Jumping Issues

[aussielover]

Punishments make perfect sense to me. I don't know where I have EVER said anywhere on the entire internet or even to positive trainer friends that I would rule out using them or that I think they don't work. Do you? Because if you don't, you're putting words in my mouth, which I consider more rude than curious.

I said * perhaps* corrections don't make sense to you and you don't think they work. I didn't mean to put words in your mouth and definitely not trying to be rude

I guess I just misinterpreted your earlier posts about being cautious about giving leash corrections (due to previous experience) as being not confident in giving them. I apologise for the confusion , I know it is hard to convey tone through the internet but I definitely didn't mean to be rude

I find all types of training very interesting so thank you for answering my questions. I agree in theory that a leash correction may cause an aggressive response, so I understand your hesitation to use them, however, I personally found that under the instruction of an experienced trainer they were more effective in modifying my pups behaviour than reward training alone. I guess you use what is suitable for the individual dog though ;)

[corvus]

Punishments make perfect sense to me. I don't know where I have EVER said anywhere on the entire internet or even to positive trainer friends that I would rule out using them or that I think they don't work. Do you? Because if you don't, you're putting words in my mouth, which I consider more rude than curious.

I said * perhaps* corrections don't make sense to you and you don't think they work. I didn't mean to put words in your mouth and definitely not trying to be rude

I guess I just misinterpreted your earlier posts about being cautious about giving leash corrections (due to previous experience) as being not confident in giving them. I apologise for the confusion , I know it is hard to convey tone through the internet but I definitely didn't mean to be rude

It's okay, I just find myself getting increasingly surly about these sorts of discussions. I knew you didn't mean to be rude, but sometimes I think if I let someone know they are treading the line they might genuinely care and avoid doing it in the future. I would! I suspect some forum denizens somewhere in cyberspace hate my guts because I unknowingly crossed a line once and they think I was being deliberately nasty. And then I kept doing it because I didn't know. Anyway, I could have been a bit more polite about it. Sorry!

Incidentally, the possibility of unwanted associations is just one reason why I don't use leash corrections. Mostly I'm just a clicker trainer and don't see suppressing behaviour as generally being very compatible with my goal of having dogs that are confident offering behaviours. I look for solutions that support that over-arching goal and usually find them.

[LilBailey]

Somewhere in the last page I lost what I was going to add to the OP. Might be nice to keep the personal attacks away and have a healthy conversation about different techniques.

EVERY dog is different and EVERY dog reacts differently to corrections and reward. IMO this pup is just being an excited pup.

I will add that maybe back off a little on the distration and work up to it if you really want to succed in breakiong this behavour b/c really name any pup that doesn't get excited by the prospect of playing with someone new.

I second the books "Conrol Unleashed" and "Click to Calm" reading both at the momment and I have so many sticky notes poking out it looks like a school book. The idea of the "look at that" game is to get the dog to look at something and then look at you for reward. Then the dog has an automatic look at you when he see's something.

One last suggestion that I havn't seen but may have missed. What about a head collar? Even just as a back up to the normal collar while in training, A dog cant jump if he can't lift his head.

[jacqui835]

I need help, no matter what I try or do it ends up being pointless. I tell people before they meet echo to wait until he sits and if he gets up or jumps to move away, the end result -they come in and then let echo jump all over them while I am trying to regain control.. I am sick of it, and I am thinking the only solution I have is to just say no and prevent anyone from greeting him or patting him because at least then he cant continue the behaviour..

I am over it really, no one listens, no one even bothers to do as I request and Echos jumping behaviour just gets worse each time he meets someone who encourages it.. What the hell can I do?? I make him sit before the attention, but he anticipates it and gets so worked up that he ignores the stim collar and any commands the second his front feet move. I am seriously considering just preventing him from getting any attention anymore from strangers. Its just becoming a frustrating situation and I really cannot take it anymore.

We had a similar problem with a similar dog (another dobe). We went back to training, and I asked the instructors and a couple of other people there to help me. I told my dog not to jump, but if he did anyway, the people very firmly told him off, and made it a very unpleasant experience for him - almost gave him a bit of a fright. Took about 10 mins, and now he will only jump if asked to.

Then they learn that sure if people encourage and ask for it you can jump on them - and to be honest there are times when I ask him to jump on me and give me a hug. But it's no longer his default reaction, and he knows there can be negative consequences (not just from me) if he makes a mistake and jumps on someone who doesn't want it.

