Docking

[Boxerheart]

Is docking banned in Australia recently?

I don't own docked breed at the moment but i bought giant schnauzer puppy in 1997 just after tail docking was banned in 1996 in Finland. It took just a while to get use to the look, but i preferred my dog as a whole package.

It was banned in NSW in 2003, Im unsure on the other states

I dont like docking, I did work placement at a vet and had to hold a litter of pups when they were done...nope, not for me

My JRT is also docked (2001 pup, and she was docked before I picked her out or she would have had a one) I swear she gets a phantom tail sometimes, I hate seeing her try and bite the tail that doesnt exist

It is banned Australia wide now.

[Crisovar]

The main reason the pups carry on is they are removed from the warm whelping box, away from their litter mates and mum, held by a stranger in an awkward position and they get cold and distressed.

In the box at home with the breeder, straight back on the boob, no worries no stress no crying.

I would NEVER take a litter to the Vet to be docked or dew clawed EVER.

[GoldenGirl85]

The main reason the pups carry on is they are removed from the warm whelping box, away from their litter mates and mum, held by a stranger in an awkward position and they get cold and distressed.

In the box at home with the breeder, straight back on the boob, no worries no stress no crying.

I would NEVER take a litter to the Vet to be docked or dew clawed EVER.

Hmmm, actually that is exactly what I tell parents when their babies have to have blood tests, that the main reason they cry isnt because of the needle in their arm, but because they are being restrained....still though, that experience at the vet has scarred me

[moosmum]

Not once in my time with docked breeds (since 1970) did I ever have one person question docking or request a tail be left on their pup. I do not actually recall any breeder that I know being requested to leave a tail either.

I am very happy with tails on my dogs,tho' I would have prefered it be left to personal choice.I think the arguement that no-one asked for tails be left alone before legislation is irrelevent since

a)it has taken time for people to get used to in some breeds.

b)How can you pick a pup at 3 days old to say"hold the docking on that one".

Many breeders would have refused to sell with out docking.

I once had a woman tell me it would be cruel to leave tails on her boxers since she saw one once with a tail and it could not sit properly

Though I don't like that we have legislation to force the issue,it has made it easier for those who prefer tails...they would have had a hard time before legislation to make that call and still be taken seriously should they want to show or breed with tails.

Nothing against the practice at all if its done correctly,but I prefer my own dogs with tails now I am used to it and if their increased agility is due to the tail,all the more reason to be happy.

[Crisovar]

Not once in my time with docked breeds (since 1970) did I ever have one person question docking or request a tail be left on their pup. I do not actually recall any breeder that I know being requested to leave a tail either.

I am very happy with tails on my dogs,tho' I would have prefered it be left to personal choice.I think the arguement that no-one asked for tails be left alone before legislation is irrelevent since

a)it has taken time for people to get used to in some breeds.

b)How can you pick a pup at 3 days old to say"hold the docking on that one".

Many breeders would have refused to sell with out docking.

I once had a woman tell me it would be cruel to leave tails on her boxers since she saw one once with a tail and it could not sit properly

Though I don't like that we have legislation to force the issue,it has made it easier for those who prefer tails...they would have had a hard time before legislation to make that call and still be taken seriously should they want to show or breed with tails.

Nothing against the practice at all if its done correctly,but I prefer my own dogs with tails now I am used to it and if their increased agility is due to the tail,all the more reason to be happy.

I don't think it is irrelevent, If people felt strongly about the issue they would have raised it, not blindly accepted that all pups came docked. It appears to me that they gave it little or no thought.

[poodlemum]

Don't be offended dobesrock they are still the best breed ever.. I just think that after owning four dobes without tails I'm used to it.. I saw a baby puppy at a show today she bet the docked puppy boy hands down.. I think its hard to adjust to something new. Sending bitches that have been mated to NZ I understand its stressful but doesn't it depend on when? If you have connections in NZ that will look after the bitch for the whole gestation period is that more humane?

From my experience, I think sending a bitch away to have a litter is cruel & places them under extra stress but then my bitches have always been pets as well and want their "Mum" with them during whelping.

[kirada1]

How do you like your breed with a tail? Are you still breeding? Do you prefer it with a tail? What do you say to people that think its cruel?

I love the look of a docked tail but then again I was brought up looking at docked tails on certain breeds . The eye slowly gets use to long tails, my eye will evenutually too. The new generation dog owners will think that a docked tail looks kinda silly, it is what we have been grown up with.

It is just a shame that our rights to dock have been taken away. JMO

If the docking ban gets revoked, I will dock my Poodle tails once again

[Souff]

Elina, I have some questions for you:

1. Have you ever lived in the Australian countryside with dogs that like to go into holes in the ground?

2. Do you own or breed a docked breed? (one of the conditions for commenting in this thread)

3. Have you ever owned a Welsh Corgi (Pembroke)

4. Have you ever owned a dog that has broken its tail as an adult, and you had to get the breaks to heal, without success, and then after months of unsuccessful treatment, you had to get the tail amputated on the adult dog? If so, can you tell me what the temperament of the dog was like during the months of treatment, and what the dog's temperament was like after the amputation?

