Dog Killed The Guinea Pigs - Opinions, Advice, And Friendly Ears Neede

[poodlefan]

He will calmly hold still and watch a dog that wants to play as long as it doesn't make any big and sudden movements, but a dog that wants to eat him sends him into a panic.

Hares are smarter than rabbits. He'd be reading the body language of your dogs and saving flight for only when it was necessary. As an above ground dweller with no burrow to run to, freezing until necessary is a pure survival mechanism. Lots of animals hold position until there's no alternative but running. You know htat. Being denied the capacity to run, he'd be stressed to the max. I'd never put a wild animal in that postion.

I'd say your boys are playing - at hunting. They're trying to trigger the hare to run... a running animal is a lot more fun to hunt when you ain't doing it for food. Dogs most certainly do hunt for reasons other than hunger.

Edited April 25, 2011 by poodlefan

[mac'ella]

We had several rabbits which shared the yard with our dogs never a problem except when our last one which used to play chicken with our boxer' zigged when he should have zagged,very unlucky but rabbits are quite fragile and he broke his neck on collision.the guinea pigs were often let out while the cage was cleaned and the only loss was to a hawk,we did however once find an escaped black and white rat (not ours)which wasnt so lucky.I think as others have said if he was intent on harming them there would be significant damage.

[Mavriksbt]

To answer some of the questions:

*It's quite likely they died of fright

*We are sure it was the dog, because of the dog's head sized hole in the chicken wire of the hutch that was more than 10 feet from where it started (like it got caught on his head and he had to back up to get it off)

* the piggies weren't laid out per se - just close together.

And for the record, the dog wasn't beaten. He was smacked. I appreciate that some people disagree with smacking dogs, and it's not my preferred method of achieving discipline - but it wasn't abuse.

I've just started reading this thread. One thing I am hoping everyone will remember at some point...not every single person who owns a dog, or lives with a dog, is dog savvy and understands the difference between positive and negative corrections, NRW, NILF, crate training, drive etc etc etc. There are some people out there, shocking as it may seem, who still believe in the older methods of dog training. And that dogs know when they have been bad. It doesn't make the poster feel any better about herself or her partner if we all act shocked etc. Educating works better and will have further reaching consequences.

BTW, and for future reference as I am sure that both yourself and your hubby will come to terms with the loss and will end up with more piggies...Staffords and their crosses can and DO eat through chicken wire. Most useless piece of mesh god ever put on this earth. One day I'll tell you a story of my in season bitch and a nine month old cattle X that were only seperated by chicken wire....and a picket fence...

[Muttaburra]

All rodent enclosures need to be covered with strong aviary wire. There are foxes and errant dogs that will easily break through other enclosures. It might have not been your dog, or it might have been, but any other dog, fox or predator will get them without protection.

As far as cats are concerned, with only one dog and plenty of escape options, it is unlikely the dog will harm them, as long as they are not old and slow.

Accept that your dog is a terrier, with strong prey drive, also these are dogs that are very human focused, which is what people love about them, it is really a situation of management, and whilst anger is understandable, all vulnerable companion animals need protection from any predator, be it you own dog or others dogs, foxes etc.

Edited April 25, 2011 by Muttaburra

[Souff]

He's a DOG. They were prey.

Smack your partner for considering punishing a dog long after the deed was done. Its utterly pointless.

Either dont get any more guinea pigs or get them the equivalent of a Fort Knox hutch and put a fence between him and them.

Personally I'd be going for the first option. Dogs and small mammals are an accident waiting to happen.

Thank you PF.

I am fed up with people putting unrealistic expectations on dogs.

They are DOGS! Dogs are ANIMALS! They are not stuffed toys that do not react to instinct.

And they WILL KILL small animals. if the opportunity presents.

[Souff]

All rodent enclosures need to be covered with strong aviary wire. There are foxes and errant dogs that will easily break through other enclosures. It might have not been your dog, or it might have been, but any other dog, fox or predator will get them without protection.

As far as cats are concerned, with only one dog and plenty of escape options, it is unlikely the dog will harm them, as long as they are not old and slow.

Accept that your dog is a terrier, with strong prey drive, also these are dogs that are very human focused, which is what people love about them, it is really a situation of management, and whilst anger is understandable, all vulnerable companion animals need protection from any predator, be it you own dog or others dogs, foxes etc.

Muttaburra

I have seen a hutch that was made out of sheet metal and aviary wire be ripped and bent into an unrecognisable shape by a pair of beautiful pedigreed dogs that decided to get to the guinea pigs.

The hutch was very well constructed but could not withstand what can only be described as a frenzied attack.

Dogs can rip through aviary wire. Dogs have been known to gnaw through the wire of cyclone fencing and through doors, when they had a mind to do so.

Souff

[BJean]

He's a DOG. They were prey.

Smack your partner for considering punishing a dog long after the deed was done. Its utterly pointless.

Either dont get any more guinea pigs or get them the equivalent of a Fort Knox hutch and put a fence between him and them.

Personally I'd be going for the first option. Dogs and small mammals are an accident waiting to happen.

Thank you PF.

I am fed up with people putting unrealistic expectations on dogs.