[poodlefan]

We had a similar problem with a similar dog (another dobe). We went back to training, and I asked the instructors and a couple of other people there to help me. I told my dog not to jump, but if he did anyway, the people very firmly told him off, and made it a very unpleasant experience for him - almost gave him a bit of a fright. Took about 10 mins, and now he will only jump if asked to.

Then they learn that sure if people encourage and ask for it you can jump on them - and to be honest there are times when I ask him to jump on me and give me a hug. But it's no longer his default reaction, and he knows there can be negative consequences (not just from me) if he makes a mistake and jumps on someone who doesn't want it.

What exactly do you think "don't jump" or "no" means to a dog?

Don't you think its easier for an animal to understand what's required of it rather than what isn't?

If you tell your dog to sit before allowing people to approach and get them to back away if it breaks the sit, dogs learn very quickly that no bum on ground means no greeting.

I've said before, I've seen a talented trainer get a dog doing this with 5 minutes of consistent reward for the right behaviour and withdrawal of the person for the wrong behaviour. No, the behaviour wasn't likely to have been completely extinguished but the fact is that the dog knew what behaviour was required, rather than what behaviour wasn't.

I really don't think its a good idea to be getting people to tell your dog off for a behaviour that as a handler it is completely within your power to control and correct. Why frighten a dog when you can give it a very clear picture of what is required of it. You'll never see me support any program of training that requires strangers to behave aversively or frighten dogs, ESPECIALLY for breeds with guarding instincts.

I thought your dog was a Dobe X by the way

Edited May 6, 2011 by poodlefan

[bedazzledx2]

Yay! The voice of reason!!! People don't seem to realise that dogs don't understand what not to do but they do very well if they are taught what to do! I would certainly not get strangers to tell my dog off...I will, however, ask them to be neutral or turn their back. The problem always arises when you have well meaning strangers who sabotage your training and say "oh its ok I don't mind" while giving your dog the attention its demanding! grrr. Thats when you have to go into management mode and not allow it.

We had a similar problem with a similar dog (another dobe). We went back to training, and I asked the instructors and a couple of other people there to help me. I told my dog not to jump, but if he did anyway, the people very firmly told him off, and made it a very unpleasant experience for him - almost gave him a bit of a fright. Took about 10 mins, and now he will only jump if asked to.

Then they learn that sure if people encourage and ask for it you can jump on them - and to be honest there are times when I ask him to jump on me and give me a hug. But it's no longer his default reaction, and he knows there can be negative consequences (not just from me) if he makes a mistake and jumps on someone who doesn't want it.

What exactly do you think "don't jump" or "no" means to a dog?

Don't you think its easier for an animal to understand what's required of it rather than what isn't?

If you tell your dog to sit before allowing people to approach and get them to back away if it breaks the sit, dogs learn very quickly that no bum on ground means no greeting.

I've said before, I've seen a talented trainer get a dog doing this with 5 minutes of consistent reward for the right behaviour and withdrawal of the person for the wrong behaviour. No, the behaviour wasn't likely to have been completely extinguished but the fact is that the dog knew what behaviour was required, rather than what behaviour wasn't.

I really don't think its a good idea to be getting people to tell your dog off for a behaviour that as a handler it is completely within your power to control and correct. Why frighten a dog when you can give it a very clear picture of what is required of it. You'll never see me support any program of training that requires strangers to behave aversively or frighten dogs, ESPECIALLY for breeds with guarding instincts.

[poodlefan]

One last suggestion that I havn't seen but may have missed. What about a head collar? Even just as a back up to the normal collar while in training, A dog cant jump if he can't lift his head.

How many handlers do you know whose hands are below the dogs's head when normally holding a lead? What's to stop a dog lifting its head wearing one?

A dog sure can jump wearing a head collar.. .it just means the head is rapidly jerked sideways as the dog hits the end of the lead. For a dog that jumps or lunges, a head collar is an unsuitable restraint IMO.

Gadgetry is no substitute for training. Training a dog not to jump up is not rocket science and not difficult if boundaries are conssitently applied to limit behaviour and the dog is consistently rewarded for doing the right thing.

This is so much easier to deal with in a young pup than a more mature dog. If you don't want your dog doing it as an adult, discourage it from day 1. So many people don't.

Edited May 6, 2011 by poodlefan

[LilBailey]

I'll clarify my suggestion as I didn't mean it in the way that it the way it has ben interprited.

