Google Abandons Motto: ‘don’t Be Evil’

[Staranais]

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/04/25/...s-michael-vick/

http://stubbydog.org/2011/04/google-abando...80%99t-be-evil/

[raz]

I think that's pretty disgusting but after thinking about it, how is it any different to computer games where the player can beat someone to death with a golf club or run over old ladies?

[Aidan3]

I think that's pretty disgusting but after thinking about it, how is it any different to computer games where the player can beat someone to death with a golf club or run over old ladies?

There are no significant sections of the community who encourage beating people to death or running over old ladies as social norms. The people who are involved with dog fighting see it as an acceptable social norm amongst their peers.

[raz]

The people who are involved with dog fighting see it as an acceptable social norm amongst their peers.

Sure for sure but I was thinking more along the lines of the average Joe who plays stupid computer games

[raz]

OK I just asked my husband if he'd play something like that and his answer was - No, it's morally abhorrent - but running over little old ladies and beating someone to death in Grand Theft Auto is perfectly fine. Strange...very strange.

Edited April 26, 2011 by raz

[Aidan3]

The people who are involved with dog fighting see it as an acceptable social norm amongst their peers.

Sure for sure but I was thinking more along the lines of the average Joe who plays stupid computer games

I visit another forum based in the US, some of the members have clearly been brought up around dog fighting and the only thing they see wrong with it is that it's illegal. They are "average Joes who play stupid computer games", so I wonder how big a step it would be for them? A game that glorifies dog fighting is probably a small thing on it's own, but in combination with other things it's a bit of a concern.

[raz]

I visit another forum based in the US, some of the members have clearly been brought up around dog fighting and the only thing they see wrong with it is that it's illegal. They are "average Joes who play stupid computer games", so I wonder how big a step it would be for them? A game that glorifies dog fighting is probably a small thing on it's own, but in combination with other things it's a bit of a concern.

I dont play computer games so I really dont know but someone brought up with dog fighting is going to do it regardless of whether or not a game is available, and someone not interested in dog fighting might like the game and never be interested in buying a dog to throw him in the ring after playing it. I just think it's interesting that violent computer games dont cause a stir but an android App gets a headline because of that ass that treated his dogs so badly. (pretty judgemental of me but is some redneck involved in dog fighting even going to know what an android phone is anyway? - OK that's a bit out of line...)

[Aidan3]

I visit another forum based in the US, some of the members have clearly been brought up around dog fighting and the only thing they see wrong with it is that it's illegal. They are "average Joes who play stupid computer games", so I wonder how big a step it would be for them? A game that glorifies dog fighting is probably a small thing on it's own, but in combination with other things it's a bit of a concern.

I dont play computer games so I really dont know but someone brought up with dog fighting is going to do it regardless of whether or not a game is available

Possibly, but once you build up those social cues that something is acceptable or thrilling it changes the probability of it happening. Dog fighters really are just, in most other ways, just normal people. They play sports, go to college, use mobile phone apps etc At the moment it's seen as not a socially acceptable thing to do in most places. If there are games out there, youtube clips, facebook groups etc that glorify dog fighting (and there are), that changes the social norms. Psychology has never really been able to draw any conclusions on video games and music because it's not an individual problem that you can reduce to a laboratory setting. This is contentious stuff and I would err on the side of caution.

I'm not a big believer in restrictive censorship. For the most part I think art and media can allow people to indulge in fantasy in a reasonably safe way. There are social checks and balances in place. I'm just not convinced that this is safe, it doesn't have the same checks and balances. I'm can just imagine kids playing this game, then getting involved in dog fighting because it is available and they will find social groups that encourage it. You don't have to look too hard either.

You could say this could happen with, say, BDSM, but with BDSM you have consenting adults (usually) who are playing a role. There are boundaries, even if they are stretched well beyond societal norms. It's a bit different when you have unconsenting animals who are playing for life and death.

[raz]

I'm can just imagine kids playing this game, then getting involved in dog fighting because it is available and they will find social groups that encourage it. You don't have to look too hard either.

I'm a big fan of horror/thriller genre - hasnt turned me into a serial killer and there are quite a few members on here who are the same. What's to say an App about dog fighting is going to turn someone into a crim?

Disclaimer - I still think it's disgusting but I think all computer games are pretty disgusting. The only thing they do for me is give me vertigo.

[Maddy]

I'm a big fan of horror/thriller genre - hasnt turned me into a serial killer and there are quite a few members on here who are the same.

Or so you assume.

Anyways, must be off- got a body to bury out in the yard. I watched the new Saw movie last night and thought I'd have a go at knocking up my own murder trap.

Seriously though.. people need to give their kids some credit. It's not video games or violent movies or dog fighting apps that make little monsters, it's usually the parents. If we could just figure out how to ban them...

Edited to add..

Here's a good example- When I was younger, I loved playing Drug Wars (a sim game where you traffic illegal drugs). I'm not out on the streets peddling pills to children or managing a crack house. As a child, my parents taught me that certain drugs were illegal for good reasons. Same goes for games that involved killing or hurting people (of which there are plenty) and games that contain other socially unacceptable goals (like taking over the world).

It is a parent's job to teach children what is acceptable behaviour and what isn't. Sanitising gaming or movies is an inappropriate response that simply encourages parents to allow children to explore the world without the guidance they need.

Edited April 26, 2011 by Hardy's Angel

[Aidan3]

I'm can just imagine kids playing this game, then getting involved in dog fighting because it is available and they will find social groups that encourage it. You don't have to look too hard either.

I'm a big fan of horror/thriller genre - hasnt turned me into a serial killer and there are quite a few members on here who are the same. What's to say an App about dog fighting is going to turn someone into a crim?

