whether Vick is outraged??? That's the worst headline I've ever seen. Where do you people find this crap?

[Staranais]

After the Michael Vick arrest & case, I was appalled by the number of people posting on internet forums & commenting on news articles who seemed to think that what he did was OK, or at least that it was trivial and unimportant. I don't know if you'd call them normal people or not, since I have no idea who they were, but I was shocked by their number & their opinions.

So I don't think it's OK to have a game that glorifies or trivialises dog fighting, especially when a significant minority of people clearly still think it is an acceptable thing to do. You don't need to agree with my opinions, of course, but I simply can't think of a clearer way to explain them than that, so I won't post any further.

[Aidan3]

Who are the normal people who regard dog fighting as OK?

In some parts of the US and some other countries, there are normal people who don't have a problem with dog fighting. I think we tend to assume that only deranged individuals could be involved with dog fighting, but unfortunately this is not the case. The only thing stopping some people from dog fighting is that it's not socially acceptable or legal.

The dogs want to fight, don't they? They see another dog, they want to fight, they get all geed up. Who are we to say they shouldn't do it if they want to? What's stopping us? A few bleeding heart lefties? Those pussies get upset about computer games!

If I liked computer games I'd probably be interested in this one because the player has to bring up a dog, feed it, train it bla bla but it wouldnt turn me into a raging crim who wants to do that in real life

No-one is making any claims that (a) all individuals who play violent computer games become violent or (b) that violent computer games will cause violent behaviour regardless of any other factor.

But imagine you're someone who doesn't really see the problem with dog fighting and thinks it's just a bunch of hooey dreamed up by bleeding heart lefties to make them feel better for not being able to fix the more serious problems that plague society. This game comes out and no-one says anything. No-one has this discussion. Michael Vick doesn't say anything. Where in the range of social acceptance does dog fighting sit if that was the case?

[raz]

No keep posting, Star. It's interesting. I dont know anyone who thinks shoving dogs in a pit is a normal thing to do but I know people who play computer games and they'd never subject an animal to violence, so I keep asking this - why is a particular App about dogs bad and gets the headline about that idiot Vicks when plenty of other games are available that get the player to chop someone into little pieces and dont raise an eyebrow?

Seems like a warrior bid between two competing companies if you ask me.

[Aidan3]

when plenty of other games are available that get the player to chop someone into little pieces and dont raise an eyebrow?

They do, they did, and they probably always will! But there are lots of reasons why people don't go and chop people up into little pieces. Dogs don't have the same protection.

You can bet if this were a game that involved child exploitation there would be even more of a ruckus, which raises even more questions. It would only be a game, wouldn't it? It wouldn't really hurt anyone, would it? What could be wrong with people trading simulated child exploitation material?

[raz]

I know I know. Not trying to have an argy with you - I'm just interested why this got a story and ofcourse it's going to raise eyebrows on a dog forum but really, the argy that it will turn people into moron pit fighters is a bit rich. I still ask - who are the 'researchers'? My fave uncle is a prof of psych so I'd like to throw the idea at him. He knows I'm a slasher fan girl and sure as shit doesnt think I'm going to carve anyone up any time soon

[Aidan3]

I know I know. Not trying to have an argy with you -

I know, that's understood :D

I still ask - who are the 'researchers'? My fave uncle is a prof of psych so I'd like to throw the idea at him. He knows I'm a slasher fan girl and sure as shit doesnt think I'm going to carve anyone up any time soon

Anderson is the most cited researcher in this field, the link I posted earlier (in response to Hardy's Angel) would give you a good overview to open a discussion with him. There is also a related body of research into violent television and movies, there's a good overview here: http://www.lionlamb.org/research_articles/01C392.pdf It's really not as simple as watching slasher flicks and turning into Jigsaw (apologies to DOLer, "Jigsaw"), which is why he's probably not worried about you. If you had 4 year old kids watching slasher flicks I'm sure he would have some concerns though! For many reasons... don't do that

[raz]

If you had 4 year old kids watching slasher flicks I'm sure he would have some concerns though! For many reasons... don't do that

:D Dont worry about that. If I had a 4 year old kid he'd be watching Bugs Bunny and Road Runner.

Thanks Aidan - will check out the linkies.