A dobe pup in a sit would have it's head not far below hand hieght. While the dog is learning the correct way to greet someone it might (might depending on the dog and the handlers abilitys and strength) HELP the handler to keep control of the situation. If the dog has jumped and hit the end of the leash then it is to late, the idea of the headcollar is to prevent the jump in the firstplace.

A head collar of any type is no more a gadget than any other type of training aid if used correctly.

[jacqui835]

Yay! The voice of reason!!! People don't seem to realise that dogs don't understand what not to do but they do very well if they are taught what to do! I would certainly not get strangers to tell my dog off...I will, however, ask them to be neutral or turn their back. The problem always arises when you have well meaning strangers who sabotage your training and say "oh its ok I don't mind" while giving your dog the attention its demanding! grrr. Thats when you have to go into management mode and not allow it.

We had a similar problem with a similar dog (another dobe). We went back to training, and I asked the instructors and a couple of other people there to help me. I told my dog not to jump, but if he did anyway, the people very firmly told him off, and made it a very unpleasant experience for him - almost gave him a bit of a fright. Took about 10 mins, and now he will only jump if asked to.

Then they learn that sure if people encourage and ask for it you can jump on them - and to be honest there are times when I ask him to jump on me and give me a hug. But it's no longer his default reaction, and he knows there can be negative consequences (not just from me) if he makes a mistake and jumps on someone who doesn't want it.

What exactly do you think "don't jump" or "no" means to a dog?

Don't you think its easier for an animal to understand what's required of it rather than what isn't?

If you tell your dog to sit before allowing people to approach and get them to back away if it breaks the sit, dogs learn very quickly that no bum on ground means no greeting.

I've said before, I've seen a talented trainer get a dog doing this with 5 minutes of consistent reward for the right behaviour and withdrawal of the person for the wrong behaviour. No, the behaviour wasn't likely to have been completely extinguished but the fact is that the dog knew what behaviour was required, rather than what behaviour wasn't.

I really don't think its a good idea to be getting people to tell your dog off for a behaviour that as a handler it is completely within your power to control and correct. Why frighten a dog when you can give it a very clear picture of what is required of it. You'll never see me support any program of training that requires strangers to behave aversively or frighten dogs, ESPECIALLY for breeds with guarding instincts.

Maybe, but you need to read the OP's post again. The situation sounds like the same as the one I had. It is very difficult to stop everyone from coming over to your dog, especially, when, if like me, you like to take your dog everywhere with you. Therefore, they often get rewarded for the wrong behaviour and it's extremely frustrating. You can have a few people doing the right thing - ie not patting the dog until he sits nicely, but if you have even one person pat them when they jump well then they think they should just always try that approach - because it might be rewarded AND because it's fun for them.

So we had to introduce a negative response to unsolicited jumping - same as if he jumps on the couch without permission he knows he's in trouble (so they can obviously understand the concept of only being allowed to do things with permission). It was not frightening the dog so much as giving it a shock, and making it very clear that in some cases the behaviour (the jumping) was completely unwanted. He was doing it because he was excited and because he wanted affection and knew he could get it that way, as it had worked so many times before for him. My dog is not the type to do something to try and start a fight, so now that he knows that not everyone will like being jumped on, he doesn't do it. All I can say is it worked perfectly for us.

And what does no jump mean? It means don't jump... Dobes - at least my one, seem at least to be very capable of learning lots of different words. I can say to my dog, inside, outside out the front, out the back, get x toy, get your collar, no biting, get behind me, leave it, get behind me, get back, stay close, cross over, get off the road, quick, slow down, give me paw, give me other one, find x person, say hi to x dog (he learns their names too), careful (if I don't trust a dog and don't think he say hello like usual - he learned as a puppy that these were the dogs likely to charge and be antisocial), gentle (which I think he just thinks means lick or something but no bite and no paws), bring here etc etc etc - the list goes on. I would say most dogs would be able to learn what no jumping means.

But of course you need to work out the right training method for your dog - they all have unique personalities. This was just a suggestion as I had the exact same problem with the same breed and had managed to resolve it with the help of our training club.

[poodlefan]

Maybe, but you need to read the OP's post again. The situation sounds like the same as the one I had. It is very difficult to stop everyone from coming over to your dog, especially, when, if like me, you like to take your dog everywhere with you. Therefore, they often get rewarded for the wrong behaviour and it's extremely frustrating. You can have a few people doing the right thing - ie not patting the dog until he sits nicely, but if you have even one person pat them when they jump well then they think they should just always try that approach - because it might be rewarded AND because it's fun for them.

