Dog Killed The Guinea Pigs - Opinions, Advice, And Friendly Ears Neede

[Bulldust]

If the little gwinnies were laid out, it wasnt your dog that killed them.

Can you explain this for me? Orbee hasn't killed anything except his toys, but he tends to be what I refer to as a 'hoarder' in that when he takes his toys outside, he takes them to the same spot and puts them together. Do you mean it's a Terrier thing to NOT do this? Or is Orbit just.... um.... you know...

Orbit isnt a terrier, lovey. A terrier would shred it, not lay it out

Where i work there is 2 resident terrier's, very efficient ratter's, a quick shake and the animal is dead, the only give away is a small amount of slobber on the expired rodent.

[raz]

Where i work there is 2 resident terrier's, very efficient ratter's, a quick shake and the animal is dead, the only give away is a small amount of slobber on the expired rodent.

Good dogs. Do they work in a pair or solo?

Maybe it's because they work all the time? Not sure but every terrier I've come across that gets the occasional vermin completely guts it. My lot got hold of a snake a few weeks ago - I was picking up the pieces all over the yard for about an hour.

[Gayle.]

I'm going to have to disagree with this. Sometimes dogs do the wrong thing, know it was wrong at the time and also know they'll get in trouble as soon as you see 'it', be it the hole in the lawn, the glove or whatever he's moved or the couch he sat on etc. Since starting work full-time, my dogs' reaction to my home coming is an extremely reliable means through which to determine whether he's been naughty or not. If I come home and he's normal I know he's been good. If however he's crouched close to the ground and actively maintaining a bubble between us, well it's time to search for the crime. You can even tell if he's been confronted for that particular problem yet or not; like by my partner, bc he will act normal, and if you spy the crime instead of looking super sad and sorry, or making a run for it, he just ignores it. Sure enough, everytime he's done this, Dan has confirmed he's already been told off.

So it would seem he knows exactly what he's doing, and just chooses to offend anyway.

I agree with your post.

This is pretty much the same as my boy who steals a bone from another dog then walks past me with the bone in his mouth and his eyes tightly shut. If he didn't know it was wrong to steal the bone, why would he walk past me with his eyes shut (in the belief that if he can't see me, I can't see him)? He knows it's wrong before he does it, which is why he does it when I'm not in his line of sight, he knows it's wrong when he takes his stolen booty to his corner but has to go past me on the way. And he gives it up as soon as I approach him because he knows he's not allowed to have it.

[raineth]

I don't think dogs have a concept of 'wrong'. They have a concept of what is rewarding and what is punishing - that's for sure!

'right' and 'wrong' are human constructions.

[Miranda]

He's a DOG. They were prey.

Smack your partner for considering punishing a dog long after the deed was done. Its utterly pointless.

Either dont get any more guinea pigs or get them the equivalent of a Fort Knox hutch and put a fence between him and them.

Personally I'd be going for the first option. Dogs and small mammals are an accident waiting to happen.

Thank you PF.

I am fed up with people putting unrealistic expectations on dogs.

They are DOGS! Dogs are ANIMALS! They are not stuffed toys that do not react to instinct.

And they WILL KILL small animals. if the opportunity presents.

PF & Souff

Yes I completely agree. I own Gordon Setters, not terriers, but I can assure you that any one of them would kill a guinea pig if they got hold of it and I can tell you exactly how they would do it because I've seen them kill other small animals such as rabbits and possums and once (RIP), my kitten. They grab the animal on the back of the neck and close their jaws and the animal is killed instantly, other than a bit of slobber the animal appears completely unmarked. It is very quick, I've seen one of my bitches grab a possum and kill it in less than five seconds. Once the animal is dead they'll guard it for a while and then lose interest unless it's a rabbit in which case they'll eat it.

If you're going to keep small prey animals as pets don't use chicken wire, because a dog can break it easily, use heavy duty wire and place the hutch or enclosure out of the dog's reach if possible. It's unfortunate that your pets were killed, but the dog was only obeying its instincts.

Edited April 26, 2011 by Miranda

[jacqui835]

I don't think dogs have a concept of 'wrong'. They have a concept of what is rewarding and what is punishing - that's for sure!

'right' and 'wrong' are human constructions.

Well sure, point is though that you can find something a dog did several hours ago and punish it then and there and the dog knows exactly why it's being reprimanded. This isn't true when they're puppies, but you can see the transition as they age - by the time my dog was about 6 months old, if he'd peed in the house (usually because it was raining or something), he wouldn't come to greet me when I came home and I could tell how close I was getting to the scene of the crime by how far away from me my dog was keeping. And this was a dog who has never been beaten in his life, so I don't think he was worried that I'd hurt him, more he just seemed to fear my disapproval.

However it wasn't until he'd been reprimanded that we could go back to being normal with each other again. If he'd done something naughty, he would act extra sheepy and sooky until I found it, told him off and then said, ok let's get on with life etc.

[raineth]

I don't think dogs have a concept of 'wrong'. They have a concept of what is rewarding and what is punishing - that's for sure!

'right' and 'wrong' are human constructions.

Well sure, point is though that you can find something a dog did several hours ago and punish it then and there and the dog knows exactly why it's being reprimanded. This isn't true when they're puppies, but you can see the transition as they age - by the time my dog was about 6 months old, if he'd peed in the house (usually because it was raining or something), he wouldn't come to greet me when I came home and I could tell how close I was getting to the scene of the crime by how far away from me my dog was keeping. And this was a dog who has never been beaten in his life, so I don't think he was worried that I'd hurt him, more he just seemed to fear my disapproval.

However it wasn't until he'd been reprimanded that we could go back to being normal with each other again. If he'd done something naughty, he would act extra sheepy and sooky until I found it, told him off and then said, ok let's get on with life etc.

but your logic is not perfect.

All it means is that he knows that you + a puddle of wee = you cranky at him.

I dare you to do an experiment.

is there any bit of destruction he does relatively often while you're gone? such as raiding the garbage bin?

Go out, get someone to knock over the garbage bin and spread it around, and see how he reacts when you come home.

[Aidan3]

Well sure, point is though that you can find something a dog did several hours ago and punish it then and there and the dog knows exactly why it's being reprimanded.

Dogs who are reprimanded for things after the event often learn to offer appeasement gestures a lot to avoid trouble. Dogs who are reprimanded at the time of the event learn to avoid trouble by not doing the thing that got them into trouble. If you are seeing appeasement gestures, your dog does not understand what he did wrong.

[raineth]

have a look at this video Jacqui835:

http://susangarrettdogagility.com/2011/04/...mpse-at-guilty/

[jacqui835]

Well sure, point is though that you can find something a dog did several hours ago and punish it then and there and the dog knows exactly why it's being reprimanded.

Dogs who are reprimanded for things after the event often learn to offer appeasement gestures a lot to avoid trouble. Dogs who are reprimanded at the time of the event learn to avoid trouble by not doing the thing that got them into trouble. If you are seeing appeasement gestures, your dog does not understand what he did wrong.

What do you mean he doesn't know what he did wrong? He only does the appeasement gestures after he's done something wrong, and this is often before we even know he's done anything so it can't be coming from us. What I mean is we come home every day, the dog is waiting at the gate. His tail is always wagging and he's overjoyed to see us. I then go inside, get changed and then go to the back door to let him in. At this point, if he's not waiting right at the back door ready to try and drench me with kisses, and instead is perhaps crouched a meter or so away from the door, well we know immediately that he's done something naughty whilst we were out. He knows that what he's done will get him into trouble. Why else would he do that?

Sometimes I come home, see something naughty and start talking in an angry voice to the dog and he just looks confused and distracted - like maybe I'm not talking to him or something. I know to stop very quickly then, because it always turns out he's already been told off for that particular issue by my partner. I don't know how else to explain his response, but it would seem to me that he knows he's done wrong, he knew it at the time and just decided that perhaps because he was angry at us for leaving him alone so long, or the desire to be naughty was overwhelming and our punishments not severe enough to counter the urge, he'd be naughty.

Everything we tell him off for he has been caught in the act doing before. He's not a very naughty dog, maybe once a fortnight he'll do something cheeky - like for example, move my partner's gardening glove from the basket into the middle of the lawn. He knows he can't touch those gloves, he's been caught in the act and he had exactly the same response - ie crouching low and looking extra sad and sorry for himself.