They are DOGS! Dogs are ANIMALS! They are not stuffed toys that do not react to instinct.

And they WILL KILL small animals. if the opportunity presents.

PF & Souff

Edited April 25, 2011 by lilli

[jacqui835]

I don't have a problem with the dog getting a smack, because although he may not understand WHY getting the guinea pigs was wrong, I think he did understand THAT getting the guinea pigs was wrong. Like I said, he is a clever dog.

Let me assure you, he is a dog that has no moral compass and therefore no concept that what he did was wrong. Otherwise why would he have done it? He could probably tell afterwards that you were upset with him, but he wouldn't have understood why.

I'm going to have to disagree with this. Sometimes dogs do the wrong thing, know it was wrong at the time and also know they'll get in trouble as soon as you see 'it', be it the hole in the lawn, the glove or whatever he's moved or the couch he sat on etc. Since starting work full-time, my dogs' reaction to my home coming is an extremely reliable means through which to determine whether he's been naughty or not. If I come home and he's normal I know he's been good. If however he's crouched close to the ground and actively maintaining a bubble between us, well it's time to search for the crime. You can even tell if he's been confronted for that particular problem yet or not; like by my partner, bc he will act normal, and if you spy the crime instead of looking super sad and sorry, or making a run for it, he just ignores it. Sure enough, everytime he's done this, Dan has confirmed he's already been told off.

So it would seem he knows exactly what he's doing, and just chooses to offend anyway.

[Christina]

Your dog will be fine with your cats so don't worry about that part.

Used to them for so long & cats are much better able to defend themselves than guinea pigs, he won't suddenly see the cats as prey now as he didn't before. The guinea pigs were a seperate issue.

No more small pets of this sort is the sensible option. Dog was being a dog, that's all. Its not just turned into a monster.

Just a sickly & a bit of a shock when this happens.

[keetamouse]

Dogs live in the moment.....

[New Age Outlaw]

Your dog will be fine with your cats so don't worry about that part.

Used to them for so long & cats are much better able to defend themselves than guinea pigs, he won't suddenly see the cats as prey now as he didn't before.

In most cases maybe, but honestly I don't think anyone could ever guarantee that. Many, many years ago I had both GSDs and cats. One day I came home from work to find one of the dogs had killed one of the cats...a cat she had known and been friendly with for 5 years. She was covered in blood and protecting her kill from the other dogs (they actually weren't particularly interested in it). So, I certainly would never think that you can ever fully 100% trust dogs with cats, or any other small animals.

[dastardlyboo]

The cats are kept separate from the dog when we are asleep or not home.

I THANK YOU all for your opinions and advice. I may not agree with everything that's been said but I appreciate the spirit in which it was given.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Can someone please explain to my ACDx that it's ok for her to assist with the quick dispatch of mice that the trap caught but didn't kill.

My brother's staffy has no trouble dispatching things like chooks and rats.

To the OP, dogs are in the moment creatures. Smacking the dog and putting it out will not save any future guinea pigs from the exact same fate, because the dog has no connection between its act and yours.

Random punishment of dog can have unexpected fallout - like the dog hiding from your OH or attacking your OH.

[dee lee]

Honestly, I can understand the situation- many of us don't overthink the ins and outs of living with dogs.

You take what you think are reasonable precautions, or, as in this case, procrastinate over fixing a hutch "next week".

Then when it all falls apart, get upset with the perpetrator.

I personally found it hard not to punish my previous dog for destroying 4 freshly planted gardenia bushes.

I roared at her upon discovering it.

I can certainly see how locking her out for the night might have made myself feel better.

Killing the step daughter's GPs would be much harder to bear- I would have been distraught.

I don't think the OP's dog would have been too traumatised by a smack & night out because of it.

[Aidan3]

So it would seem he knows exactly what he's doing, and just chooses to offend anyway.

They can learn all sorts of things, for e.g. "if mum comes home and there is a hole in the lawn, I get in trouble", but that doesn't necessarily mean they have linked everything together, i.e "if I dig this hole, I will be in trouble when mum comes home".

They also learn how to act to appease you when you are upset about something. Part of this is innate, they are natural signals that most dogs share, and part of it is learned - they regulate those signals depending on what works for them to avoid further trouble. We often interpret this as "guilt" but it's really just a defence mechanism.

There was a great video posted to these forums recently. The owner left a treat on the ground, told the dog to "leave it", then left the room. The camera person stole the treat. When the owner came back she was upset that the treat was gone and the dog looked very, very guilty. But if he didn't steal the treat, why did he need to look guilty? Simple, it was an appeasement gesture. He didn't feel guilt at all, he felt like he needed to avoid trouble. BIG difference.

It would actually be fairly easy to do this demonstration with the owner coming back and not saying anything at all, or even being pleased to see the dog. But to do that you would have to discipline the dog when the treat was missing, repeated until the association was made. Then it wouldn't matter who stole the treat or how the owner acted when coming in the room, the dog would offer appeasement gestures. There would be no link between stealing the treat and offering appeasement gestures, but there would be a link between a missing treat and appeasement gestures.

[gillybob]

My dogs live with 9 rats, they share the house and ignore the rats.

