Submissive Dog

[amy_h]

i have a lovely little cattle dog pup i was given christmas and am having a hard time training him because he is exceptionally submissive - to the point if he thinks he's in trouble he piddles himself and disappears under the house and i have to trick him into thinking i've gone inside to get him to come back out. I really love him, but am really struggling with finding a method that works. I've not ever really had a submissive dog, most of ine have been pretty average easy to train dogs, but hes really bad. He can be dog aggressive too (hes going to be desexed very soon). I want him to be a happy rambunctious pup!

So far he sits, comes (sometimes) heels, and passes me pegs from the peg basket (cutest trick ever to teach your dog btw) but when he does come its with his beely on the ground and a nervous tail shake - i've not ever intimidated him (though i have resorted to yelling for him to come out of sheer frustation)

Please help my little bloo!

[persephone]

Hi - a few questions for you

have you contacted the breeder of the pup? Are others in the line also submissive?

What cues do you think make him think he's in trouble?

What training methods have you tried so far?

Where do you live?

My suggestion would be to contact a recommended professional who will work with you and pup at home - and give you the tools to help .

If you tell us where you are - then folks on here will give you the name/s of someone trusted

[Guest Ams]

i have a lovely little cattle dog pup i was given christmas and am having a hard time training him because he is exceptionally submissive - to the point if he thinks he's in trouble he piddles himself and disappears under the house and i have to trick him into thinking i've gone inside to get him to come back out. I really love him, but am really struggling with finding a method that works. I've not ever really had a submissive dog, most of ine have been pretty average easy to train dogs, but hes really bad. He can be dog aggressive too (hes going to be desexed very soon). I want him to be a happy rambunctious pup!

So far he sits, comes (sometimes) heels, and passes me pegs from the peg basket (cutest trick ever to teach your dog btw) but when he does come its with his beely on the ground and a nervous tail shake - i've not ever intimidated him (though i have resorted to yelling for him to come out of sheer frustation)Please help my little bloo!

This won't help. Patience is the key. He needs time and patience to give him confidence. I agree with Pers. If you can tell us roughly where you live a GOOD trainer could be recommended. We have a few on DOL.

[amy_h]

Find me one in outback queensland (i live on a farm near longreach)

He's not a pedigree pup from a breeder as such, just a dog from another farm (and frankly im sure you know what their solution would be)

I realise patience is the key but i am only human it's not my intention to yell at him but when hes been stuck under the house for half an hour, it's awful hard not to get frustrated. as i said i'm only human.

The times he gets most fearful is when i ask him to come through the front gate - absolutely loses his business. have no idea why. he'll quite happily jump the fence beside it, but wont walk through the gate. sometimes i'll just get home and he'll be all piddly, he does live in our house yard with another pup, that i have since seperated the two, maybe she used to give him a towelling i dont know.

I'd love to know how to stop the beggar from licking but i know that's a submissive behaviour, i believe that when i work on his self confidence a bit more that will resolve the obsessive licking behaviour.

[persephone]

..Ok.. any chance you can get someone to photograph him ? when he is displaying this behaviour .. maybe coming thru the gate , and also with other dogs? Viewing body language is important .

when hes been stuck under the house for half an hour, it's awful hard not to get frustrated. as i said i'm only human.

Ok.. any chance of running netting around where he gets under?

if he's safe under the house- just leave him be.Let him come back out when he feels better.

he is sounding absolutely terrified...

he may well be a nervous dog - born & bred. IF he is also aggressive - and it is also fear based - he will not have a happy life at all.

desexing won't change fear aggression, AFAIK.

I have no real hints for you - just to IGNORE him if he starts to piddle etc - don't even LOOK at him. ONLY pat him /talk to him when he looks to be happy - whether it be passing pegs , or taking a treat from your hand , or just sitting in the sun

There are others on here who will be able to give good advice -

[fuzzy82]

What type of training method do you use? If you use the old fashioned hands-on molding (ie, to get the dog to sit, you push his butt down and say 'sit'), then a lot of dogs find that unpleasant and/or intimidating.

For overly submissive dogs I would recommend training hands-off with a clicker. So you never actually touch the dog, you just throw him a treat when he gets it right.

