Jumping Issues

[corvus]

any reason why you cant use a correction chain? As soon as he jumps or lunges give him a correction. If the stim isn't working then up it, all you're doing is building the dogs tolerance if you stim and he ignores it. Sounds like you're just going the long way round. COrrect for bad, reward for good.

Yes, the reason because you using the chain on the dog making you a bad person, must be using the clicker and the treat then makes you good person is what happening on training today?

I just love this notion that somehow positive reinforcement is more so the trainer can get warm fuzzies than for the benefit of the dog. What if I suggested corrections are more so the trainer can get their little control rush and feel like they are superior to something for a moment than for the benefit of the dog? There are human psychoses to every aspect of training. If you think you're only doing something for the dog then you need a reality check. We all try to make decisions that make us feel good. I certainly do things to dogs they don't like, but you know, it doesn't float my boat so I don't talk about it much. I do like to do things to dogs that they like. And so I find excuses to do just that. Even when the dog is annoying me or frustrating me. I've learnt when I'm unlikely to be able to make it work and decide then if it's something that matters to me so much I'd be willing to do something unpleasant to my dog. But the more I look for excuses to use positive reinforcement, the more I find ways to make it work.

[Nekhbet]

not every dog needs a prong collar, nothing wrong with a martingale or check chain. If your dogs drive is that precarious that one correction is going to shut it down I would be reconsidering your training anyway.

[Red Fox]

This is the harness that Erny is refering to - D&T Works: http://www.k9pro.com.au/products/Dog-Harness-DT-WORKS.html

You can then attach patches with whatever suits you -GIVE ME SPACE, do not pet <LI>Do Not Pet <LI>Service Dog <LI>In Training <LI>Ask To Pet

A harness won't "fix" the dog but it may help to make things easier with people in the street.

[Aidan3]

Yes, the reason because you using the chain on the dog making you a bad person, must be using the clicker and the treat then makes you good person is what happening on training today?

I would have thought if the OP was worried about that then she probably wouldn't have been using an e-collar?

[JoeK]

not every dog needs a prong collar, nothing wrong with a martingale or check chain. If your dogs drive is that precarious that one correction is going to shut it down I would be reconsidering your training anyway.

I am in disagreement that a dog needs to be at level to wear the prong. If the dog needing check chain or the martingale, the prong is better tool and nicer on the dog, far less error can be made on the prong from bad handling and checking chain probably worse tool of all in my opinion.

Joe

[poodlefan]

I honestly dont' know why anyone is talking about prong collars when its dead easy to show the dog what's required and to keep it away from idiots who won't do what they're told in the meantime.

Teaching appropriate behaviour for greeting people is a specific lesson for pet owners at my dog club.

This could probably be ironed out in half an hour with a decent trainer assisting. I've seen a very talented one sort it in less than halfl that time. Getting help sure beats a frustrated owner feeling like they've lost hope with such a young dog.

Save the big guns for behaviours that require them I say.

Edited April 28, 2011 by poodlefan

[fuzzy82]

I wouldn't use a leash correction on a puppy around strangers. He is still developing, the last thing you want is for him to associate strangers with getting corrected. I can't believe you have been using an e-collar on him either. I thought the golden rule for puppies was to make every interaction with a stranger a pleasant one.

If he can't handle having people walk up to him without jumping up, don't let people walk up to him. Keep him at a distance where he is below threshold. Play 'look at that' below threshold. Gradually move closer to the stranger, maybe have the stranger walk in a big circle around him while rewarding him for remaining in a sit (once he gets to this point and is BELOW THRESHOLD).

You can't train a dog that has lost his mind in excitement, they are not trainable in that state of mind. You need to stay below threshold.

[kyliegirl]

sorry for late post, I had begun to use alternate methods of distracting echo during walks, so far its working well, we have begun to use a squeaky tennis ball attached to a rope which when we approach a distraction and he begins to focus on a person or dog i pull it out and squeak it and then play tug with him once he gives attention, this has worked quite well and seems to be very effective in snapping him out of becoming fixated on dogs/people.

