Gayle. Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 Missing an arm is NOT like missing a tail....[How do you know?] Are you serious............. we use both arms for nearly all our daily activities as humans, what do dogs use their tails for? how is it even similar? Balance. communication My dogs can communicate equally as well as one another. My NBT girl isn't keen on young dogs getting in her face and she communicates that extremely well to them without her tail. My boys both love meeting other dogs and both of them, tail or not, communicate their good intentions quite clearly to strange dogs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightgrace6 Posted April 18, 2011 Author Share Posted April 18, 2011 dogs communicate by barking too.. is debarking still legal? I can read my dobes mood by her tail, as short as it is.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 I never said dogs couldn't do without their tails, someone asked what they were used for. The tail is an extension of the spine. Muscles extend into the tail. Dock it and you've removed bone, nerve and muscle. No doubt the dog copes. I did read somewhere that there was a link between tail docking and increased likelihood of anal gland issues but I couldn't cite the study. I'm not anti-tail docking but I am anti the idea that a tail serves no purpose in a dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souff Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 Missing an arm is NOT like missing a tail....[How do you know?] Are you serious............. we use both arms for nearly all our daily activities as humans, what do dogs use their tails for? how is it even similar? These type of comparisons were all part of the hysteria and lies that were used in the propaganda to get tail docking banned in Australia. For those who are really interested the TAIL is NOT a LIMB, it is an extension of the spine and was never intended to be weight bearing like a limb. As for the BALANCE argument, this is another red herring used to whip up hysteria by those who don't like docking. It is not just a tail that aids in balance. A dog can be long tailed or short tailed and be clumsy, or it can be well balanced and agile. The build and weight of the dog has a lot to do with their ability to be agile and well balanced. I suspect also that what goes on in that part of a dog behind the eyes has a lot to do with how well animals can balance. If you have ever seen a dog with NO TAIL (born that way) concentrating on making its way carefully across a log over a flooded creek you will know what I mean. They don't have big claws like pandas or wombats to help them stay on a log, but can still get safely across. A goofier dog with tail wagging wildly might not do so well on the same log. Whoops, splash! There is a lot more to a dog than a tail. Souff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightgrace6 Posted April 18, 2011 Author Share Posted April 18, 2011 I just dont think it serves as much purpose as say a human arm.. which is *why* I chucked that question in my answer and alas whilst it serves some purpose (thanks for letting me know) it does not in any way serve dogs to the extent that an arm does for a human.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souff Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 I think changes in mental aptitude by selective breeding have had an impact.I'm sure some breeds are more stupid when it comes to innate dog behaviour / communication than other breeds. Some breeds even fail to recognise when they are in dire straights. Chihuahuas come to mind. Awwww, you stop picking on the Chis now ... its a very big world outside that handbag! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mim Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 (edited) Dogs show other animals how they are feeling by using their body language. This is not limited to use of a tail. There is facial expression, ear set, body stance, hackles up/down, mouth and tongue movement etc. A dog can communicate just fine with or without a tail. So there goes the thought of "a dog can't express itself without a tail" which I know I hear A LOT from the public. Edited April 18, 2011 by Mim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souff Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 I just dont think it serves as much purpose as say a human arm.. which is *why* I chucked that question in my answer and alas whilst it serves some purpose (thanks for letting me know) it does not in any way serve dogs to the extent that an arm does for a human.. Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souff Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 Dogs show other animals how they are feeling by using their body language. This is not limited to use of a tail. There is facial expression, ear set, body stance, hackles up/down, mouth and tongue movement etc. A dog can communicate just fine with or without a tail. So there goes the thought of "a dog can't express itself without a tail" which I know I hear A LOT from the public. Does "body stance" include dancing around on your hind legs, even though you don't have a tail, when you are just sooo pleased to see somebody? :p The best dancer here is 14 years old and yes, she was docked as a puppy. She could give lessons in communication .... and balance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poodlefan Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 There is a lot more to a dog than a tail. Souff Yep, but they come in damn handy for some things. Focus on what tails are doing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparkycat Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 I have had the blood splattered up my walls from the tail injuries, and I won't be doing it again.Docking a newborn pup is not cruel. Docking a damaged adult tail is a nightmare. It really shits me though that the experiences of those that have lived with and have a depth of knowledge and understanding of the breeds and are experienced enough to know how to dock quickly, cleanly and with no distress to the whelps are totally ignored and drowned out by cries of mutilation and cruelty. I cannot understand those that have decided a dog is difficult to read if docked. Are they serious? Apparently because we hear it over and over. There is more to a dog than its tail people, you are ones that keep saying it. I have never lived with a Rottie but I could sure tell if one was happy or riled. It is not ok to dock, but it is ok to rip out the reproductive organs of young pups before they have even had a chance to mature. If a tail is an import and vital part of a dog how can reproductive organs not be. I have had blood splattered all up my walls too by my sons nose bleeds but I am not going to push for the removal at birth of all boys noses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souff Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 Yep, but they come in damn handy for some things.Focus on what tails are doing Nice. From the way that some of them are pushing off from the box, I would venture to