NILIF (nothing in life is free) is also really good for building confidence. A lot of people think NILIF is about asserting who's boss of the house, by making the dog do something for them before they will do anything for the dog, but it's actually nothing to do with leadership or dominance. By asking him to do something before you do something for him, ie, make him sit before opening a door for him, sit or down before putting the food bowl down, sit calmly while putting the leash on, sit at the door until released before going for a walk etc, you are actually teaching him how he can manipulate his environment to get what he wants, which builds confidence.

[Guest Ams]

Amy K9pro is based in NSW but offer long distance consults and training programmes. Steve is held in the highest regard on DOL and I am sure he will be able to help. Give him a call and see.

Given how submissive and scared this little fella is I'd be reluctant to offer advice as I may make it worse not better. Steve is definitely your best option. IMO.

http://www.k9pro.com.au/

[Jigsaw]

For a start look at the way you are approaching your dog. If you are approaching the dog head on and looming over the dog in a sensitive dog you may induce submissive behaviour and subsequent urination. Same with if you pet him on the top of his head or back. You are better off crouching down sideways to the dog and calling the dog into your space, not giving full eye contact, be very calm and quiet in your greeting. I would refrain from petting the dog as this often causes the submissive behaviour but use either food or a toy to reward the dog for coming towards you and keeping calm. To get him through the gate you could try getting him to chase a toy through the gate (providing it doesn't lead to a road or area that could be dangerous, you could put him on a long lead for safety), put a trail of food down for him to follow or look at teaching your dog how to target your hand. Block off access to under the house or just leave him be for a while then start playing with a favourite toy by yourself and make it sound like you're having a lot of fun, it might be enough to induce him out. Again if he comes out, keep it low key, throw the toy for him and praise him gently for coming out. Let him make the choice whether to come out or not, the more you try to make him out the more likely he will stay under the house. This is very general advice though as I haven't seen your dog.

In what circumstances is he dog aggressive?

[persephone]

Steve is definitely your best option. IMO.

http://www.k9pro.com.au/

yes!!

If you are having difficulty remaining calm, and this in turn is worsening the problem- definitely get in touch with Steve !

[amy_h]

For a start look at the way you are approaching your dog. If you are approaching the dog head on and looming over the dog in a sensitive dog you may induce submissive behaviour and subsequent urination. Same with if you pet him on the top of his head or back. You are better off crouching down sideways to the dog and calling the dog into your space, not giving full eye contact, be very calm and quiet in your greeting. I would refrain from petting the dog as this often causes the submissive behaviour but use either food or a toy to reward the dog for coming towards you and keeping calm. To get him through the gate you could try getting him to chase a toy through the gate (providing it doesn't lead to a road or area that could be dangerous, you could put him on a long lead for safety), put a trail of food down for him to follow or look at teaching your dog how to target your hand. Block off access to under the house or just leave him be for a while then start playing with a favourite toy by yourself and make it sound like you're having a lot of fun, it might be enough to induce him out. Again if he comes out, keep it low key, throw the toy for him and praise him gently for coming out. Let him make the choice whether to come out or not, the more you try to make him out the more likely he will stay under the house. This is very general advice though as I haven't seen your dog.

In what circumstances is he dog aggressive?

You got me right there - i'm guilty of making the mistake of treating them all the same, whereas he is definitely different from the other dogs. He's not like it all the time, just sometimes. I've worked out when he hears the door shut he comes back out and then i give him lots of pats and cuddles and he's happy then. He's strangely dog aggressive, he doesn't attack, i noticed it most when we had a friend pup stay here for 3 weeks and he would give her a good telling off about food, just a snarl and a snap but no follow through probably because shes yowl like a banshee. But hes most uncomfortable with other dogs being in 'his' space when they're confined to the cage for travelling (on back of ute/dog box) if the younger dogs start crying he'll give them a quick touch up almost like hes a discplinarian.

It's hard because i've always had dogs that will be so anxious to see you and boisterous and love all the rough cuddles and silly noises etc, and he's so different. I dont think it's extreme, just seems to me that way because its a contrast to the other 5 dogs all being that bit older and more outgoing.

