OSoSwift Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 Agreed and one day when I can get my BC I will come talk to you guys - Oh and I don't really care what colour, but prefer black and white Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenGirl85 Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 Agreed and one day when I can get my BC I will come talk to you guys - Oh and I don't really care what colour, but prefer black and white Mhm, when the time comes for me Ill definitely be moseying over to the BC thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayreovi Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 Agreed and one day when I can get my BC I will come talk to you guys - Oh and I don't really care what colour, but prefer black and white Same here, but I unfortunately have a tendacy towards the darker reds (like my Tollers) and sables *runs and hides* ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystiqview Posted April 17, 2011 Author Share Posted April 17, 2011 Agreed and one day when I can get my BC I will come talk to you guys - Oh and I don't really care what colour, but prefer black and white Same here, but I unfortunately have a tendacy towards the darker reds (like my Tollers) and sables *runs and hides* ;) Yeah. have to say I like the dark reds too like my big boy. The pale ones just don't have that same look. Hopefully I won't be putting any more sables out there... Hopefully Myf is the one and only. At least it was an accidental surprise rather than a planned event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenGirl85 Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 Agreed and one day when I can get my BC I will come talk to you guys - Oh and I don't really care what colour, but prefer black and white Same here, but I unfortunately have a tendacy towards the darker reds (like my Tollers) and sables *runs and hides* ;) Yeah. have to say I like the dark reds too like my big boy. The pale ones just don't have that same look. Hopefully I won't be putting any more sables out there... Hopefully Myf is the one and only. At least it was an accidental surprise rather than a planned event. Whats wrong with sable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 Agreed and one day when I can get my BC I will come talk to you guys - Oh and I don't really care what colour, but prefer black and white Same here, but I unfortunately have a tendacy towards the darker reds (like my Tollers) and sables *runs and hides* Yeah. have to say I like the dark reds too like my big boy. The pale ones just don't have that same look. Hopefully I won't be putting any more sables out there... Hopefully Myf is the one and only. At least it was an accidental surprise rather than a planned event. Whats wrong with sable? When red was added to our standard about 20 years ago the reds had formerly been called sables, so the term red was used to distinguish it from sable but they didn't bother to put sable in the standard as well. Now that the ANKC won't allow any colour not in the standard to be main registered in any breed, you cannot main register a dog as sable. Absolutely idiotic, but that is the current rule introduced by the ANKC without any consultation to anyone. Borders used to be registered as their true colour on main but only the ones listed in the standard were shown. Of course colour makes no difference to a working or performance dog so the colour didn't matter to breeding stock for those purposes or if the dog was good enough it was easy enough to breed a standard colour from a non-standard colour anyway. Now if you want to main register a puppy you are told to choose the closest colour so if the dog is required for breeding it gets registered as an incorrect colour. Every other country in the world allows sable as a colour except here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 Agreed and one day when I can get my BC I will come talk to you guys - Oh and I don't really care what colour, but prefer black and white Same here, but I unfortunately have a tendacy towards the darker reds (like my Tollers) and sables *runs and hides* Nothing wrong with having a preference for a dark red or a sable if you are prepared to wait as long as it takes to get a good one from the right breeder and don't pay an inflated price for it. Several of us with Borders would one day love to have and outstanding show tri but they are very hard to come by. I have bred tri but not one quite good enough to keep in my yard yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenGirl85 Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 Agreed and one day when I can get my BC I will come talk to you guys - Oh and I don't really care what colour, but prefer black and white Same here, but I unfortunately have a tendacy towards the darker reds (like my Tollers) and sables *runs and hides* Yeah. have to say I like the dark reds too like my big boy. The pale ones just don't have that same look. Hopefully I won't be putting any more sables out there... Hopefully Myf is the one and only. At least it was an accidental surprise rather than a planned event. Whats wrong with sable? When red was added to our standard about 20 years ago the reds had formerly been called sables, so the term red was used to distinguish it from sable but they didn't bother to put sable in the standard as well. Now that the ANKC won't allow any colour not in the standard to be main registered in any breed, you cannot main register a dog as sable. Absolutely idiotic, but that is the current rule introduced by the ANKC without any consultation to anyone. Borders used to be registered as their true colour on main but only the ones listed in the standard were shown. Of course colour makes no difference to a working or performance dog so the colour didn't matter to breeding stock for those purposes or if the dog was good enough it was easy enough to breed a standard colour from a non-standard colour anyway. Now if you want to main register a puppy you are told to choose the closest colour so if the