I have also started to do random things during the walk to keep his attention and make it more enjoyable for him and me - eg. running over to a fallen tree and checking it out "oh look at this!"*amazed voice* this helped maintain alot of attention from him.

we are going to continue using these kinds of methods and work on neutralizing him to everything gradually

[Aidan3]

sorry for late post, I had begun to use alternate methods of distracting echo during walks, so far its working well, we have begun to use a squeaky tennis ball attached to a rope which when we approach a distraction and he begins to focus on a person or dog i pull it out and squeak it and then play tug with him once he gives attention, this has worked quite well and seems to be very effective in snapping him out of becoming fixated on dogs/people.

Good solution! Now that you have a high level reward, have a look at the Look At That game videos on YouTube, it would be a great way to move from distracting him to rewarding him for being able to keep his head.

[Nekhbet]

I wouldn't use a leash correction on a puppy around strangers. He is still developing, the last thing you want is for him to associate strangers with getting corrected.

ahh I was waiting for that old wives tale to pop up now tell me that doing that will make a dog really aggressive or terrified in the long term.

The point is dog gets corrected for lunging/jumping, not yelled at, corrected with a collar. The owner then shows the dog calmly what is wanted and the dog is rewarded. If the dog goes to repeat the unwanted behaviour after being shown what is wanted it gets a correction. Has nothing to do with the stranger, dogs are not that stupid.

Plus a prong on a pup ... not really that warranted. Some dogs do decide to throw tantrums and death rolls in prongs because the new sensation just overloads them.

[corvus]

I wouldn't use a leash correction on a puppy around strangers. He is still developing, the last thing you want is for him to associate strangers with getting corrected.

ahh I was waiting for that old wives tale to pop up now tell me that doing that will make a dog really aggressive or terrified in the long term.

You can't force a dog to associate a correction with one behaviour and not a stimulus or stimuli or even multiple behaviours. That's the danger of using punishments. If you won't acknowledge it that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If you know what level of punisher to use and are looking for the fallout so you can shape away from it if it's there then it can be a small risk, but to say it won't occur is a very bold statement. If it theoretically can occur, then it might.

[Nekhbet]

Corvus considering your own dogs are not really that controllable and you dont know what to do half the time I dont see why you're suddenly lecturing me about dog training. Considering you say yourself you dont know how to use corrections and wont, dont suddenly throw theory at me because you read it somewhere and it sounded good.

I've done what I type at least. When you get some real practical experience then come and tell me I'm wrong.

Edited April 30, 2011 by Nekhbet

[corvus]

Corvus considering your own dogs are not really that controllable and you dont know what to do half the time I dont see why you're suddenly lecturing me about dog training. Considering you say yourself you dont know how to use corrections and wont, dont suddenly throw theory at me because you read it somewhere and it sounded good.

Well you know you don't have to believe me, Nekhbet. You are a professional after all. There's no need to be rude just because I said I thought it was a bold statement. If you stand by it, then why can't you just state that? It's your prerogative.

Incidentally, I'm reading this great book at the moment called "Mechanisms of Animal Discrimination Learning". It talks a lot about selective attention and has been compiled by a couple of comparative psychologists. They back all their statements up with experimental data. Does that sound good to you?

D'ya think I've never tried a leash correction? That's cute. I didn't learn to be cautious about punishments from a book.

[aussielover]

I'm not trying to be rude just asking out of curiosity :D

Corvus, have you ever asked someone who does have experience with giving appropriate corrections (and achieves good results) to show you how to do them properly/effectively, seeing as you say yourself you are not confident to do them? Or do you just not believe in using corrections at all?