Thanks for the trainer recommendations but OH would somply never allow it and he earns the money. He is definitely old fashioned, which might work on his boof headed bloody pig dogs but you cant tell them can you.

[amy_h]

Bloo update. Yesterday after i hopped off the net, i went out and played with bloo for a while, he was happy to just hoon around with the other dogs ( all our dogs live seperately from one another rather than one comunal group in the house yard). Bloo graduated to his own kennel out of the house yard last week and seems to be a much happier dog living away for the constant attention from the pups. i stayed outside, washed two of the other dogs, hung some washing, just let him be around rather than having to do something everytime he's near me. I left him be to come and go, and he willingly and waggingly came and went for about half an hour, i decided to see if he would attempt to go through the gate.

2nd attempt, he slid through on his belly piddling everywhere, but at least he got through! i didn't know if i should praise him or not, i didn't cos i didn't want to make a fuss of how he behaved, even though he went through, he still piddled and carried on. So i kept walking away and he dutifully followed me as he always does and when i noticed a change in his demeanour back to being a bit more relaxed, i sat down in the middle of the flat and gave him a big pat, he had a waggy tail and didnt go all weak kneed again so i was pretty happy with that.

We do have a lot of people come and go here, as we live on a busy working farm the property owners are always coming and going as are we adn we always have visitors, i have no idea why he was so fearful of the gate, maybe someone did shut him in it at one stage.

On our return to the yard he just popped over the fence before i had tim eto set up the gate for him, so well have another go this afternoon

He does seem more relaxed being seperate from the other dogs - he's happier to see them too when they have their big run around time together, maybe he just gets sensory overload.

How do i get him interested in toys - he has NONE. he'll watch other dogs play with them, yesterday i was rolling a tennis ball past him hoping hed at least sniff it, hed watch it ears pricked for a few moments and then go back to just being. I've no idea how to introduce toys at this age!

[Guest Ams]

Amy from what you've described Bloo is not dog aggressive at all. It is acceptable for a dog to reprimand another for sticking it's head in his food bowl, getting into his face etc. If he is not carrying through and giving the dog a whupping then he is simply warning he is not happy with their behaviour.

To get him interested in toys, take him where he can be separate from the other dogs and use treat toys that either hold food, or you can tie something yummy to it (make sure he doesn't ingest the string). It may be he has learnt that interacting with toys in the company of other dogs earns him a hiding. At this stage though I'd be more inclined to let him be until he stops being scared by all that happens around him. Some dogs just don't play with toys.

The gate stuff sounds more like someone has gone over the top in trying to teach him not to go through an open gate and has made him terrified of them instead.

[poodlefan]

i have a lovely little cattle dog pup i was given christmas and am having a hard time training him because he is exceptionally submissive - to the point if he thinks he's in trouble he piddles himself and disappears under the house and i have to trick him into thinking i've gone inside to get him to come back out. I really love him, but am really struggling with finding a method that works. I've not ever really had a submissive dog, most of ine have been pretty average easy to train dogs, but hes really bad. He can be dog aggressive too (hes going to be desexed very soon). I want him to be a happy rambunctious pup!

So far he sits, comes (sometimes) heels, and passes me pegs from the peg basket (cutest trick ever to teach your dog btw) but when he does come its with his beely on the ground and a nervous tail shake - i've not ever intimidated him (though i have resorted to yelling for him to come out of sheer frustation)

Please help my little bloo!

Park your temper.

If you cannot control it, walk away. It will set you back weeks if you don't get it under control. Don't train angry!

As the owner/trainer of a very submissive dog (originally), I'll tell you that the worst you can be with dogs like this in 'training mode' is neutral. Reward like crazy for any of the stuff you want and ignore the rest.

If he won't come out from under the house, go inside, have a cup of tea, come back out with a book and some treats and sit on the ground and read.. my guess is he'll come out to see what the hell you're doing. If he does, toss a treat to him. Then toss one a bit closer to you and so on. Keep it up and he'll be in your lap soon enough.

What was his immediate reward for going through the scarey gate? When you're training, reward him for even attempting things that frighten him.. it has to be baby steps. It took me 9 months to teach my little girl to do a full height agility A-Frame.

Edited April 18, 2011 by poodlefan