dog is required for breeding it gets registered as an incorrect colour. Every other country in the world allows sable as a colour except here. So is sable and red genetically the same? I just had a look at your website and saw a pic of Myf, she looks a bit like a sunburned b&w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayreovi Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 Agreed and one day when I can get my BC I will come talk to you guys - Oh and I don't really care what colour, but prefer black and white Same here, but I unfortunately have a tendacy towards the darker reds (like my Tollers) and sables *runs and hides* Nothing wrong with having a preference for a dark red or a sable if you are prepared to wait as long as it takes to get a good one from the right breeder and don't pay an inflated price for it. Several of us with Borders would one day love to have and outstanding show tri but they are very hard to come by. I have bred tri but not one quite good enough to keep in my yard yet. I would be waiting a long time as ideally I would like a sable if/when I get a BC and I prefer show type BC's as well......I think the darker red BC's will just blend in with my guys and cause further confusion when I say "No those aren't BC's but that one there is!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 So is sable and red genetically the same? No they are genetically different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 (edited) Agreed and one day when I can get my BC I will come talk to you guys - Oh and I don't really care what colour, but prefer black and white Same here, but I unfortunately have a tendacy towards the darker reds (like my Tollers) and sables *runs and hides* Yeah. have to say I like the dark reds too like my big boy. The pale ones just don't have that same look. Hopefully I won't be putting any more sables out there... Hopefully Myf is the one and only. At least it was an accidental surprise rather than a planned event. Whats wrong with sable? When red was added to our standard about 20 years ago the reds had formerly been called sables, so the term red was used to distinguish it from sable but they didn't bother to put sable in the standard as well. Now that the ANKC won't allow any colour not in the standard to be main registered in any breed, you cannot main register a dog as sable. Absolutely idiotic, but that is the current rule introduced by the ANKC without any consultation to anyone. Borders used to be registered as their true colour on main but only the ones listed in the standard were shown. Of course colour makes no difference to a working or performance dog so the colour didn't matter to breeding stock for those purposes or if the dog was good enough it was easy enough to breed a standard colour from a non-standard colour anyway. Now if you want to main register a puppy you are told to choose the closest colour so if the dog is required for breeding it gets registered as an incorrect colour. Every other country in the world allows sable as a colour except here. So is sable and red genetically the same? I just had a look at your website and saw a pic of Myf, she looks a bit like a sunburned b&w Genetically completely different. Clear sable can look like red except for a darker patch at the base of the tail. Shaded sable happens with a combination of tri and sable genes so there is are tan points and a black overlay over the body with the tan/red underneath. these are the colours seen in Collies and Shelties. Each hair on a shaded sable is part red and part black in varying amounts. A red has no black in the coat at all, it is all red and can be any shade from cream to dark chestnut. These descriptions assume we are talking about a black pigmented dog but the coat patterns of sable, shaded sable and red can occur on any pigment colour of black, blue, chocolate or lilac and if it is a shaded sable the tipping on the coat that forms the darker overlay will be whatever pigment colour the dog is and that is determined by the nose. Mystiqview's Myf is a type of sable sometimes called seal overseas. We are still trying to work out the genetics of the colour that now seems to be occuring all over the world. It seems to be a sable with only partial black masking and generally no tan points. If a black dog carries bother tri and sable or two sable genes, it has black masking genes that make it appear black. There is possibly a variation on this that allows the sable to show partially through a black coat. JulesP's girl is a the more common shaded sable seen in Collies and Shelties. Edited April 17, 2011 by dancinbcs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casowner Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 There is a "rare" blue merle border (advertised as this) collie pup on another site I frequent for $1000 unregistered and 7 weeks old, the parents are apparently CL tested clear. He looks pretty cute and has the same markings as his black/white sibling in the photo. I personally think they lose the look of being a BC when they are this colour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 Agreed and one day when I can get my BC I will come talk to you guys - Oh and I don't really care what colour, but prefer black and white Same here, but I unfortunately have a tendacy towards the darker reds (like my Tollers) and sables *runs and hides* Nothing wrong with having a preference for a dark red or a sable if you are prepared to wait as long as it takes to get a good one from the right breeder and don't pay an inflated price for it. Several of us with Borders would one day love to have and outstanding show tri but they are very hard to come by. I have bred tri but not one quite good enough to keep in my yard yet. I would be waiting a long time as ideally I would like a sable if/when I get a BC and I prefer show type BC's as well......I think the darker red BC's will just blend in with my guys and cause further confusion when I say "No those aren't BC's but that one there is!" Good point. Let me know if you are