Dog Killed The Guinea Pigs - Opinions, Advice, And Friendly Ears Neede

[dastardlyboo]

To answer some of the questions:

*It's quite likely they died of fright

*We are sure it was the dog, because of the dog's head sized hole in the chicken wire of the hutch that was more than 10 feet from where it started (like it got caught on his head and he had to back up to get it off)

* the piggies weren't laid out per se - just close together.

And for the record, the dog wasn't beaten. He was smacked. I appreciate that some people disagree with smacking dogs, and it's not my preferred method of achieving discipline - but it wasn't abuse.

[huski]

dastardlyboo, I am in no way saying that you abused your dog but hitting him for following natural instinct well after the act is pointless.

[poodlefan]

And for the record, the dog wasn't beaten. He was smacked. I appreciate that some people disagree with smacking dogs, and it's not my preferred method of achieving discipline - but it wasn't abuse.

The smack I don't have an issue with - but the dog would not have related it to the GP's death. Its the same issue as smacking the dog when you find a puddle of wee inside - the dog won't associate the aversive with the behaviour so long after it happened.

I dont want to be gruesome but a GP shaken hard would die almost instantly and be completely intact. I doubt they died of fright. Take that as a good thing - death would have been quick.

Edited April 25, 2011 by poodlefan

[dastardlyboo]

I think he did understand THAT getting the guinea pigs was wrong.

I'm totally confident you're wrong. Apparently this means I'm "unfriendly".

Your dog will know he's in trouble. He won't know why. He'll be reading your body language and be somewhat confused by it now.

I hope the shock passes soon and you can view this as the tragic accident it is.

I don't think that disagreeing is unfriendly. I understand and was prepared for the finger pointing and bad mummy comments. I feel like I let the piggies down and enabled my dog to do something that would upset us. If I could go back in time, I wouldn't have made that mistake. However being harsh with my partner when he is sad about the piggies isn't being supportive of him. As I said, he has relented about the dog, because he knows how attached I am to Joss and doesn't want me to be any more upset today. He's a good guy - just doesn't understand about dogs.

It's funny isn't it, that some people credit dogs with too much intelligence and understanding of human ways. They are such good companions in SO many ways - adapt to human lifestyles SO well, that when they do DOGGIE things, it just throws us for a loop.

[dastardlyboo]

And for the record, the dog wasn't beaten. He was smacked. I appreciate that some people disagree with smacking dogs, and it's not my preferred method of achieving discipline - but it wasn't abuse.

The smack I don't have an issue with - but the dog would not have related it to the GP's death. Its the same issue as smacking the dog when you find a puddle of wee inside - the dog won't associate the aversive with the behaviour so long after it happened.

I dont want to be gruesome but a GP shaken hard would die almost instantly and be completely intact. I doubt they died of fright. Take that as a good thing - death would have been quick.

Yeah, understood about the piggies.

[Erny]

Hi Dastardlyboo. I think you've taken the content of the posts very well, but that's not to suggest the posts have been wrong or nasty (as some might be thinking) but perhaps simply not the opinions you might have been hoping for.

I think he did understand THAT getting the guinea pigs was wrong. Like I said, he is a clever dog.

I would very strongly assert that you are absolutely wrong in this instance. Catching him in the act would have been a different kettle of fish. Your dog would be clever enough to know your partner was angry though. And generous enough to forgive him .

RIP GP's - as PF suggests, their ending was probably very swift and in that thought we can be thankful.

[persephone]

You are not a bad 'mummy' - you are a dog owner who simply made a mistake - same as your OH.

yes, dogs showing their animal side ..their strength, drive and basic behaviour, when we sometimes see them as 'children' can be a jolt!

I hope your stepdaughter also understands that this is what often happens with dogs & small animals...

[poodlefan]

It's funny isn't it, that some people credit dogs with too much intelligence and understanding of human ways. They are such good companions in SO many ways - adapt to human lifestyles SO well, that when they do DOGGIE things, it just throws us for a loop.

Yep, there's a little wolf in all of them. Sometimes when you see that predatory instinct and its results or you see aggression it can be shocking.

You said he's a terrier cross - SBT? Remember what terriers were mostly bred to do and you might be able to see this as exercising the instinct to do what his ancestors were selectively bred by us to do - to kill vermin. It's just unfortunate the the rodents he killed were pets.

[raz]

If the little gwinnies were laid out, it wasnt your dog that killed them.