[Aidan3]

If you had 4 year old kids watching slasher flicks I'm sure he would have some concerns though! For many reasons... don't do that

Dont worry about that. If I had a 4 year old kid he'd be watching Bugs Bunny and Road Runner.

And waste the opportunity to embody the wholesome gender roles he could expect of his future Snow White or Little Mermaid? No wonder society is going down the tube...

[raz]

If you had 4 year old kids watching slasher flicks I'm sure he would have some concerns though! For many reasons... don't do that

Dont worry about that. If I had a 4 year old kid he'd be watching Bugs Bunny and Road Runner.

And waste the opportunity to embody the wholesome gender roles he could expect of his future Snow White or Little Mermaid? No wonder society is going down the tube...

Good call. Atleast he'd get classical music though.

[sandgrubber]

Guess I should check out the Droid Apps store and find out how many people have downloaded this app. I'd hope the numbers are fairly small.

I'd say the section of the community that thinks Grand Auto Theft is cool is somewhat larger than the segment that thinks dog fighting is cool. I'm not into condemning stuff, partly cause I don't know how to do so effectively (mostly 'bad' kids think it's funny when an old lady scolds them). But the popularity of violent amoral games among some sections of the community bothers me. I don't know the gaming world at all well, but I'd agree generally with the Raz that this is one of many violent, amoral games . . . and it's a worry . . . but part of a bigger worrysome picture.

Glad I just have dogs and no kids.

I think that's pretty disgusting but after thinking about it, how is it any different to computer games where the player can beat someone to death with a golf club or run over old ladies?

There are no significant sections of the community who encourage beating people to death or running over old ladies as social norms. The people who are involved with dog fighting see it as an acceptable social norm amongst their peers.

Edited April 26, 2011 by sandgrubber

[raz]

In a list of the 100 worst games ever this one caught my eye

7. Custer's Revenge (Atari 2600): One of the world's first "adult" video games, this travesty let players control the General and rape a Native American girl tied to a cactus.

So back to my earlier question - why does Dog Wars get headlines but something like that doesnt? Infact looking through the list it really makes you wonder who in god's name buys all of that crap but obviously lots of people do because the industry rakes in billions.

[raz]

I waas looking for an ad for a computer game that caused a stir a few months ago because it uses mothers to show their outrage at how violent the game is but cant find it (it's actually a very clever piece of marketing) but came across this for you, Aidan - just for interest sake

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-natio...1201-18gc7.html

[conztruct]

Yeah, pretty sick if you ask me but of course it's going to hit a raw nerve with me being a dog owner and lover.

There's all sorts of games around the place now - killing, torture, drugs, rape, etc etc and a seemingly never-ending quest to create the goriest, most offensive game out - the public lap it up too.

I think it reveals some sad lessons about our society when this kind of thing is considered entertainment and I don't understand the mindset of parents who knowingly allow their children to play these type of games (NOTE: I'm not saying they're unfit parents, I'm just saying I don't understand the rationale behind allowing kids to play games where the level up bonus is based on the number of "bitches you rape"). I know games are make-believe and most people can draw the line but geez......

However, it seems that all we can do is register our displeasure with the app - according to the creators (in the other thread) what they are doing is perfectly legal and I guess they're just looking at the vehicle that can deliver the $$ for them. I do wonder though where we will stop - will it be at the point where there is a child rape game or the taliban destroying the USA game?

Edited April 26, 2011 by conztruct

[raz]

or the taliban destroying the USA game?

There probably already is one, conz. Much the same as 'torture porn' in movies which just takes it to the absolute extreme. I agree with you - how far can they go? I dont understand what the big broohaha is over bringing in an R rating for violent games.

And just on your point about parents - I watched a pretty violent zombie movie the other night then read viewer reviews on imdb the next morning. One clown said he watched it with his 6 year old then replayed a grubby gratuitous sex scene a couple of times for him when the kid asked a question about it. What the??? It didnt go down at all well with the other posters.

Edited April 26, 2011 by raz

[kyliegirl]

I dont like how they are blaming google etc when the app was made by someone of the general public. Do you know how hard it is to constantly monitor hundreds and thousands of newly added apps from the public a day? Google had nothing to do with the production of this app yet somehow people are blaming them? Google is probably now aware of the app and would be taking the necessary steps to remove the app, but even removing the app does not mean the person or other people cant just put it back up there.. Its not that hard to just create a new account or change your ip or have supporters of the app to upload it again if they really want to share it.. You cannot blame google for the action or the creation of others and their apps.