ever ready for a sable because a bitch I bred produced a stunning shaded sable 4 years ago, so we know another may crop up in the lines at some time. It sure was a surprise when that puppy was born. We had no idea what colour her was and the colour changed every week. He was by far pick puppy in the litter so it was disappointing to not be able to register him on main as his correct colour. He went to a pet home and was desexed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 Amber actually has hairs that are totally red, some that are totally black, some that are tipped and some that are banded! People initially think she is red and then when they have a closer look they see the black and realize she is sable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 Amber actually has hairs that are totally red, some that are totally black, some that are tipped and some that are banded! People initially think she is red and then when they have a closer look they see the black and realize she is sable. Ok, I'll revise my description of a shaded sable to say that MOST of the hairs are banded red and black, with red at the base and black on the tips in varying amounts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 Amber actually has hairs that are totally red, some that are totally black, some that are tipped and some that are banded! People initially think she is red and then when they have a closer look they see the black and realize she is sable. Ok, I'll revise my description of a shaded sable to say that MOST of the hairs are banded red and black, with red at the base and black on the tips in varying amounts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benshiva Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 Agreed and one day when I can get my BC I will come talk to you guys - Oh and I don't really care what colour, but prefer black and white Same here, but I unfortunately have a tendacy towards the darker reds (like my Tollers) and sables *runs and hides* Nothing wrong with having a preference for a dark red or a sable if you are prepared to wait as long as it takes to get a good one from the right breeder and don't pay an inflated price for it. Several of us with Borders would one day love to have and outstanding show tri but they are very hard to come by. I have bred tri but not one quite good enough to keep in my yard yet. It is my dream to own a beautiful tri-colour I adore them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayly Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 I do know Ill probably never get the dog I really want, Why do you say that? Because at the end of the day the colour means squat, I love the blue merle BCs, but if the right dog comes up, at the right time, and it happens to be a B&W...so what? I could get my pretty blue merle, and it could totally suck at agility, where as I could get a B&W who is from sporting lines and it might become a champion...I know there are no guarantees when it comes to breeding, but the right lines are at the top of my list A very wise way to go about things. I hope your perfect dog is out there for you when you're ready. Thanks lol, I was hoping my post wouldnt come across the wrong way, I really would love a blue merle, but Im not holding out for it, and Im not going to buy a dog based on its colour...heck when the time comes I might be right off dog sports (not likely) and Ill be after a different breed...another consideration is an Aussie, but I really like my dogs to have tails lol, and I dont think Aussie breeders will like it if I ask for a blue merle with a tail lmao People asking for a certain tail status certainly isn't unusual. I think very few breeders would be offended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortstep Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 (edited) Several of us with Borders would one day love to have and outstanding show tri but they are very hard to come by. I have bred tri but not one quite good enough to keep in my yard yet. About 1/2 to 1/3 of all border collies are tri colour (in the world wide population of ISDS and associated dogs. ISDS is the founding registry for the breed since 1906 in the country of origin the UK). About 1/3 of the International Supreme Champions have been tris, including Red tris (would be called chocolate tri in the ANKC but not an allowed colour) in fact there was a red tri not too many years ago that won the supreme. Here is tri coloured Dewi Tweed International 2009 Supreme Champion. Semi smooth coat, black tri with mottleing and blue eyes, white faced and pricked ears. http://www.kinlochsheepdogs.com/Dewi%20Tweed.html Working video this is excellent to watch! Just to be fair here is a black and white. I have a dog closely related to this dog. What a dog this one is! I know you would not let them in your back yard as they are certainly not bred to be show dogs, they are working border collies, but I could not think of a greater honor than to have any one of the International Supreme Champions at my home and to see them on my paddocks, gives me goose bumps to think about actually! Well on that note I think I will go out and enjoy the morning and work my dogs, even the tris. Edited April 17, 2011 by shortstep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSoSwift Posted April 17, 2011 Share Posted April 17, 2011 Not exactly sure what the point of your answer is. It was said they would love a SHOW tri, they are not easy to come by, a working tri yes well there are quite a few of them and as for the dig about the red tri - many people do not agree with the acceptable colours for the ANKC rego'd dogs. I really don't think the ANKC dig is necessary, we all know you do not like it and think it is stupid but suprisingly this forum is actually based aroung the dogs that are rego'd on the ANKC registry, yes I know there are others etc etc etc we have heard it from you all before, but cheap digs are not really necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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