[corvus]

I've seen animals killed by dogs that haven't had much of a mark on them. If the dog shakes them all sorts of horrendous things can happen inside their bodies with not much indication on the outside. I don't really understand why it should matter whether the dog was playing or killed the piggies deliberately. One of my dogs in particular used to get excited every time I did anything with my pet rabbit. She may as well have not existed when I wasn't interacting with her, but when I was he would get more and more excited and want to nip at her. To me, if he was left alone with her there's a good chance he would have treated her like a toy at first, but if he killed her, probably by accident, my guess is the next rabbit he came across he'd kill faster. And the next, faster still. They learn what's for killing and what's for playing with. I watched my mother's dog become a practised killer over many years. He started off barking at potential prey and now I couldn't even have him on my property because I have a pet hare. I am not convinced there is any cage in the world that could ward him off indefinitely. I have seen him tear a hole in a garage wall going after a possum, and he's only a 10kg dog. If he comes here he is inside or on a leash at all times.

We all make stupid mistakes and do things we don't think are a great idea that then turn out not to be. My hare broke his leg because he could fit it through the bars of his cage. I was already in the process of designing a safer home for him when it happened, but too late. We have a two degrees of separation rule in our house. The dogs have a closed door and a locked hare enclosure between them and the hare most of the time. My dogs are not very predatory, which is why they are allowed just one degree of separation in some circumstances under supervision. If I'm opening that cage door, though, they are inside no matter what. When my rabbits lived with my mother's dog the two degrees of separation rule saved them a couple of times when someone left a door open or didn't realise the rabbits were out. My last dog mixed freely with the rabbits under supervision, but she didn't really have prey drive to speak of. She avoided them for the most part. I think we just have to be aware of what our dogs might do and make sure we manage the situation accordingly. It is a hard lesson, but now you know what Joss might do, so you're well prepared to manage those tendencies.

[BMAK]

i once was in the position of your dog i feel ..read on haha

i was at my aunty's farm when i was young and little playing with my younger cousin, they happened to have many GP's young and old big and small.

We got one biggie out, sat on the ground and put our feet together to make a diamond shape let it run around corner to corner fedd it some carrot and then started to pass the GP to each other on the ground and by air gently (we thought) at the time we thought we where playing and having fun with the GP , well it went limp and it's eye's turned red..you can guess what happened.

we didn't know at the time that what we had done caused it's death, after we told the truth of what happened we got yelled at by our parents for something we considered normal childs play. as i feel your dog has done not knowing it's own strength and drive, poor GP i deffinately know better now.

[stormie]

If the little gwinnies were laid out, it wasnt your dog that killed them.

Can you explain this for me? Orbee hasn't killed anything except his toys, but he tends to be what I refer to as a 'hoarder' in that when he takes his toys outside, he takes them to the same spot and puts them together. Do you mean it's a Terrier thing to NOT do this? Or is Orbit just.... um.... you know...

[raz]

If the little gwinnies were laid out, it wasnt your dog that killed them.

Can you explain this for me? Orbee hasn't killed anything except his toys, but he tends to be what I refer to as a 'hoarder' in that when he takes his toys outside, he takes them to the same spot and puts them together. Do you mean it's a Terrier thing to NOT do this? Or is Orbit just.... um.... you know...

Orbit isnt a terrier, lovey. A terrier would shred it, not lay it out

[Aidan3]

I don't really understand why it should matter whether the dog was playing or killed the piggies deliberately.

There was some concern about the cats. I would have more concern about a dog who had killed a GP deliberately than one who was playing and killed it by giving it a heart attack. That was why I suggested checking over by a hunter or vet, any internal damage should be apparent to someone who knows what they are looking for. If the GPs were killed deliberately, I would seek a professional opinion regarding the cats (although the risk is probably not high if he has been well socialised with cats).

[Kirty]

Our dogs killed our rabbits last year when they somehow escaped their hutch. I was DEVASTATED and I did yell at the dogs and leave them outside that night. I know its not rational, but I couldn't help it. Once I was over the initial shock and sadness, I didn't blame the dogs though. Dogs are predators, rabbits and guinea pigs are play. 'Playing' with a small fluffy animal is predatory behaviour.

[corvus]

I don't really understand why it should matter whether the dog was playing or killed the piggies deliberately.

There was some concern about the cats. I would have more concern about a dog who had killed a GP deliberately than one who was playing and killed it by giving it a heart attack. That was why I suggested checking over by a hunter or vet, any internal damage should be apparent to someone who knows what they are looking for. If the GPs were killed deliberately, I would seek a professional opinion regarding the cats (although the risk is probably not high if he has been well socialised with cats).

But would you be able to tell from looking at internal damage whether it was over-exuberant play or a kill? If the dog was playing and shook the animal to death, I would imagine it would look the same as if the dog shook the animal to death as part of a purely predatory motor pattern. Erik has shaken toys so hard he's torn them before, but he's never even tried to kill an animal. He watches mice and lizards run right under his nose. If he ever shook a piggie the same way he shook his toys in play, I bet it would be killed. There's a school of thought that dogs will learn what not to hunt as youngsters, so if they were brought up with cats and learnt they weren't prey, even if they go for other cats they didn't grow up with, they still won't go for their own cats.