Different social groups. No-one would support or facilitate your career change. No-one would be a willing participant.

It would be very difficult to prove a causal link, but we do know there are correlations.

[raz]

Just make sure you bury the corpse deep, HA. I read in Chopper Read's autobio that the gases make them rise.

oops sorry that's a bit OT

[raz]

Edited to add..

Here's a good example- When I was younger, I loved playing Drug Wars (a sim game where you traffic illegal drugs). I'm not out on the streets peddling pills to children or managing a crack house. As a child, my parents taught me that certain drugs were illegal for good reasons. Same goes for games that involved killing or hurting people (of which there are plenty) and games that contain other socially unacceptable goals (like taking over the world).

It is a parent's job to teach children what is acceptable behaviour and what isn't. Sanitising gaming or movies is an inappropriate response that simply encourages parents to allow children to explore the world without the guidance they need.

I've been reading a book about a lovely lovely guy caught trafficking coke out of Bolivia. Sure wont encourage me to carry any white stuff in or out of south america next time I go - despite the fact he had a jolly good romp in prison.

[Maddy]

I'm can just imagine kids playing this game, then getting involved in dog fighting because it is available and they will find social groups that encourage it. You don't have to look too hard either.

I'm a big fan of horror/thriller genre - hasnt turned me into a serial killer and there are quite a few members on here who are the same. What's to say an App about dog fighting is going to turn someone into a crim?

Different social groups. No-one would support or facilitate your career change. No-one would be a willing participant.

It would be very difficult to prove a causal link, but we do know there are correlations.

A person who is more inclined toward criminal activity is also more likely to have difficulty with empathy (because a lack of empathy is required to victimise another person/animal) so criminal activity that involves harming other people or animals (dog fighting, prostitution, etc) obviously becomes more likely. Violent video games do not make violent people.

Suggesting that violent games or games that involve/encourage criminal behaviour are a contributing factor is ignoring everything we know about the causes of violent crime.

What is the difference between me and someone who does actually peddle drugs, slap up goblins or jack cars? I learned that certain behaviours were unacceptable through consistant parenting. Additionally, I had the good fortune of being born in a country with a decent social security system so I'd never have motivation to commit crime.

The fact that crime is still happening here means you could say that it's one of two things- influence of media or influence of parents. Children learn by watching everything that happens around them, what they see at home is their reality, not Grand Theft Auto.

Just make sure you bury the corpse deep, HA. I read in Chopper Read's autobio that the gases make them rise.

Even in heavy soil? Well, the things you learn on Dol. Dol is teaching me how to dispose of bodies, oh noez!

[Aidan3]

Suggesting that violent games or games that involve/encourage criminal behaviour are a contributing factor is ignoring everything we know about the causes of violent crime.

Errmm, actually that's not true, and it's really not that simple. Some researchers regard the evidence that violent video games cause aggression as being conclusive, what implications that has are a little harder to determine.

I really don't think we can pin all violent crime in Australia on bad parenting. Just because you had good parents, played violent video games and didn't end up committing violent crime doesn't really tell us anything about it at all.

[Maddy]

Suggesting that violent games or games that involve/encourage criminal behaviour are a contributing factor is ignoring everything we know about the causes of violent crime.

Errmm, actually that's not true, and it's really not that simple. Some researchers regard the evidence that violent video games cause aggression as being conclusive, what implications that has are a little harder to determine.

I really don't think we can pin all violent crime in Australia on bad parenting. Just because you had good parents, played violent video games and didn't end up committing violent crime doesn't really tell us anything about it at all.

"Some researchers believe" is not conclusive evidence. Some researchers believed vaccinations cause autism when it was simply a case of vaccines being administered at roughly the same age the illness is generally diagnosed. There has been research done in the US (quite recently) that pointed to exactly the opposite conclusion of the researchers you refer to- they found no link between violence and video games.

Suggesting that video games contrribute to violent crime is, in my opinion, ignoring the known contributing factors (poverty, drug use/abuse in the home, etc) in favour of a "factor" that some people find distasteful (and something that can more easily be banned than a poor home environment).

Edited to add..

I have to go out for a while but when I get back, I'll find you the names of the researchers and a link to their study. Their study (unlike many others relating to video games) was entirely independant and they were not seeking to confirm a belief they already held (unlike studies where the purpose of the study was to prove video games are bad for children).

Edited April 26, 2011 by Hardy's Angel

[Zhou Xuanyao]

Nicely put Hardy's Angel.

[raz]

Errrr 'some researchers'? Who would they be exactly?

[Aidan3]

"Some researchers believe" is not conclusive evidence.

I didn't say that it was, I said some researchers believe the evidence to be conclusive. What researchers believe is of minor importance compared to the evidence they report. The vaccine example is a straw-man argument. Science is always being challenged, if it wasn't it would be worthless.

There has been research done in the US (quite recently) that pointed to exactly the opposite conclusion of the researchers you refer to- they found no link between violence and video games.

The exact opposite effect would be a finding that violent video games produce pro-social and benevolent behaviours. An insignificant finding could mean anything.

See http://www.apa.org/science/about/psa/2003/10/anderson.aspx

Suggesting that video games contrribute to violent crime is, in my opinion, ignoring the known contributing factors (poverty, drug use/abuse in the home, etc) in favour of a "factor" that some people find distasteful (and something that can more easily be banned than a poor home environment).

That's a good point, but if it is a factor, it's something we can easily do something about without drawing significant resources from other areas.

[raz]

My husband likes Grand Theft Auto for a bit of stress relief. I might have to start sleeping with a machete under my pillow