This is not a dog who suffers severe punishments. We're talking 10 secs of - (angry shocked voice) - what is this, this is unacceptable, you're a naughty dog and should be ashamed! - wait 5 secs whilst he looks at you sadly - ok let's go inside. And we can now go through the whole, oh I'm so happy to see you, hug time etc before we go for our walk/run/bike ride/dog park.

[corvus]

You're judging the behaviour of a captive wild animal kept in an enclosure that prevents it from responding naturally to theat.

How do you know? Poodlefan, when I presume to tell you what you're doing wrong with one of your poodles, I hope you bring me down a few pegs. You are a very knowledgeable person, but don't get too carried away.

It's helpless to escape threat and it knows it.

How do you know? *looks around* Have you been here watching? Can you read his mind? I can't! I'll tell you what, though, you don't get to make a mistake like that with him without knowing about it. He is VERY flighty. He will not just sit there, frozen in terror, while a dog walks up to him unless he's cool with it. If he can't get away he will explode and try to run anyway. I learnt this through not applying the two degrees of separation rule to visiting humans. These days in his nearly 8m square enclosure he always has the option to run. He nearly always takes it, even though he can't run as fast or as far as he would in the wild.

Why you'd allow a strange dog anywhere near it beats me.

Ahem, my hare was around before both my current dogs were. They had to be strangers at some point. Same goes for every other of the 7 dogs he's ever lived with however briefly. Two of them I never intended to allow anywhere near him, but they had other ideas. Which is why we have the 2 degrees of separation rule. So the worst that happened was he got a scare.

Mixing predators and prey is risky business.

Yes, yes it is. I really push the two degrees of separation rule. It gives you room for mistakes. When my hare was living with my parents, they often used three degrees of separation. Two closed doors between the little hunter and the hare's locked cage. There were definitely mistakes made where people left a door open or didn't realise the hare was out of his cage, but with the other door closed, the hare and the rabbit were always safe. The little hunter NEVER got a shot at them. It can be done, you just have to factor inevitable human stuff-ups into your management plan and stick to the rules.

[jacqui835]

have a look at this video Jacqui835:

http://susangarrettdogagility.com/2011/04/...mpse-at-guilty/

Very cute video, but, my dog seems to be different. Firstly, if I did that to him and he hadn't done anything he'd been told was naughty before, he wouldn't look guilty, he would just assume I was talking to Dan or someone else lol. Secondly, he looks guilty before we've discovered the evidence, and only when there is something to find. Sometimes we can't find what the problem is that night, and then the next morning in the sun we can see that he's worked on the hole next to the fence.

I will try and take a video of it, because it's impossible to explain. I go back to work tomorrow, so tomorrow night, I'll have the camera ready when I get to back door. Now we just need to wait till he's done something. I will also take a video of what happens when I try to reprimand him, and he's either already been punished for that particular crime or didn't actually do it (Dan will sometimes just leave his stuff lying around, and the dog doesn't always get the benefit of the doubt...)

[BoStoNmAdNeSs]

have a look at this video Jacqui835:

http://susangarrettdogagility.com/2011/04/...mpse-at-guilty/

Thats the tone in the voice thats making the dog cringe. What you haven't addressed with presenting this video is when Jacqui walks into her house and her dog is displaying guilt right away, with nothing being said.

[Muttaburra]

Muttaburra

I have seen a hutch that was made out of sheet metal and aviary wire be ripped and bent into an unrecognisable shape by a pair of beautiful pedigreed dogs that decided to get to the guinea pigs.

The hutch was very well constructed but could not withstand what can only be described as a frenzied attack.

Dogs can rip through aviary wire. Dogs have been known to gnaw through the wire of cyclone fencing and through doors, when they had a mind to do so.

Souff

Thanks for that Souff, I didn't realize that dogs could do that much destruction. A place where I lived for a while with a motley pack of 5 dogs and a few wandering dogs and foxes never had problems with the aviary wire, maybe they weren't trying that hard.

Raz, my JRT will shake and kill rats and as soon as it is dead, leave it where it was killed. When he kills mice though, he will keep biting at it, breaking every bone in it's body just to make sure it's dead? Does the same with flies.

Edited April 26, 2011 by Muttaburra

[Aidan3]

I don't know how else to explain his response, but it would seem to me that he knows he's done wrong, he knew it at the time and just decided that perhaps because he was angry at us for leaving him alone so long, or the desire to be naughty was overwhelming and our punishments not severe enough to counter the urge, he'd be naughty.