Having said that, I just wouldn't take the risk if it were me. I'd be making sure the cats and dog were always supervised or the kitties had safe places and escape routes where the dogs couldn't follow. It seems sensible.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

And I'd like to smack all the stupid people that leave other types of prey animals to be preyed upon by predators.

RIP the little dog in the pound that I wished to rescue but was condemned to death by the authorities for killing a guinea pig. The only question I had was "WHO GAVE THE DOG ACCESS TO THE GUINEA PIG?"

Answer - the bloody owners.

RIP all the little animals that have and will continue to be preyed upon.

And before anyone makes a presumption about my likes and dislikes - I have owned and loved animals other than dogs.

[Aidan3]

I don't really understand why it should matter whether the dog was playing or killed the piggies deliberately.

There was some concern about the cats. I would have more concern about a dog who had killed a GP deliberately than one who was playing and killed it by giving it a heart attack. That was why I suggested checking over by a hunter or vet, any internal damage should be apparent to someone who knows what they are looking for. If the GPs were killed deliberately, I would seek a professional opinion regarding the cats (although the risk is probably not high if he has been well socialised with cats).

But would you be able to tell from looking at internal damage whether it was over-exuberant play or a kill?

No, but it's not unreasonable to consider that there may have been no shaking at all. They really can be frightened to death (heart attack). Play and prey are closely related, but there are play styles that wouldn't concern me at all regarding cats, but would kill a guinea pig. If there is no internal damage, then that's a really good sign. If there is internal damage, then a professional opinion would be helpful.

[shyfig]

We have a Border Collie, two cats, two guinea pigs and 3 mice.

Mice live in my oldest sons room...door ALWAYS remains closed.

Guinea pigs live inside at night in a very secure wooden hutch which is cat proofed and dog proofed.

We have an outside guinea pig cage which was an old chicken coop...heavy guage steel and 1 cm square aviary wire.

HOWEVER...we also have a Hidden fence (Link ) which not only keeps our BC from escaping the yard but also provides a nice 4 foot perimeter right around the yard in which our dog can't enter (or he gets a zap). In this safe area our Guinea pig hutch can be moved right around the perimeter of our 1/4 acre house block in safety. We transfer the guinea pigs from inside to outside and vice versa in a plastic and wire cat cage which they get into themselves as they have learnt the routine.

Our cats also have the benefit of the same perimeter being their outside "safe Zone" where they can sleep and roam without a worry about our BC chasing them (because he does!).

Inside I now have the house split in half so the cats have the huge kitchen and my bedroom where our dog can't access them. This is done with an internal Hidden Fence that works off Jed's collar the same as the outside Hidden Fence. (I can't put up gates and barriers becuase my house is very open plan). The loungeroom runs off the kitchen so he is able to see me easily and he has access to the boys bedrooms.

When I had my previous dog (a GSP) we had chooks so extended the previous Hidden fence around the perimeter of the fowl yard.

This may help you come up with some alternate ideas for the future if you choose to have more guinea pigs, fowls etc. I had planned this approach quite awhile before we got our latest dog as all our pets are important to us and this is the easiest and most reliable way for US to ensure that they are safe.

[corvus]

But would you be able to tell from looking at internal damage whether it was over-exuberant play or a kill?

No, but it's not unreasonable to consider that there may have been no shaking at all. They really can be frightened to death (heart attack). Play and prey are closely related, but there are play styles that wouldn't concern me at all regarding cats, but would kill a guinea pig. If there is no internal damage, then that's a really good sign. If there is internal damage, then a professional opinion would be helpful.

Ah, good point. Does the OP know how the piggies reacted around Joss usually? Would they squeal or run or show other signs of distress? Did she try to chase them? My boys sometimes bounce at my hare to make him run. It's not very predatory at all. He is frightened of them and especially dislikes Erik's barking, but he's about ten times more frightened of a dog that actually wants to eat him. He can tell the difference. He will calmly hold still and watch a dog that wants to play as long as it doesn't make any big and sudden movements, but a dog that wants to eat him sends him into a panic. It always interested me that he knew, because my domestic rabbit couldn't tell the difference. She reacted the same way to every dog. There may be a degree of habituation towards the dog by the piggies if they were regularly allowed to interact. Of course, a dog whining at them or benignly walking past is not the same as a dog digging at the cage and trying to break in. I find my hare lets me know when something is becoming habitually scary. He learns signals leading up to the scary event and starts bolting at those. Did the OP perhaps notice the piggies getting jumpy at all?