1. No.

2. I have had giant schnauzer.

3. No, but how on earth is this relevant?!

4. No, but i have owned dogs who have broke their legs while stepping to something sharp. That has been painful for a dog and needed many weeks care. Maybe we should cut one leg as well while docking tails. This would diminish the risk that one leg will get hurt. Leg is not VITAL (sorry about my previous mistake, it's this language barrier) part for dog either. Just very crucial for balance just like tail.

The lifestyle of dogs in Finland and other European countries is markedly different to dogs in Australia, and is due to the differences in climate and lifestyle.

Australian dogs spend a far greater amount of time OUTDOORS and many of them are very busy dogs that have no regard to the damage that they can do to tails.

Dogs in Europe spend a far greater time safely indoors in homes, and/or safely in barns, than their Australian counterparts.

Tail damage is cruel.

Amputation of a broken tail is cruel.

Tail damage is preventable.

We can prevent cruelty and if we know our dogs are at risk, then there is a case that says we have an obligation to prevent cruelty.

Souff

It is quite impossible to discuss about topic with someone, who is so fanatic of something. I haven't said that I think docking tails is cruel. I have just said that attitudes in my country has changed after 15 years. If Australian countryside is so dangerous for dogs tails, why kelpies and dingos have tails? And I have understood that most people live in cities nowadays?

We have lots of hunting dogs in Finland. I have heard of a few GSP's has had tail damages while running in a thick forrest during hunting. I could approve docking for that breed. Do you hunt with dogs?

Thank you for your reply Elina.

Just for the record I am not a fanatic.

I am a concerned person who understands many of the facets of the docking debate.

I have owned both docked and undocked dogs, and I have had a lot to do with dogs of different breeds who have suffered damaged tails.

Some owners dogs were so badly affected by months of trauma that the dogs were later euthanased.

A once happy dog can lose all joy of life after tail injury. Some become totally obsessed with the remaining tail after amputation. It is very sad to see.

Some are euthanased as they never recover from the trauma.

My concern is that the right thing is done for dog breeds that are AT RISK of tail damage.

Tail damage can be prevented by taking pro-active steps, in much the same way that disease can be prevented by taking proactive steps.

I am not concerned for all breeds, just those who are at risk.

No, I do not hunt with dogs but I am very close to people who hunt. Records of tail damage to GSPs were being kept, such was the concern.

The dogs used in the harsher Australian conditions mostly have very strong tails and do not suffer tail damage like Pointers.

In answer to your question about Kelpies and Dingos, they are NOT at risk of tail damage because of the construction of their tail; like the hunting dogs in Australia, they have a thick strong tail and the space between the vertebrae is small. The tail is set high and carried high.

The construction of a tail, and the tail set and carriage, are some of the things that are important to know about tails.

Some TYPES of tails are at risk of tail damage.

Some TYPES of tails are not at risk of tail damage.

In answer to your statement about most people living in cities nowadays in Australia, please remember it is dogs we are talking about - not people.

Dogs in the cities live a protected life, but in Australia, there are many, many dogs who do not live in cities.

Australia is a huge country - it is about the same size as 48 mainland states of the USA. It is around 50 per cent larger than all of Europe (excluding Russia).

We have a very big country and we have a LOT of dogs living in country areas.

Life in Australia for dogs is very different to life in Finland for dogs.

Souff

[Blakbelgian]

On our breed a nice high set tail that curls over does look good.

But from what I have seen so far not many lines can produce these.

Even our country of origin BELGIUM can't decide on what type of tail we should have.

Curly over the back :thumbsup: ;) or low set & hung in repose :D like a GSD.

On some girls I can see a tail but on some boys I cant imagine them with one.

Cant get used to a Dobe with a l o n g curly tail, or the OES or the Schnauzer.

BB

[Havasneeze]

On our breed a nice high set tail that curls over does look good.

But from what I have seen so far not many lines can produce these.

Even our country of origin BELGIUM can't decide on what type of tail we should have.

Curly over the back :thumbsup: ;) or low set & hung in repose :D like a GSD.

On some girls I can see a tail but on some boys I cant imagine them with one.

Cant get used to a Dobe with a l o n g curly tail, or the OES or the Schnauzer.

BB

I watched the Giant Schnauzer's at the Royal today. I was amazed at the different types of tails on show. There was one that sort of went straight up in the air with a slight bend in it, there were some that curled like a coil and then there were some that just hung straight down. I am wondering which type of tail is the correct one, any ideas?

[kyliegirl]

I have a tailed dobermann, Initially I was unsure about the tail as I had always seen dobes docked, so it was unusual to say the least. My biggest concern was the stories I had heard of dobermanns tails being very long, frail and whippy making them prone to damage. Fortunately so far I have not had any of these issues with Echo, his tail is a little thin at the end, but I would definitely not say its whippy, infact his tail is carried in a similar position to a Maltese's tail where it stands upright and curls towards the back. When he wags the tail seems to maintain the curl.

I must admit I do actually like how the tail is carried and I have gotten quite used to how it looks. I doubt we would have any situations where his tail would be damaged with the way he carries it.

as for being cruel, not cruel.. I wish to not comment on this, it causes too much debate.

Edited April 17, 2011 by kyliegirl

[bedazzledx2]

Yep! Waggle Bums rock

We have one tailed Min Pin here and one docked - the docked girl (Mischa) has had hers done way too short, if you don't know her personally you can't read her moods at all! Cleo looks good with a tail, much more expressive and it adds to the prancy Min Pin gate. Having said that, Cleo is shorter and more solid than Mischa, who is taller and more willowy. I find it hard to imagine what she would be like with a tail.

I do prefer dogs with their natural tails.

We don't have that issue with Aussies, they wiggle their whole butts and in some cases the whole body in several different directions at once. No doubt when a NBT/docked Aussie is happy!

[Gayle.]

Here's a list of countries where tail docking has been banned. Some large and populous European countries there, and I'm surprised to see South Africa on the list as well. They'd have a similar demographic to Australia, I would think......a mix of indoor and outdoor, and working and non-working dogs.

Australia

Austria

Belgium

Cyprus

Czech Republic

Denmark

Estonia

Finland

France

Germany

Greece

Hungary

Iceland

Israel

Latvia

Luxembourg

Netherlands

Norway

Slovakia

South Africa

Sweden

Switzerland

United Kingdom

Virgin Islands

[DobieMum]

I have a tailed dobermann, Initially I was unsure about the tail as I had always seen dobes docked, so it was unusual to say the least. My biggest concern was the stories I had heard of dobermanns tails being very long, frail and whippy making them prone to damage. Fortunately so far I have not had any of these issues with Echo, his tail is a little thin at the end, but I would definitely not say its whippy, infact his tail is carried in a similar position to a Maltese's tail where it stands upright and curls towards the back. When he wags the tail seems to maintain the curl.

I must admit I do actually like how the tail is carried and I have gotten quite used to how it looks. I doubt we would have any situations where his tail would be damaged with the way he carries it.

as for being cruel, not cruel.. I wish to not comment on this, it causes too much debate.

I have dobies as well. My block that I live on is sloped, but my patio is flat. The other day I walked outside to hear my dogs play barking and all I could see was this black tail going madly and a brown tail (dogue), it's times like this I don't miss docking.

[nightgrace6]

I'm kinda surprised about austria and germany seeing as they invented quite a few of the docked breeds themselves..

[poodlemum]

How do you like your breed with a tail? Are you still breeding? Do you prefer it with a tail? What do you say to people that think its cruel?

I love the look of a docked tail but then again I was brought up looking at docked tails on certain breeds . The eye slowly gets use to long tails, my eye will evenutually too. The new generation dog owners will think that a docked tail looks kinda silly, it is what we have been grown up with.

It is just a shame that our rights to dock have been taken away. JMO

If the docking ban gets revoked, I will dock my Poodle tails once again

x2

[sparkycat]

I'm kinda surprised about austria and germany seeing as they invented quite a few of the docked breeds themselves..

It just goes to show that they are flexable and open-minded and can adapt to change - pity some Australians can't

[sparkycat]

In answer to your statement about most people living in cities nowadays in Australia, please remember it is dogs we are talking about - not people.

Dogs in the cities live a protected life, but in Australia, there are many, many dogs who do not live in cities.

Australia is a huge country - it is about the same size as 48 mainland states of the USA. It is around 50 per cent larger than all of Europe (excluding Russia).

We have a very big country and we have a LOT of dogs living in country areas.

Life in Australia for dogs is very different to life in Finland for dogs.

Souff

And the majority of Australians live in urban areas 70-80% and our working dogs are mainly sheep and cattle herders that are not a docked breed.

I haven't yet heard of a pack of working corgis, poodles, rotties etc but you never know they may well be out there.

[Monah]

I don't agree that aussie dogs have a vastly different life to Euro dogs. I have a lot of friends with gundogs (and hounds etc) who hunt, breed, live in rural areas in Euro and their dogs are a lot 'busier' and there are a lot more of them out there hunting, herding etc than here.

I have a viz and a spin who are not docked. I have had docked dogs in the past, giant schnauzers, lakeland terriers,.. I dont mind the look of either docked or undocked.

Not docking a viz is a real problem. There is a register for tail damage and there are some awful 'stories' of damage, recovery of many many months, etc. The tail does not heal easily and is part of the spine. Vizslas have the WAGGIEST bums ever, and very thin tails past the traditional docking length. I worry all the time about my vizs tail as I've seen how painful and ongoing an injury can be.

The spin has a very very thick tail so not so much of an issue, and she does not wag as hard as the viz.

I dont show these days so I'm wondering what the effect is at shows when some are docked (older dogs or imports) and others not docked and if this makes any difference to judging?

[ari.g]

My family have always had boxers. Me personally, I love the docked tail on the boxers. I think they look odd with tails. I am looking at importing my next boxer from New Zealand and so is my mother.

When it is no longer possible to have a docked tail on a boxer, I will be looking at changing to a different breed.