No it isn't. You simply tell them to wait until you have your dog under effective control before allowning them to approach. I do this all the time. Hell, we TEACH this at our dog club. We're dog owners, we don't run a petting zoo for the public.

So we had to introduce a negative response to unsolicited jumping - same as if he jumps on the couch without permission he knows he's in trouble (so they can obviously understand the concept of only being allowed to do things with permission). It was not frightening the dog so much as giving it a shock, and making it very clear that in some cases the behaviour (the jumping) was completely unwanted. He was doing it because he was excited and because he wanted affection and knew he could get it that way, as it had worked so many times before for him. My dog is not the type to do something to try and start a fight, so now that he knows that not everyone will like being jumped on, he doesn't do it. All I can say is it worked perfectly for us.

What does your dog do now when its out on walks and a stranger approaches? What has it learned is the appropriate way to greet someone? Or does it simply not try to greet people now. Facts are that your dog learned to jump because you allowed it.. so why should the dog be corrected for something he'd been taught?

Dobes - at least my one, seem at least to be very capable of learning lots of different words.

I hear a lot that dogs "understand a lot of words". I'll set a test for that. I want you to turn your back on your dog and use any of the cue words you swear he understands. See how many actions he'll give you if he can't read your facial expression and you're not cueing him with body language. My guess is you're in for a shock.

Edited May 6, 2011 by poodlefan

[LilBailey]

It would be noce if we could stop people from talking to our overly friendly dogs but it can be hard for some people to do that. I'm a bitch so it is no problem for me to tell someone to leave my dam dog alone but not everyone is like that.

To the OP I'd love to here what your trainer says about the issue. After all they are the ones that knows you and your dog.

[poodlefan]

It would be noce if we could stop people from talking to our overly friendly dogs but it can be hard for some people to do that. I'm a bitch so it is no problem for me to tell someone to leave my dam dog alone but not everyone is like that.

To the OP I'd love to here what your trainer says about the issue. After all they are the ones that knows you and your dog.

People can't talk to dogs they can't reach.

I'm more in favour of applying corrections to stranger wanting to encourage my dogs to jump than do punish my dog for being encouraged to do so.

You don't have to have balls of steel - you can politely ask people to wait while you ask your dog to sit and if they can't do that, you walk away. Something along the lines, of "I'm still teaching him to be poite with strangers - can you give me a minute" is hardly offensive. ANd if your dog can't do what's required then you simply say "no, sorry" and leave it at that.

What's the point of all these messages and lessons about getting children to ask first if they can pat a dog if no adult is going to model that behaviour?

Edited May 6, 2011 by poodlefan

[Red Fox]

No it isn't. You simply tell them to wait until you have your dog under effective control before allowning them to approach. I do this all the time. Hell, we TEACH this at our dog club. We're dog owners, we don't run a petting zoo for the public.

I disagree on this. It SHOULD be easy, but it isn't always. Some people are just idiots unfortunately.

Sure, you can always walk away or keep your distance, you can body block, you can say 'NO!'. Hell, I've been direct enough to shout at people before or tell them they are going to get bitten if they come any closer (with me body blocking them from my dog).

Yet there will always be someone who says "Oh it's okay" as they try to push their way around you and thinks they know better.

Personally I no longer have a problem with telling these people to f*** off, but not everyone is that direct

*ETA my situation is probably different though as my dog does not want the attention.

I hear a lot that dogs "understand a lot of words". I'll set a test for that. I want you to turn your back on your dog and use any of the cue words you swear he understands. See how many actions he'll give you if he can't read your facial expression and you're not cueing him with body language. My guess is you're in for a shock.

Agree. I certainly think dogs can learn many, many commands. But a lot of the time they are simply reading your body language

Edited May 6, 2011 by SecretKei

[jacqui835]

I don't know, sometimes I didn't even see the person coming. We would be sitting at a cafe, and the next thing you know there would be people patting our dog and literally encouraging him to jump on them (when he was a puppy). Very often people patted him without asking, because as they approached, his ears went back, he put on his cute face and his body language was screaming - I want to meet you. I guess I wasn't comfortable yelling at people from afar who 'might' come over to my dog not to come near and not to touch him. SecretKei's post explains this better than I could. Difference is I didn't tell enough people to f* off and consequently a fun behaviour was rewarded.