[Aidan3]

I waas looking for an ad for a computer game that caused a stir a few months ago because it uses mothers to show their outrage at how violent the game is but cant find it (it's actually a very clever piece of marketing) but came across this for you, Aidan - just for interest sake

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-natio...1201-18gc7.html

That's the problem with factors in multi-factorial problems. You have to make a decision where to draw the line. You wouldn't expect video games to be a large factor and I don't think anyone really expected to find that video games would turn people into serial killers, but they did investigate whether it was a factor or not and the evidence tells us that it is. So if ministers are looking at it and saying "it's only a small factor" then I hope they understand the limitations of the research and are taking into consideration the range of violent materials available to kids these days and are tracking the changes in attitudes towards violence.

The study where they interviewed high-school shooters can at best show us whether violent people are attracted to violent video games, so I'm not sure why that was even reported in that article or to the ministers involved? People have been killing each other since the dawn of man.

When I was a kid there were rules about how to fight. If you got into a fight there were boundaries. Then, at 16 I was attacked by a large group of kids with weapons; bike chains, baseball bats, pipe, even knuckle-dusters. Where do they get those ideas from? That is not normal behaviour. Thankfully, someone in a car saw what was happening and I managed to jump into their car, they probably saved my life. But that's fairly normal now, kids use weapons, they keep going when someone is on the ground or incapable of further defending themselves. If you're female, you can't leave a drink unattended in case someone spikes it. How did we end up with that many deviants?

If we think we can blame one thing, we're really missing the point. It's not just video games, or just parents, or just movies. The question for me is how do we maintain healthy social norms amidst all these factors? I would argue that we should control an industry where there seems to be a race to see who can hit the bottom first. We live in a bystander society where people are afraid to say "that's not cool", men in particular.

[Aidan3]

http://phandroid.com/2011/04/26/dog-wars-n...et-was-it-vick/

[conztruct]

I waas looking for an ad for a computer game that caused a stir a few months ago because it uses mothers to show their outrage at how violent the game is but cant find it (it's actually a very clever piece of marketing) but came across this for you, Aidan - just for interest sake

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-natio...1201-18gc7.html

That's the problem with factors in multi-factorial problems. You have to make a decision where to draw the line. You wouldn't expect video games to be a large factor and I don't think anyone really expected to find that video games would turn people into serial killers, but they did investigate whether it was a factor or not and the evidence tells us that it is. So if ministers are looking at it and saying "it's only a small factor" then I hope they understand the limitations of the research and are taking into consideration the range of violent materials available to kids these days and are tracking the changes in attitudes towards violence.

The study where they interviewed high-school shooters can at best show us whether violent people are attracted to violent video games, so I'm not sure why that was even reported in that article or to the ministers involved? People have been killing each other since the dawn of man.

When I was a kid there were rules about how to fight. If you got into a fight there were boundaries. Then, at 16 I was attacked by a large group of kids with weapons; bike chains, baseball bats, pipe, even knuckle-dusters. Where do they get those ideas from? That is not normal behaviour. Thankfully, someone in a car saw what was happening and I managed to jump into their car, they probably saved my life. But that's fairly normal now, kids use weapons, they keep going when someone is on the ground or incapable of further defending themselves. If you're female, you can't leave a drink unattended in case someone spikes it. How did we end up with that many deviants?

If we think we can blame one thing, we're really missing the point. It's not just video games, or just parents, or just movies. The question for me is how do we maintain healthy social norms amidst all these factors? I would argue that we should control an industry where there seems to be a race to see who can hit the bottom first. We live in a bystander society where people are afraid to say "that's not cool", men in particular.

How did we get like this? Because it is now everyone's right to do whatever they want - there is no such thing as social norms just what people think is ok. And if they get called on their behaviour, well, "it's my right to do what I want and how dare you question me - I'm going to sue you with some far-fetched lawsuit and become rich".

People are now rewarded for being precious, selfish and antagonistic and the wonderful thing about it is that if you really get stuck in a corner, you can tell everyone you have ADHD or didn't get everything you wanted as a child and get off with a stern warning........

What happened to us is that we've now got soft and only care about ourselves and what someone owes us because it's our right. I think some boundaries are good but we're a free society and nobody has the guts to impose them.