I have used leash corrections on my dog (in conjunction with rewarding for correct behaviour) under the instructions of experienced trainers and have found them to be effective, but I can see how it is important to get the timing and intensity right, without which you may have a reduced effect or possibly confuse the dog.

Perhaps corrections make no sense to you though (ie you think they don't work), but if they did, wouldn't it be good to get someone to demonstrate how to do it properly, rather than ruling out the use altogether?

I am really interested in drive training as the theory seems to make sense to me, but I have no practical experience in using this method, which is why I am seeing a professional to help me understand it better and use it with my dog.

[JoeK]

I wouldn't use a leash correction on a puppy around strangers. He is still developing, the last thing you want is for him to associate strangers with getting corrected.

ahh I was waiting for that old wives tale to pop up :D now tell me that doing that will make a dog really aggressive or terrified in the long term.

The point is dog gets corrected for lunging/jumping, not yelled at, corrected with a collar. The owner then shows the dog calmly what is wanted and the dog is rewarded. If the dog goes to repeat the unwanted behaviour after being shown what is wanted it gets a correction. Has nothing to do with the stranger, dogs are not that stupid.

Plus a prong on a pup ... not really that warranted. Some dogs do decide to throw tantrums and death rolls in prongs because the new sensation just overloads them.

This thoughts in my opinion is wrong I am sorry on the prong. The prong using properly has much less pull onto the leash for the effect, so on the checking chain you needing to yanking on the chain hard for the correction but on the prong giving gentle little tug do the same job is much better correction tool. Sometimes is better to put the best tool on the dog first instead of using 10 collars that not working to ending up on the prong anyway. Is better to using the prong first before the dog getting bad behavior and learning wrong from the collars not working.

Is not the collar causing the dog to the overload, is the other ending on the leash who does this, the handler is in control not the dog.

Joe

[JoeK]

I wouldn't use a leash correction on a puppy around strangers. He is still developing, the last thing you want is for him to associate strangers with getting corrected.

ahh I was waiting for that old wives tale to pop up :D now tell me that doing that will make a dog really aggressive or terrified in the long term.

:D You can't force a dog to associate a correction with one behaviour and not a stimulus or stimuli or even multiple behaviours. That's the danger of using punishments. If you won't acknowledge it that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If you know what level of punisher to use and are looking for the fallout so you can shape away from it if it's there then it can be a small risk, but to say it won't occur is a very bold statement. If it theoretically can occur, then it might.

No, this is why I am just working out how the correction is not working for some of the people. The dog is teached to assoaicte the corrrection with disobeying command, has nothing to with any stimulus. You tell the dog sit, he dont sit you tell him no and give him a correction for refuse to do command he knows. You teaching the dog the handler is his biggest distraction and he must listen to the handler in all circumstance otherwise he cop one is how the correction is done. You must making sure the dog knowing the command first then correction for disobeying. Is not just correction on the dog becuase he jump around, you have to give command when he jump around first. So he jump around on the bad behavior you give him a job, sit and he not sitting and still jumping then you give him a correcting for not sit, you dont giving the correction for the jumping is where is wrong becuase the handler doesnt know how to do correction training properly and they stuff it up and say this correcting isnt working is no good. If they correcting properly, is good and the dog he learning.

Joe

[Aidan3]

Sometimes is better to put the best tool on the dog first instead of using 10 collars that not working to ending up on the prong anyway. Is better to using the prong first before the dog getting bad behavior and learning wrong from the collars not working.

Is not the collar causing the dog to the overload, is the other ending on the leash who does this, the handler is in control not the dog.

Why is this so difficult? The handler is in control - exactly! :D If your dog can't greet someone without jumping all over them, don't let them greet anyone unless they are sitting. No special tools required. Sit = attention, jump = taken away, flat collar, martingale, check - whatever.

I know it's not always that simple, but this is a 6 month old pup. He hasn't had years to learn this and chances are his owner will figure it out pretty quick once she starts setting this up and using a leash.