Now when people approach he still looks extra happy but he doesn't jump. No-one ever hurt him or was cruel, and because it was all done by trainers and people at the training club, the no jumping command was always followed through with a, oh good boy now I'll pat you etc. So he's not scared of people, he just now knows that jumping on strangers isn't a good idea, because they might get angry. The way the trainers did it btw (in case the op is interested) was to stand straight, hands at their side and just say no jumping quite firmly and loudly, the second he even looked like he was about to jump.

I tried the commands thing and he seemed to get most of them. But I don't know what you mean. I'm currently sitting on the couch with my laptop on my lap, and the dog is on the floor. If I say, "want to go out the back?" he goes to the back door, sit he sits whether he can see me or not, leave it - he leaves it even though he's looking at the item and not at me etc - so I'm not sure if that's what you meant or if I'm supposed to be out of the room or something. Point is, he can be mouthing us and we can say, no biting and he stops. He can be kind of quivering ready to jump and we say no jumping he stops.

And the real point is, we had a dog who jumped on people who grew to be 40kg and was rewarded intermittently for the behaviour (which is the way to make a behaviour even stronger). We introduced a negative consequence for the jumping action, but not for interacting with people. We now have a dog who still loves to interact with people but who no longer jumps as a way of greeting.

[corvus]

Frankly, I don't shout at people I don't know unless they nearly kill me or something. So my dog sometimes gets rewarded for jumping on people. Well, that's the price I pay for taking them out and about. I'd rather train for it than spend the rest of my life shouting at people before they can mess up my training. It might take longer, or be harder, but at least people don't hate me because I was mean to them once. Seriously, what if one day my dogs somehow are out on the road on their own and one of those people I shouted at drove past and saw them? Think they'd stop and get them to safety? Maybe if they are a lot more considerate than I thought they were when I shouted at them. Now say I just let it go, but explained what I was trying to achieve so they might think twice before doing it again. Would they be more likely to stop and get my dogs to safety? What if they knew there was an aggressive dog in the park and they saw me. Would they approach me to warn me, do you think? It's worth thinking about. People are generally considerate and helpful, even when they don't appear to be they think they are. But they are unlikely to stick their neck out to help someone who has been rude to them.

[koalathebear]

No it isn't. You simply tell them to wait until you have your dog under effective control before allowning them to approach. I do this all the time. Hell, we TEACH this at our dog club. We're dog owners, we don't run a petting zoo for the public.

I used to believe this, too and luckily for me, when we're out with our dogs, most people are very understanding and receptive when we ask them not to pat the dogs until they are sitting. The thing is, I agree with corvus that we can't always control the environment around us. For instance, I've been so careful to only let my dogs socialise with well-behaved dogs from the dog obedience club but as bad luck would have it, the first time my dog was attacked was during an agility class .... Last Thursday, when Elbie was sitting waiting for instructions near the tunnel, a Ridgeback dashed away from his owner, lunged at Elbie for no reason and started growling and snapping at him. This is a dog that passed the test to get into agility i.e. sitting in a small circle with other dogs, being in close proximity to other dogs, being recalled around other dogs - it's the same dog that Elbie's been having agility class with for the last three weeks with absolutely no incident. For me, it really demonstrated that even in a relatively controlled environment with well-behaved dogs and people, things can be unpredictable. For my part, if I believe that someone is going to ignore my instructions and still pat my dogs when they're not sitting, I'll just walk away with the dogs. I try really hard to avoid putting myself in situations with my dogs that I can't control.

[poodlefan]

In all the time I've walked my dogs, I have never had to shout at anyone to stop them patting my dogs before I was ready (owners of dogs pulling them towards my dogs are another matter). You don't have to be rude to get the message across.

I genuinely don't understand how people can suggest they are helpless to stop their dogs jumping on people. I can tell you that no dog can jump if you're standing on its lead or have the lead tight for a start.

Perhaps I'm hypervigilant - people don't tend to sneak up on me. I never walk my dogs wearing earphones and I read folk from a fair way out

[corvus]

I genuinely don't understand how people can suggest they are helpless to stop their dogs jumping on people. I can tell you that no dog can jump if you're standing on its lead or have the lead tight for a start.

