dastardlyboo Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 My Joss is a beautifully behaved staffy cross - everything that I could want in a dog. Today he killed my step-daughter's guinea pigs. He didn't maul them. We found them lying next to each other on the grass with barely a mark on them (one had a shallow scratch on his neck - but no spilled blood or horror scene). My partner is furious (understandably) and showed the dog the piggies and smacked him. I thought that was fair enough. He wants him to sleep outside in the kennel tonight, although Joss usually sleeps on the floor in our bedroom. We also have 4 cats. Although Joss sometimes attempts to "discipline" them, chases them away from his bowl etc... he's not rough, doesn't ever hurt them and seems to consider them a part of his pack. There is a little unease in the house. My partner is questioning whether he can be trusted with the cats - although he was lying out there on the deck with one of them as normal afterwards - so I think he'll be fine. I get the feeling that he saw the guinea pigs as a "game" - like it was a challenge to figure out how to get them and then when he did, I don't think he meant to kill them - as I said, they were virtually unmarked. The guinea pigs never lived inside the house, so that might be why he didn't see them as pack. I am cranky at myself and my partner because we weren't happy with the hutch we had for the piggies, and if we'd trusted our instincts on that, then perhaps this wouldn't have happened. I can't bring myself to blame the dog. He's still the same good dog who is so eager to please. I am sure he doesn't know why killing the guinea pigs is wrong, and given that we have no more guinea pigs, I don't see the point in punishing him further (by making him sleep outside) other than to appease my partners sense of justice. I know it probably sounds mean, but I am much sadder for my poor Joss than I am for the guinea pigs. I hate to see him so sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyntervale Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Oh I'm so sorry! I can understand your partner being upset. We had an accident with our chickens which resulted in the Afghans chasing one down and killing it. It is so hard at that moment to look at the dogs and feel all the love that you have for them, and it does take some time to remind yourself that dogs will be dogs and whether it is a chicken or a guinnea pig, it is prey to them and fair game if the opportunity arises. I hope your Step Daughter is ok and can understand in time that it was just an accident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 He's a DOG. They were prey. Smack your partner for considering punishing a dog long after the deed was done. Its utterly pointless. Either dont get any more guinea pigs or get them the equivalent of a Fort Knox hutch and put a fence between him and them. Personally I'd be going for the first option. Dogs and small mammals are an accident waiting to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kazads Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 My Joss is a beautifully behaved staffy cross - everything that I could want in a dog.Today he killed my step-daughter's guinea pigs. He didn't maul them. We found them lying next to each other on the grass with barely a mark on them (one had a shallow scratch on his neck - but no spilled blood or horror scene). My partner is furious (understandably) and showed the dog the piggies and smacked him. I thought that was fair enough. He wants him to sleep outside in the kennel tonight, although Joss usually sleeps on the floor in our bedroom. We also have 4 cats. Although Joss sometimes attempts to "discipline" them, chases them away from his bowl etc... he's not rough, doesn't ever hurt them and seems to consider them a part of his pack. There is a little unease in the house. My partner is questioning whether he can be trusted with the cats - although he was lying out there on the deck with one of them as normal afterwards - so I think he'll be fine. I get the feeling that he saw the guinea pigs as a "game" - like it was a challenge to figure out how to get them and then when he did, I don't think he meant to kill them - as I said, they were virtually unmarked. The guinea pigs never lived inside the house, so that might be why he didn't see them as pack. I am cranky at myself and my partner because we weren't happy with the hutch we had for the piggies, and if we'd trusted our instincts on that, then perhaps this wouldn't have happened. I can't bring myself to blame the dog. He's still the same good dog who is so eager to please. I am sure he doesn't know why killing the guinea pigs is wrong, and given that we have no more guinea pigs, I don't see the point in punishing him further (by making him sleep outside) other than to appease my partners sense of justice. I know it probably sounds mean, but I am much sadder for my poor Joss than I am for the guinea pigs. I hate to see him so sad. I have never been in this situation so don't know if I can offer you any real good advice. However, he will not know why you are making him sleep outside so it would not really be punishment as such. Even showing him the guinea pigs after the fact is too late - he would have needed to be caught in the act to let him know that what he was doing is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sas Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 (edited) Seriously....he's a dog, what did you expect. And hitting the dog after the fact is just pointless. Imagine being hit after the fact for something that is instinct to you....you wouldn't understand what the hell is going on. Sleeping outside int he kennel won't mean anything to the dog. Sorry guys but I think you both need to gain a better understanding of what dogs understand and what they don't. Edited April 25, 2011 by MEH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rozzie Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Do you know for a fact it was him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ams Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 You dog may have just been playing with the guinea pigs. They could have just died of fright at being picked up by the dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 i agree with MEH and PF, small mammals such as guinea pigs and rabbits are a dog's natural prey. To be perfectly honest it's your partner's fault for not making sure that the hutch was secure, so take him over to the hutch, give him a smack and make him sleep outside tonight because smacking your dog after the event and then leaving him out tonight is utterly pointless and grossly unfair to the dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pointees Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 I have 2 gundogs (Pointers), and 5 rabbits. Rabbits have their hutches during the night, where they have their food, water, hay and chew toys. This is when the dogs can have free run of the backyard, without me there. In the morning, the dogs and I go for a walk to our local park, or to a local off lead area that has creeks and open grass areas. Such a great spot in the mornings. The dogs then get some breakfast, and have a sleep in their crate, in the house. Mid-morning, the dogs get the back veranda, which is fenced off from the backyard, with a cute little swinging gate. While the rabbits get to play in their playpens on the grass. It really comes down to supervision and precautions if having dogs and small animals, but it can work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisovar Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Whilst it is very sad for your stepdaughter, dogs do see GPs as prey items and most dogs are fascinated by