[JoeK]

Sometimes is better to put the best tool on the dog first instead of using 10 collars that not working to ending up on the prong anyway. Is better to using the prong first before the dog getting bad behavior and learning wrong from the collars not working.

Is not the collar causing the dog to the overload, is the other ending on the leash who does this, the handler is in control not the dog.

Why is this so difficult? The handler is in control - exactly! :D If your dog can't greet someone without jumping all over them, don't let them greet anyone unless they are sitting. No special tools required. Sit = attention, jump = taken away, flat collar, martingale, check - whatever.

I know it's not always that simple, but this is a 6 month old pup. He hasn't had years to learn this and chances are his owner will figure it out pretty quick once she starts setting this up and using a leash.

Yes, this basics I agree, but when taking the dog away when he break the sit and jumping, he doesnt come away nicely, he still jumping and handler drag him away and the dog he out of control and taking a while to settle. Is the tool then using to take the drive of jumping and running for the greeting out of the dog for faster settle down is what the difference in the tooling makes. If the dog bouncing like the pork chop on a flat collar and try the pork chop on a prong is not pleasant and he thinking this not feeling so nice on my neck is much better when I settling so he settle faster and learning. If he playing I am stronger than the handler on the leash tug of war and thinking he pull the handler where he want to go because the flat collar he can handle the pressure, he need a collar he cant handle the pressure and back out of the pulling is how is working on the prong.

Many people have saying to me often, Joe, my dog is beautiful but only play up in the greeting say. But what I finding is the dog hes not beautiful at other times in the real, hes average so the leash control is not that good anyway, he sniff, he pull he doesnt listen but hes managing for the handler so the handler think is ok and only wanting to correct the bit he cant handle like the greeting. But what I do is saying ok, we start again and start correcting for the sniff, the pull and the minor things the doge he does wrong, we getting that right first soe the dog is beautiful, then we taking for the bigger distraction and the dog hes much better becuase is foundation is more beautiful than just average.

Joe

Edited April 30, 2011 by JoeK

[Aidan3]

Yes, this basics I agree, but when taking the dog away when he break the sit and jumping, he doesnt come away nicely, he still jumping and handler drag him away and the dog he out of control and taking a while to settle.

Yeah I can picture it, I've seen it hundreds of times. The handler is not in control, they are watching it unfold in exasperation.

You just walk off like there is no option but to follow. Every time you walk off do it like there is no option but to follow, don't stop and negotiate or motivate.

Again, 6 month old puppy here.

[corvus]

I'm not trying to be rude just asking out of curiosity

Corvus, have you ever asked someone who does have experience with giving appropriate corrections (and achieves good results) to show you how to do them properly/effectively, seeing as you say yourself you are not confident to do them? Or do you just not believe in using corrections at all?

Being cautious of using punishment is not the same as lacking in confidence. I have applied punishments very effectively myself. I know exactly when I want to use them and I expect strong results within 3-5 reps. I have not used leash corrections on my current dogs because I walk them on harnesses specifically to force myself to stop doing it. I had some awful habits when I crossed over from traditional training.

I have used leash corrections on my dog (in conjunction with rewarding for correct behaviour) under the instructions of experienced trainers and have found them to be effective, but I can see how it is important to get the timing and intensity right, without which you may have a reduced effect or possibly confuse the dog.

I'm not disputing that leash corrections may be very effective. All I said was that theoretically, leash corrections can act to increase the intensity of an aggressive response and therefore declaring it an old wives' tale is a bold statement.

Perhaps corrections make no sense to you though (ie you think they don't work), but if they did, wouldn't it be good to get someone to demonstrate how to do it properly, rather than ruling out the use altogether?

Punishments make perfect sense to me. I don't know where I have EVER said anywhere on the entire internet or even to positive trainer friends that I would rule out using them or that I think they don't work. Do you? Because if you don't, you're putting words in my mouth, which I consider more rude than curious. :p