On leash is not a problem. You really can stop them from doing it IMO if they are on leash provided you are paying attention. Erik has a delightful habit of ignoring almost everyone and then suddenly jumping on someone quite out of the blue. There's no "Hmm... might check that guy out." It's just "DUDE! Oh... I thought you had something for me." He's a wee bit optimistic. But it's not really a problem because you still have the power to pull him up before he makes contact. The problem for me at least is off leash. Most people Erik will walk right past, but if we are talking to someone and they get food out for their dog, it becomes a race to get to him or get his attention, or quickly communicate to the person to tell him to sit or down before he jumps on them. They don't have to actually give him any food for the behaviour to be reinforced. Just getting closer to it is enough for him. This problem is certainly persistent entirely because we aren't very good at remembering that when we're speaking to other people they sometimes whip out treats, and a little that Erik doesn't reliably respond to a 'down' from us when he's staring into someone else's soul trying to will them to hand over their goods. Selective attention is a pain sometimes. But if we can't train ourselves we may as well forget about that method for training the dog.

Anyway, the solution I'm working on is people with food=corvus has food for you right now! Quick, come get it! I'm just trying to teach him that people with food is a cue to orient to me. I can manage that one because the problem is the cue for me to cue Erik. I would cautiously say it's working. I only started a few weeks ago and so I've only had a couple of chances to work on it, but Erik being a fast learner and highly attentive to positive cues appears to have caught on. Meanwhile, I'm doing "leave it" remedial work. A good "leave it" solves a lot of problems!

[jacqui835]

In all the time I've walked my dogs, I have never had to shout at anyone to stop them patting my dogs before I was ready (owners of dogs pulling them towards my dogs are another matter). You don't have to be rude to get the message across.

I genuinely don't understand how people can suggest they are helpless to stop their dogs jumping on people. I can tell you that no dog can jump if you're standing on its lead or have the lead tight for a start.

Perhaps I'm hypervigilant - people don't tend to sneak up on me. I never walk my dogs wearing earphones and I read folk from a fair way out

It's true, maybe I had him on too long a lead. He was right at my side, and I was teaching walking with a loose lead. I didn't want to have to pull his lead really tight every time we saw a person because I was worried that would teach him to be tense and on alert every time a new person approached. Now well to be honest, if he doesn't listen to me, you have to really get in there and make quite a scene to stop him jumping, because he's incredibly strong and will pull you along if you're just trying to hold onto the lead. What I used to do was grab him by the collar, yank it to the side, and say no. But it didn't work because whilst trying to get your dog under control, the other person is already patting your dog and laughing and saying it's fine. And you're trying to explain, no it's really not, what if he jumps on a physically impaired person or child

Look it's just one suggestion. I remember feeling quite hopeless about the whole situation myself and well it took 10 mins and my dog has not jumped on anyone for a couple of weeks now. He still loves meeting people, but damn just today I took him into the pet supplies store to get his home made deli food lol and the shop assistant who loves him actually got upset because she thought he wasn't happy to see her because he didn't try to jump on her. When she bent down and asked for kisses he went up and licked her face - he didn't hurt anyone, the shop was unscathed (he's knocked things over before from jumping which they found funny but I thought was really wrong), it was just a great outcome for me, and something that if the OP is desperate and feels like they've tried everything else (like I did - I had a dog who had completed advanced obedience but still jumped on people :s), well it's an option hey.

[alpha bet]

sorry for late post, I had begun to use alternate methods of distracting echo during walks, so far its working well, we have begun to use a squeaky tennis ball attached to a rope which when we approach a distraction and he begins to focus on a person or dog i pull it out and squeak it and then play tug with him once he gives attention, this has worked quite well and seems to be very effective in snapping him out of becoming fixated on dogs/people.

I have also started to do random things during the walk to keep his attention and make it more enjoyable for him and me - eg. running over to a fallen tree and checking it out "oh look at this!"*amazed voice* this helped maintain alot of attention from him.

we are going to continue using these kinds of methods and work on neutralizing him to everything gradually

Kyliegirl,

There is an old saying that has been around the horse world for many years (I think it was Tom Roberts who wrote it). "Bigger Brain or Bigger Bit"

It related to the many horse riders who where having trouble controlling their horse and would go and get a bigger/strong/harder bit (or some other fancy gaget) to try and solve the problem. (Sounds a little like the discussions that have been run away with here). Whereas really the first thing you need to do is get your brain going and trying to see what might be going on and see if you can alter behaviour by thinking about the problem.

Sounds like you have started on that path by offering your dog alternatives that can make working with you fun and interesting for the dog. Your dog is young and he needs the stimulus you are now offering.

Congratulations on recognising and thinking thru your problem.

Best of luck and I would love to know how things progress.