BUT my old JRTx Gilly will chase and kill wild rats.

He knows the difference, I think proberly because one of my rats used to pull Gillys wiskers when he got too close to the cage.

Gilly is 11, the other day he spent half the day sitting by the fence, a few feet away from a rabbit hutch.When my neighbours saw him and thought it was cute, I told them if he caught their rabbit he would kill it. Because he is a terrier and thats what he does.

They have a SBT and had no idea she would do the same.

They thought because they liked the rabbit she would as well.!!!!!

[corvus]

He will calmly hold still and watch a dog that wants to play as long as it doesn't make any big and sudden movements, but a dog that wants to eat him sends him into a panic.

Hares are smarter than rabbits. He'd be reading the body language of your dogs and saving flight for only when it was necessary. As an above ground dweller with no burrow to run to, freezing until necessary is a pure survival mechanism. Lots of animals hold position until there's no alternative but running. You know htat. Being denied the capacity to run, he'd be stressed to the max. I'd never put a wild animal in that postion.

Oh, I'm sorry, apparently I don't know what my hare looks like when he's calm. Lord help us if it were so. FYI, there is quite a pronounced difference between freezing and calmly holding still. The very thought that I would not know the difference is ludicrous. He lived in my room for several years! I would bloody hope I'd learnt that much about him. A wild hare is smarter than a domestic rabbit, but I'm not sure that this is why he is better at reading body language. I think he's just more flighty and so more committed to making sense of what goes on around him. And maybe he's got stronger instincts.

[poodlefan]

He will calmly hold still and watch a dog that wants to play as long as it doesn't make any big and sudden movements, but a dog that wants to eat him sends him into a panic.

Hares are smarter than rabbits. He'd be reading the body language of your dogs and saving flight for only when it was necessary. As an above ground dweller with no burrow to run to, freezing until necessary is a pure survival mechanism. Lots of animals hold position until there's no alternative but running. You know htat. Being denied the capacity to run, he'd be stressed to the max. I'd never put a wild animal in that postion.

Oh, I'm sorry, apparently I don't know what my hare looks like when he's calm. Lord help us if it were so. FYI, there is quite a pronounced difference between freezing and calmly holding still. The very thought that I would not know the difference is ludicrous. He lived in my room for several years! I would bloody hope I'd learnt that much about him. A wild hare is smarter than a domestic rabbit, but I'm not sure that this is why he is better at reading body language. I think he's just more flighty and so more committed to making sense of what goes on around him. And maybe he's got stronger instincts.

You're judging the behaviour of a captive wild animal kept in an enclosure that prevents it from responding naturally to theat. Then you expose it to its natural predators and allow them to behave in a predatory manner. I'm glad you're so confident its not stressed. It's helpless to escape threat and it knows it. Maybe that's why it remains calm. Why you'd allow a strange dog anywhere near it beats me.

Of course he has better instincts than a domestic rabbit. He's a wild prey animal, even if he's been kept in a room for several years. People make assessments of captive wild animals all the time and plenty will tell you they know their animals backwards. When their preferred pets are big carnivores, you get to read their obituaries from time to time.

Mixing predators and prey is risky business. They are what they are and good luck is no substitute for good management. When predators kill their natural prey people should only be surprised it didn't happen sooner.

Same thing happens with dogs and horses. A dog gets maimed or killed by a prey animal reacting naturally and people are shocked. Lots of people are lucky lots of the time but its the animals that pay when luck runs out.

Edited April 25, 2011 by poodlefan

[BoStoNmAdNeSs]

I'm going to have to disagree with this. Sometimes dogs do the wrong thing, know it was wrong at the time and also know they'll get in trouble as soon as you see 'it', be it the hole in the lawn, the glove or whatever he's moved or the couch he sat on etc. Since starting work full-time, my dogs' reaction to my home coming is an extremely reliable means through which to determine whether he's been naughty or not. If I come home and he's normal I know he's been good. If however he's crouched close to the ground and actively maintaining a bubble between us, well it's time to search for the crime. You can even tell if he's been confronted for that particular problem yet or not; like by my partner, bc he will act normal, and if you spy the crime instead of looking super sad and sorry, or making a run for it, he just ignores it. Sure enough, everytime he's done this, Dan has confirmed he's already been told off.

So it would seem he knows exactly what he's doing, and just chooses to offend anyway.

I agree with your post.

[mac'ella]

The worst dog we ever owned as far as killing other animals was a std dachshund which would kill any thing he could get hold of, but he was ok with our cat.My boxer was killing blue toungues he found in the yard then when we came across one when walking I picked it up and made him stay, then calmly held it near him and praised him when he didnt attempt to harm it, then I let it go and he just watched it crawl, off since then theres been no more casualties in our yard.I think he saw them as a threat and once reasured has left them alone

As for hutches you can buy good metal ones with a slide on lid which if pinned are entry proof you can fit a weld mesh type wire as well which should have as many rivets as posible.I have some stainless steel 1/2 '' barrier wire (used in multi story construction) which you need an angle grinder to cut.

Most avairy manufacturers have a good range and can fit heavier wire if asked.