them. Those endearing little GP noises are just too attractive to dogs. SO as already suggested either no more GPs or fort knox to keep them in. Of course keeping both is possible but it means everyone being vigilant, very secure housing for the GPs and ensuring that children understand fully that the GPs need to be safely away from the Dog. Personally I found it easier not have GPs and such, although I understand the attraction for kids. If the dog has lived happily with the cats till now I wouldn't be too worried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 i agree with MEH and PF, small mammals such as guinea pigs and rabbits are a dog's natural prey. To be perfectly honest it's your partner's fault for not making sure that the hutch was secure, so take him over to the hutch, give him a smack and make him sleep outside tonight because smacking your dog after the event and then leaving him out tonight is utterly pointless and grossly unfair to the dog. I couldn't agree more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luffy4688 Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 As some as pointed out, punishing the dog long after he has did something is pointless. The dog will not be able to relate the punishment to the incident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiverStar-Aura Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 I agree with everything that's be said so far. Guinea Pigs, rats, mice, rabbits etc. are prey for dogs, cats, foxes etc so it's really no surprise that this has happened. You yourself has said that you weren't happy with the strength of the hutch and to be honest, a neighbour's cat could also have done this to your step daughter's GPs. The wounds you've described don't really scream vicious dog attack and seems more like the GPs being frightened to death by something that was playing with them. I also agree that making the dog sleep outside is a serious moot point because he's not going to know why he's out there. I'm really sorry this has happened and I hope you can all move on from it -- and hopefully Joss isn't punished too harshly for acting on instinct. But I'd definitely keep an eye on his interactions with the cats because again, cats and dogs are enemies and even the best of friends can have bad days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erny Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 (edited) I agree with PF's suggestion of smacking your partner. Your partner is assuming the dog thinks like a human. Instead, he should learn to think like a dog. My favourite saying is "Dogs don't perceive themselves as living in a human world. They perceive us as living in theirs." Think that way, and maybe you'll see it from your dog's pov. No point leaving the dog out tonight if it's about punishing for the GP's. All your dog will know is that you and your partner are angry with him. But he won't know what for - and because the punishment would not be clear, it won't help his relationship with you. The guilt lays with not having a secure GP Hutch sturdy enough to withstand a dog. My partner is furious (understandably) and showed the dog the piggies and smacked him. I thought that was fair enough. So, if we "think dog" here - what he's possibly learnt from that is that "Dog + GP's + Partner = Smacked Dog" ..... so maybe next time dog will destroy the evidence. Edited April 25, 2011 by Erny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Poor Joss .. did anyone see him with the GP's? he is still exactly the same dog you left this morning ... absolutely no reason to throw him outside ....he will have absolutely NO idea why you want him outside , none at all. Your partner perhaps needs to read some of these replies - maybe you can print them out , so he can learn about how dogs think,and not apply punishment as he would to one of his children Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W Sibs Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 i agree with MEH and PF, small mammals such as guinea pigs and rabbits are a dog's natural prey. To be perfectly honest it's your partner's fault for not making sure that the hutch was secure, so take him over to the hutch, give him a smack and make him sleep outside tonight because smacking your dog after the event and then leaving him out tonight is utterly pointless and grossly unfair to the dog. Pretty much what they said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuralPug Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 It is not impossible to train dogs and small rodents to live together. Having said that, I would never ever leave them unsupervised together, just as I would never leave a toddler unsupervised with dogs or cats. It is quite likely that he was just playing gently with them, but they, unaccustomed to a predator playing with them, have simply expired of shock. This is why, if you ever get small furry rodents again, get them used to the dogs by handling them (GPs) with the dogs at your feet etc and permit mutual sniffing to develop familiarity. How on earth was the poor dog to know what would happen? Don't punish the dog for your mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 If there's barely a mark on them then he probably didn't even mean to kill them, guinea pigs can't tolerate very much in the way shock or fright. If you are worried, a vet (or someone who hunts rabbit) should be able to tell you if they've been shaken and killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leelaa17 Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Max as a puppy killed one of my rabbits. My rabbit was reasonably young - not a year old yet and very quiet - my other rabbit bunny was a psycho and would bite and scratched anyone or anything that came near him - God bless him (RIP). In bunnys life he had been caught by max twice (once, bunny got out of the cage - the other time max got in - dont ask how - im STILL stumped). Bunny passed away from the unknown causes a few months back - he was a tough rabbit but had to put him down which was the hardest thing ive ever done in my life. One night I came home and went outside to check on the rabbits - pepper was lying on the floor next to the hutch - he wasn't necessarily ripped apart - but lets just say I will never get the horrific image out of my head. I screamed my lungs out and cried for hours - I couldn't look at Max the same way, OH went crazy but I told him not to bother because Max would have no idea what was going on. It only took me a day to forgive max - all along I knew it wasn't his fault - he didnt EAT pepper (the rabbit) he was simply trying to play - and in the process, pepper died and max got bored and left him alone. Don't blame your dog - I know, i KNOW it is hard to look at him right now but you already know (because you said so) that it wasn't his fault. He is EXACTLY the same dog as he was this morning. I am so sorry for your step-daughter. It is an extremely hard thing to go through - as I truly believe that even rabbits and GP's are part of the family (they were to me). I hope everything is ok. And I wouldn't worry about the cats - but I WOULD keep the supervised - dogs and cats and dogs and rabbits etc etc should always be supervised, I think. Hope you and family are ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Many years ago - we had a lab who used to find litters of farm cat kittens and play with them She killed quite a few . They weren't bitten/eaten.. just very slobbered on. Most of our dogs have ,at some stage of their life killed a chook/guineafowl . It happens...and , if it;s anyone's fault , then it is OUR fault , for not protecting the smaller critters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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