One way to explain it is that he's learned to offer appeasement gestures if the glove is moved, a hole has been dug etc The fact that we can get them to display these same "guilty" behaviours when they aren't guilty tells us something about this behaviour.

It's a circular argument - in order to be "guilty" he must know that something is "naughty". How do we know that he knows it's "naughty" - because he's acting "guilty". But if he acts guilty, but we know that he hasn't in fact done something naughty - then how do we explain that?

Do dogs have a desire to be naughty, or do they seek revenge because they are angry at being left alone? Again, we have to rely on circular arguments to explain these things when there are other explanations that don't require assumptions.

[Curlybert]

This is pretty much the same as my boy who steals a bone from another dog then walks past me with the bone in his mouth and his eyes tightly shut. If he didn't know it was wrong to steal the bone, why would he walk past me with his eyes shut (in the belief that if he can't see me, I can't see him)? He knows it's wrong before he does it, which is why he does it when I'm not in his line of sight, he knows it's wrong when he takes his stolen booty to his corner but has to go past me on the way. And he gives it up as soon as I approach him because he knows he's not allowed to have it.

I know this is a serious thread and I am trying hard to be po-faced but this IS very funny, Gayle! I always know in advance when one of my girls has broken the law because she takes herself outside and lies in the kennel that she never otherwise uses. The crime is usually ripped up toilet rolls or overturned waste paper baskets.

Edited April 26, 2011 by Curlybert

[Aidan3]

have a look at this video Jacqui835:

http://susangarrettdogagility.com/2011/04/...mpse-at-guilty/

Thats the tone in the voice thats making the dog cringe. What you haven't addressed with presenting this video is when Jacqui walks into her house and her dog is displaying guilt right away, with nothing being said.

That's right, it is the tone of voice - what this demonstrates is that the dog didn't need to do anything naughty to look "guilty", he has just learned how to do appeasement gestures and they don't have to be connected to any "knowing" about being "naughty".

As I said earlier, you could repeat the experiment until the dog has learned to expect punishment then the dog will begin to look guilty before the owner says anything, just because the treat is missing.

[Aidan3]

I will also take a video of what happens when I try to reprimand him, and he's either already been punished for that particular crime or didn't actually do it (Dan will sometimes just leave his stuff lying around, and the dog doesn't always get the benefit of the doubt...)

So what happens if Dan has left his stuff lying around and you don't try to reprimand him?

[jacqui835]

have a look at this video Jacqui835:

http://susangarrettdogagility.com/2011/04/...mpse-at-guilty/

Thats the tone in the voice thats making the dog cringe. What you haven't addressed with presenting this video is when Jacqui walks into her house and her dog is displaying guilt right away, with nothing being said.

That's right, it is the tone of voice - what this demonstrates is that the dog didn't need to do anything naughty to look "guilty", he has just learned how to do appeasement gestures and they don't have to be connected to any "knowing" about being "naughty".

As I said earlier, you could repeat the experiment until the dog has learned to expect punishment then the dog will begin to look guilty before the owner says anything, just because the treat is missing.

Maybe read my other posts first. Sometimes I start to tell my dog off for something that I'm sure is his doing - ie, one of Dan's socks randomly lying in the middle of the loungeroom. Now Dan will also point at the dog and be like, it was him. So how do I tell? I ask the dog. And unlike Dan, he might be smart enough to be naughty when we're not around, but fortunately he's not yet capable of lying.

Or, sometimes I will tell the dog off for something that was his fault, can't have been anyone else's (for example he has this hole that he sometimes likes to work on), but he doesn't look sad despite my usual lecture. I know this means that Dan has already told him off for this particular crime - he is familiar with double jeopardy lol.

[raineth]

have a look at this video Jacqui835:

http://susangarrettdogagility.com/2011/04/...mpse-at-guilty/

Thats the tone in the voice thats making the dog cringe. What you haven't addressed with presenting this video is when Jacqui walks into her house and her dog is displaying guilt right away, with nothing being said.

Exactly the dog is responding to its owner's displeasure. remember that!

don't you think if that scenario repeated itself several times the dog would learn to offer appeasment behaviours before the owner's angry voice began?