suggest that the better ones on the turn are the dogs who have the better turn of stifle and well angulated hindquarters and these will give them the edge in the flexibility stakes over a dog who just doesnt have the same strength in the hindquarters. The tail follows what happens in those two areas. Souff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mim Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 Dogs show other animals how they are feeling by using their body language. This is not limited to use of a tail. There is facial expression, ear set, body stance, hackles up/down, mouth and tongue movement etc. A dog can communicate just fine with or without a tail. So there goes the thought of "a dog can't express itself without a tail" which I know I hear A LOT from the public. Does "body stance" include dancing around on your hind legs, even though you don't have a tail, when you are just sooo pleased to see somebody? :p The best dancer here is 14 years old and yes, she was docked as a puppy. She could give lessons in communication .... and balance! Sounds like my bobtail girl! Her whole body wiggles like crazy and she dances around. It is a nice sight to see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souff Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 I have had blood splattered all up my walls too by my sons nose bleeds but I am not going to push for the removal at birth of all boys noses. Is that an Aussie Shepherd or a Border Collie in the photo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aussielover Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 Missing an arm is NOT like missing a tail....[How do you know?] Are you serious............. we use both arms for nearly all our daily activities as humans, what do dogs use their tails for? how is it even similar? Balance. communication My dogs can communicate equally as well as one another. My NBT girl isn't keen on young dogs getting in her face and she communicates that extremely well to them without her tail. My boys both love meeting other dogs and both of them, tail or not, communicate their good intentions quite clearly to strange dogs. Of course, I did not mean to imply that dogs cannot communicate without a tail. But you cannot deny they do use their tails as one aspect of their communication. Someone asked what a tail was used for...... They are not useless appendages, whilst they may not be essential for the function of the animal they do serve a purpose in dogs that actually have them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisovar Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 I have had the blood splattered up my walls from the tail injuries, and I won't be doing it again.Docking a newborn pup is not cruel. Docking a damaged adult tail is a nightmare. It really shits me though that the experiences of those that have lived with and have a depth of knowledge and understanding of the breeds and are experienced enough to know how to dock quickly, cleanly and with no distress to the whelps are totally ignored and drowned out by cries of mutilation and cruelty. I cannot understand those that have decided a dog is difficult to read if docked. Are they serious? Apparently because we hear it over and over. There is more to a dog than its tail people, you are ones that keep saying it. I have never lived with a Rottie but I could sure tell if one was happy or riled. It is not ok to dock, but it is ok to rip out the reproductive organs of young pups before they have even had a chance to mature. If a tail is an import and vital part of a dog how can reproductive organs not be. I have had blood splattered all up my walls too by my sons nose bleeds but I am not going to push for the removal at birth of all boys noses. Lock him outside it is what has happened to many dogs of previously docked breeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mim Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 (edited) There is a lot more to a dog than a tail. Souff Yep, but they come in damn handy for some things. Focus on what tails are doing And just to contrast is a docked corgi doing extremely well at flyball and in my opinion, her turn on the box is a lot better than a lot of the dogs in that video.ETA: the turns these dogs are doing may be worse or better than others, due to factors such as how they were trained, their size, their speed, or as Souff mentioned, their physical construction. Tail may have very little to do with it (or it could have lots to do with it, I don't know I haven't read any research on it). Edited April 18, 2011 by Mim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souff Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 Yep, but they come in damn handy for some things. Focus on what tails are doing And just to contrast is a docked corgi doing extremely well at flyball and in my opinion, her turn on the box is a lot better than a lot of the dogs in that video. Well that darned corgi will just have to run under handicap in future I am afraid - it has a clear advantage! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisovar Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 There is a lot more to a dog than a tail. Souff Yep, but they come in damn handy for some things. Focus on what tails are doing And just to contrast is a docked corgi doing extremely well at flyball and in my opinion, her turn on the box is a lot better than a lot of the dogs in that video.ETA: the turns these dogs are doing may be worse or better than others, due to factors such as how they were trained, their size, their speed, or as Souff mentioned, their physical construction. Tail may have very little to do with it (or it could have lots to do with it, I don't know I haven't read any research on it). What a little ripper that corgi is!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souff Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 (edited) Of course, I did not mean to imply that dogs cannot communicate without a tail.But you cannot deny they do use their tails as one aspect of their communication. Someone asked what a tail was used for...... They are not useless appendages, whilst they may not be essential for the function of the animal they do serve a purpose in dogs that actually have them. Aussielover, it all gets back to the many differences in dogs, and the many differences in what the different breeds can, and cannot, do. What is fine for your breed with a tail is not necessarily the case in another breeds. What people are saying here is that the dogs were not handicapped in their communication simply because they were docked. That claim is an outright lie and can be disproven by thousands of happy docked dogs who were, and still are, able to communicate beautifully. It is a pity that people can only think of docking through their own breed and not take into account the vast differences that we have in the dog world overall. We don't treat all humans the same. We look to their differences and treat according to their needs. Souff Edited April 18, 2011 by Souff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts