Docking

[halfthewords]

We have one tailed Min Pin here and one docked - the docked girl (Mischa) has had hers done way too short, if you don't know her personally you can't read her moods at all! Cleo looks good with a tail, much more expressive and it adds to the prancy Min Pin gate. Having said that, Cleo is shorter and more solid than Mischa, who is taller and more willowy. I find it hard to imagine what she would be like with a tail.

I do prefer dogs with their natural tails.

We don't have that issue with Aussies, they wiggle their whole butts and in some cases the whole body in several different directions at once. No doubt when a NBT/docked Aussie is happy! :D

The most I get is a toothy grin before she licks me but otherwise that's about it when she's in a good mood!

[Sayly]

We have one tailed Min Pin here and one docked - the docked girl (Mischa) has had hers done way too short, if you don't know her personally you can't read her moods at all! Cleo looks good with a tail, much more expressive and it adds to the prancy Min Pin gate. Having said that, Cleo is shorter and more solid than Mischa, who is taller and more willowy. I find it hard to imagine what she would be like with a tail.

I do prefer dogs with their natural tails.

We don't have that issue with Aussies, they wiggle their whole butts and in some cases the whole body in several different directions at once. No doubt when a NBT/docked Aussie is happy! :D

Haha, that is so true! Especially Holly! She has a massive wiggle.

She's awesome but you should see Maizie at home, she bends in the middle and then each end wiggles seperately to the other end. She doesn't do it much at shows.

We have one tailed Min Pin here and one docked - the docked girl (Mischa) has had hers done way too short, if you don't know her personally you can't read her moods at all! Cleo looks good with a tail, much more expressive and it adds to the prancy Min Pin gate. Having said that, Cleo is shorter and more solid than Mischa, who is taller and more willowy. I find it hard to imagine what she would be like with a tail.

I do prefer dogs with their natural tails. ;)

We don't have that issue with Aussies, they wiggle their whole butts and in some cases the whole body in several different directions at once. No doubt when a NBT/docked Aussie is happy!

The most I get is a toothy grin before she licks me but otherwise that's about it when she's in a good mood!

Awww! I love grinners. Holly is a grinner but she's my only Aussie so far who grins.

[SparkyTansy]

How do you like your breed with a tail? Are you still breeding? Do you prefer it with a tail? What do you say to people that think its cruel?

I am on the fence with this one. I like the traditionally docked breeds and I am more about the fact that i wish it was a choice. I quite like Weimaraners with tails, and I find it more difficult getting used to a docked tail on them now.

Old English, I am on the fence. A nice, fairly low set tail carried nicely (not over the back, for example) looks nice, and it is easily disguised when stacking in the showring, but it does throw out the proportions and for that reason I find it much easier to show under a judge who has judged them with tails.

I don't breed OES, but I do know of several people who have left the breed since the docking ban. I think that few of them gave it a chance, and their arguments that it is more hygienic are really out the window, as several still in the breed remark that it is easier to keep a tailed OES clean. To me, the breed is still the same breed, just with a tail, and by stopping the breeding and reducing the genepool, they are only driving their breed towards extinction.

As for people who say they think it is cruel, well I tend not to get into arguments with them. I say I have my own opinions on it. I saw it done when i was 8 years old and the pups barely squeaked. I think one of them slept through it. If (and this will never happen) it was ever brought back, I probably wouldn't bother to dock my breed, but I wouldn't disagree with those that did.

[silentchild]

My Rottie has a tail and I couldn't imagine her without it.. I just love it - nothing better than a full fluffy Rottie tail wagging crazily with joy. I love the look of Rotties and Dobes with tails and uncropped ears.

[RiverStar-Aura]

I've been owner to a traditionally docked Aussie Terrier and will soon be getting my first full tailed Aussie Terrier (I'm having trouble calling them just Aussies because that seems to be the name for the Aussie Sheps too! ).

I loved Poochie's docked tail and she was so adorable with her lil stumpy (as I called it) going a million miles an hour when she wagged it, however, after having Zeus (my first dog with a full tail) and after seeing my pups' mums with full tails I must say they're very endearing. I love how they stand with their chests puffed out and their little tails stuck up in the air -- so proud!

I'm pleased docking was banned if only to see the Aussie Tees with tails.

But I agree with some others, seeing Dobes with full tails is weird but I think that's because I'm used to them being docked. Rotties with full bushy tails ... :D

[Mim]

I have pembroke corgis. I prefer a dock over the other options (natural bob or full tail, although you could get half length tails etc).

I wish everyday that my long coated boy was born with a bob or could have been docked. I hate his tail and I think he does too. It is always getting stepped and pulled on accidentally, it gets stuck under things and trapped in doors and he even trips over it sometimes.

I currently have 1 docked and 2 natural bobs and always get dirty looks or comments about how cruel I am. I just ignore it, I am over explaining to people that it is not cruel

[boxagirl]

I own a docked dog (Boxer), have never had anyone comment on it being cruel, just had alot of people lately commenting that it's nice to see one without a tail, as they see lots with tails now!

I prefer them docked, and thing the tail can ruin the outline of some dogs (depending on how they carry their tail.. some boxers with tails seem to roach there back (maybe due to owners trying to hold tail).. some are fine)

Like emery, I love my breed too much to be detered by tails- although I will miss seeing the boxers wiggling stumps!

[cannibalgoldfish]

I was wondering, or I had a theory about docked breeds. Well, about dobes and rotties, not other breeds. My theory is from seeing undocked examples about and talking to people who see them, so not scientific at all....

Dobes and rotties are two breeds traditionially with docked tails and also breeds that suffered from the "(sometimes) american macho killer pricked eared killer guard dog syndrome." As in, it is shown as big and sleek and scary and a killer. Yet since docking was bought in to Australia I have met people who are not scared by such dogs. It is like their evil vindictive killer viciousness (you get what I mean) is tied up in their tail. Any smart looking black and tan guard breed must be a killer... Somehow the tail seems to soften the look. I know it's stupid and only my experiance but I keep meeting people who hate and fear a cropped tailed doberman or rottweiler yet soften towards those with a tail. Does having a tail make them so less fearsome? and why dont german shepherds get the same? Is that because they have nothing about their looks to "soften" their rep? I think it might be about changing the rep of such breeds as they are shown on film? Would like to hear from anyone who has seen this. I might just be mad...!

[emery]

I own a docked dog (Boxer), have never had anyone comment on it being cruel, just had alot of people lately commenting that it's nice to see one without a tail, as they see lots with tails now!

I prefer them docked, and thing the tail can ruin the outline of some dogs (depending on how they carry their tail.. some boxers with tails seem to roach there back (maybe due to owners trying to hold tail).. some are fine)

Like emery, I love my breed too much to be detered by tails- although I will miss seeing the boxers wiggling stumps!

this is so what i will miss i love my zeusy's bum wiggles

[Souff]

I have pembroke corgis. I prefer a dock over the other options (natural bob or full tail, although you could get half length tails etc).

I wish everyday that my long coated boy was born with a bob or could have been docked. I hate his tail and I think he does too. It is always getting stepped and pulled on accidentally, it gets stuck under things and trapped in doors and he even trips over it sometimes.

I currently have 1 docked and 2 natural bobs and always get dirty looks or comments about how cruel I am. I just ignore it, I am over explaining to people that it is not cruel

I hear you Mim, I hear you. I really feel bad for the Pembrokes with full tail but at least you have the natural bobtail in your breed.

I think I will always remain angry at the way the public was deceived with the lies on their television screens and in the media generally.

Banding the tails of newborns is not cruel and there was excellent video footage available to show the banding procedure being done while pups were suckling and sleepy but the public was not to be shown that. We got it to the politicians but Labor had a majority in most parliaments so we were whistling in the wind, pretty much.

However, the Minister for Agriculture in NSW (Mr Ian MacDonald) told the truth when he stated in Parliament when the law was being passed in the NSW Upper House (so you can read it in Hansard) : he stated it was a law based on "contemporary community expectations".

This was NOT a law that was needed because of cruelty. It was a law based on another powerful man's vendetta and it was heavily publicised with lies, and he got away with it because all of the publicity was targetted right at people's emotions. Using words and phrases like "mutilation" and "fashion statement".

Yet, "contemporary community expectations" is another description of "fashion"!!!

The fact that very few other countries have followed Australia's lead states an awful lot. Only a very small number of countries overall have legislated against docking. I have been in some of the countries where docking was banned and it is a very unpopular law amongst the people who work with dogs. Watch this space. Changes of governments could well bring changes in the future.

Under the old laws, we had choice.

With the current laws, we lost choice.

So much for living in a democratic country.

I will never support anything that is cruel to animals - but docking or banding, when done at the proper time and done by qualified people, is not cruel and in my view tail docking or banding should be restricted and it should be de-criminalised.

Souff loves Pembrokes and hates to see that heavy tail behind dragged behind them on the ground because of this law. Tail damage is cruelty and it is preventable.

Souff

Edited April 15, 2011 by Souff

[DobieMum]

I was wondering, or I had a theory about docked breeds. Well, about dobes and rotties, not other breeds. My theory is from seeing undocked examples about and talking to people who see them, so not scientific at all....

Dobes and rotties are two breeds traditionially with docked tails and also breeds that suffered from the "(sometimes) american macho killer pricked eared killer guard dog syndrome." As in, it is shown as big and sleek and scary and a killer. Yet since docking was bought in to Australia I have met people who are not scared by such dogs. It is like their evil vindictive killer viciousness (you get what I mean) is tied up in their tail. Any smart looking black and tan guard breed must be a killer... Somehow the tail seems to soften the look. I know it's stupid and only my experiance but I keep meeting people who hate and fear a cropped tailed doberman or rottweiler yet soften towards those with a tail. Does having a tail make them so less fearsome? and why dont german shepherds get the same? Is that because they have nothing about their looks to "soften" their rep? I think it might be about changing the rep of such breeds as they are shown on film? Would like to hear from anyone who has seen this. I might just be mad...!

I own a dobie with a tail and I agree with this comment whole heartedly. I've had so many of the general public, comment on how good my girl is and how good she looks yet last year when I took my old girl who was a Red with a docked tail out (PTS last year) I had people cross the street, yet I would have trusted my old girl over my girl now. People say my now dobie looks so friendly. I think it's the tail that does it.

What do I think of it, I still don't know, but I'm breeding the end of the year and the pups will have tails, so I guess I'm just going to have to get used to it. Hehehe

[Souff]

I was wondering, or I had a theory about docked breeds. Well, about dobes and rotties, not other breeds. My theory is from seeing undocked examples about and talking to people who see them, so not scientific at all....

Dobes and rotties are two breeds traditionially with docked tails and also breeds that suffered from the "(sometimes) american macho killer pricked eared killer guard dog syndrome." As in, it is shown as big and sleek and scary and a killer. Yet since docking was bought in to Australia I have met people who are not scared by such dogs. It is like their evil vindictive killer viciousness (you get what I mean) is tied up in their tail. Any smart looking black and tan guard breed must be a killer... Somehow the tail seems to soften the look. I know it's stupid and only my experiance but I keep meeting people who hate and fear a cropped tailed doberman or rottweiler yet soften towards those with a tail. Does having a tail make them so less fearsome? and why dont german shepherds get the same? Is that because they have nothing about their looks to "soften" their rep? I think it might be about changing the rep of such breeds as they are shown on film? Would like to hear from anyone who has seen this. I might just be mad...!

I own a dobie with a tail and I agree with this comment whole heartedly. I've had so many of the general public, comment on how good my girl is and how good she looks yet last year when I took my old girl who was a Red with a docked tail out (PTS last year) I had people cross the street, yet I would have trusted my old girl over my girl now. People say my now dobie looks so friendly. I think it's the tail that does it.

Yes, I think there is something in the perception that the dog looks friendlier.

Personally I have nothing but huge respect for a dog whose appearance tells me that it is "on duty" and I never challenge that dog and open gates uninvited etc.

I wonder if burglars and the like are lulled into a false sense of security by a long waggy tail.

[*Heidi*]

I have a Welsh Springer Spaniel, i love her tail :D her parents and grandparents etc are all docked, she was the first litter

from her breeder to keep the tail, i am happy about it, not that at the time it bothered me one way or the other.

Now i like it though, just dont tell her that as sometimes when i come home and she is wagging it like a mad Springer she is hitting me and the wall

with it. I sometimes tell her to calm down or i will chop it off myself, she has banged it open before hitting the wall with it

[klink]

Having been involved in a docked breed for over 25years, and tried in vain to stop the banning of docking on the grounds of cruelty( which was proven scientifically to not be cruel or to cause any pain to the pup ) I find it quite amusing that people with a traditionally docked breed now claim to really like the tails on these dogs. If that was your feeling why didnt' you request or order from the breeder an undocked puppy in the first place?

I continually hear people claiming and adjusting their views on this subject and Ithink it would be very interesting to see how many would soon dock if the laws were altered to choice.(not existing dogs)

But I guess it give people another excuse for not winning in the show ring. This anti docking movement started in Europe and all of us sat on our backsides and mostly didnt' get involved,"because it didnt' affect our breed " it is really about time that we all started worrying about whats going on NOT just with our own breed.

Check out the Kiwis' they didnt' just rollover. they took notice of the scientfic evidence instead on just listening to all the crap put out by the lobby groups and bleeding hearts.

[Souff]

Having been involved in a docked breed for over 25years, and tried in vain to stop the banning of docking on the grounds of cruelty( which was proven scientifically to not be cruel or to cause any pain to the pup ) I find it quite amusing that people with a traditionally docked breed now claim to really like the tails on these dogs. If that was your feeling why didnt' you request or order from the breeder an undocked puppy in the first place?

I continually hear people claiming and adjusting their views on this subject and Ithink it would be very interesting to see how many would soon dock if the laws were altered to choice.(not existing dogs)

But I guess it give people another excuse for not winning in the show ring. This anti docking movement started in Europe and all of us sat on our backsides and mostly didnt' get involved,"because it didnt' affect our breed " it is really about time that we all started worrying about whats going on NOT just with our own breed.

Check out the Kiwis' they didnt' just rollover. they took notice of the scientfic evidence instead on just listening to all the crap put out by the lobby groups and bleeding hearts.

Correct. Similar proposed laws were thrown out in NZ and so the NZ breeders have the choice to dock, or to sell puppies undocked.

And in other governments in other parts of the world, the same thing has happened. Proposed laws have been put forward about banning docking ..... and rejected.

People in other countries would not agree to having choice taken away from them.

It is all about choice, and owners COULD choose to have a puppy with a long tail, prior to the ban.

All they had to do was to order a puppy with a tail. Not hard.

If one breeder refused their request, then another breeder could be approached.

Australian breeders and owners should have a legal choice returned to them, but as a restricted procedure with only qualified people being able to dock/band.

Souff

[dunnwarren]

I have owned and bred a docked breed for over 30 years and in all that time only one person asked for her puppy not to be docked. I must admit I don't like the tails, there is such a variation in the carriage of them, some up and over the back, some stick out from the body horizontally. I think the silky looks so much nicer and more alert docked. It's only a personal view I know but then we have different opinions of whether the tail should be left with full hair that ends up looking like a papillons' tail or trimmed like I do. It says in the standard that tails should be free from feathering yet there are people out there still leaving the hair long. There are still judges out there that don't like the long tail, it's a personal thing I know but I still have problems seeing a dobe or rotty with a long tail.

[nightgrace6]

I'm glad my breeder and lots of others in the breed are sending litters to NZ I think it will preserve interest in my breed. I have my first show tomorrow and I think all the other baby puppies have tails it will be interesting to see if this hinders their performance in the ring or whether my docked puppy will be inhibited.

[Souff]

I'm glad my breeder and lots of others in the breed are sending litters to NZ I think it will preserve interest in my breed. I have my first show tomorrow and I think all the other baby puppies have tails it will be interesting to see if this hinders their performance in the ring or whether my docked puppy will be inhibited.

Good luck tomorrow!

[aus_k9gsd]

I have min pins and a German pinscher, I don't mind them with tails but they all have lovely straight tails as I don't like the look of them when they curl over there backs

Only issue I have is people calling the min pins chihuahuas

[Bisart Dobes]

I was wondering, or I had a theory :D about docked breeds. Well, about dobes and rotties, not other breeds. My theory is from seeing undocked examples about and talking to people who see them, so not scientific at all....

Dobes and rotties are two breeds traditionially with docked tails and also breeds that suffered from the "(sometimes) american macho killer pricked eared killer guard dog syndrome." As in, it is shown as big and sleek and scary and a killer. Yet since docking was bought in to Australia I have met people who are not scared by such dogs. It is like their evil vindictive killer viciousness (you get what I mean) is tied up in their tail. Any smart looking black and tan guard breed must be a killer... Somehow the tail seems to soften the look. I know it's stupid and only my experiance but I keep meeting people who hate and fear a cropped tailed doberman or rottweiler yet soften towards those with a tail. Does having a tail make them so less fearsome? and why dont german shepherds get the same? Is that because they have nothing about their looks to "soften" their rep? I think it might be about changing the rep of such breeds as they are shown on film? Would like to hear from anyone who has seen this. I might just be mad...!

I own a dobie with a tail and I agree with this comment whole heartedly. I've had so many of the general public, comment on how good my girl is and how good she looks yet last year when I took my old girl who was a Red with a docked tail out (PTS last year) I had people cross the street, yet I would have trusted my old girl over my girl now. People say my now dobie looks so friendly. I think it's the tail that does it.

Yes, I think there is something in the perception that the dog looks friendlier.

Personally I have nothing but huge respect for a dog whose appearance tells me that it is "on duty" and I never challenge that dog and open gates uninvited etc.

I wonder if burglars and the like are lulled into a false sense of security by a long waggy tail.

Silly silly person who thinks a dobermann won't step up and guard what it believes to be theirs - tail or no tail. They are a guard dog and properly bred will guard and protect with a stable even temperament but will put their lives on the line with no question at all.

People fawn over our brown dobes and say what a beautiful dog / let their kids cuddle them etc etc until they ask what breed they are . Don't think the tail makes any difference. If anything it would actually give them extra power from the rear if they did attack - false sense of security indeed.