It Just Makes Me So Mad

[dancinbcs]

This is a little bit OT, but also a little bit related...

Id love for my next dog to be a blue merle BC (maybe, if the breed will suit me when the time comes, it wont be for a long time yet) anyway I want the dog to do dog sports with, so ultimately lines will play the top factor, but Ive fallen in love with the blue merle colour....so would it be totally wrong for me to approach a breeder for a specific colour? even if I am willing to wait? or would I be labeled as a buyer who just wants good looks? I mean heck Ill probably never get one, but a girl cant help but dream right?

I know to stay away from 'colour breeders' but does BM come up regularly in litters in general? or is it a difficult colour to breed for? also does it seem to pop up more in show or working lines?

About 20 years ago Australian breeders voted to not include blue merle in our colours/patterns but a few were imported in the last 10 years and somehow the merle pattern was included in the standard. Anyone can breed merle if they want to, by breeding a merle to a bi-colour with statistically half the puppies ending up merle. As it is a dominant trait it cannot be "carried" by the non-merle litter mates so dissappears again in the line if the non-merles are bred on. The problem with merle is that it is possible to have what you think is a non-merle but is in fact a cryptic merle with maybe just a tiny spot of merle pattern somewhere that can go unnoticed. Breeding together of two merles is prohibited by the ANKC because there are many health issues connected to a dog being a double merle like deafness, blindness etc. Once merle is used in a line there is then always a danger of accidently breeding a crytic merle to a merle and ending up with problems.

The biggest problem here now with the merles are that nearly all of them are owned by the colour breeders not the show/performance breeders and they are crossing colours without any regard for outcome. Breeding red to merle is idiotic beyond belief because red is not a pigment colour but a coat pattern like merle. The red masks the merle so you have no idea which red puppies are merle or not, again leading to accidental doubling up of merle.

So most show breeders just prefer to stay well away from merle and so far there has not been any really top quality merle show dogs in Auatralia. There was one quite successful merle show dog in NZ that had a merle parent that was imported from the UK purely for the lines, not the colour and I don't think the breeder has bothered to continue with the merle in that line. A few breeders that show occasionally with a little success or have performance dogs do have some reasonable merles but they are few and far between. The vast majority are just from coloured puppy farmers out to rip people off by charging a fortune for inferior dogs.

[benshiva]

Thanks benshiva, I was cruising your website as you wrote that, you have some absolutely gorgeous dogs!!

Many thanks Bink. It's the old website that is up. A new one is in the works.

Glad you enjoyed your visit xx

[GoldenGirl85]

I do know Ill probably never get the dog I really want,

Why do you say that?

Because at the end of the day the colour means squat, I love the blue merle BCs, but if the right dog comes up, at the right time, and it happens to be a B&W...so what? I could get my pretty blue merle, and it could totally suck at agility, where as I could get a B&W who is from sporting lines and it might become a champion...I know there are no guarantees when it comes to breeding, but the right lines are at the top of my list

[shortstep]

About 20 years ago Australian breeders voted to not include blue merle in our colours/patterns but a few were imported in the last 10 years and somehow the merle pattern was included in the standard. Anyone can breed merle if they want to, by breeding a merle to a bi-colour with statistically half the puppies ending up merle. As it is a dominant trait it cannot be "carried" by the non-merle litter mates so dissappears again in the line if the non-merles are bred on. The problem with merle is that it is possible to have what you think is a non-merle but is in fact a cryptic merle with maybe just a tiny spot of merle pattern somewhere that can go unnoticed. Breeding together of two merles is prohibited by the ANKC because there are many health issues connected to a dog being a double merle like deafness, blindness etc. Once merle is used in a line there is then always a danger of accidently breeding a crytic merle to a merle and ending up with problems.

The biggest problem here now with the merles are that nearly all of them are owned by the colour breeders not the show/performance breeders and they are crossing colours without any regard for outcome. Breeding red to merle is idiotic beyond belief because red is not a pigment colour but a coat pattern like merle. The red masks the merle so you have no idea which red puppies are merle or not, again leading to accidental doubling up of merle.

So most show breeders just prefer to stay well away from merle and so far there has not been any really top quality merle show dogs in Auatralia. There was one quite successful merle show dog in NZ that had a merle parent that was imported from the UK purely for the lines, not the colour and I don't think the breeder has bothered to continue with the merle in that line. A few breeders that show occasionally with a little success or have performance dogs do have some reasonable merles but they are few and far between. The vast majority are just from coloured puppy farmers out to rip people off by charging a fortune for inferior dogs.

Oh too bad about the merle vote, why not dig up the records and get the merles thrown out.

There is some genetic proof now you could use to prove these imported border collies are not the same dog as the ANKC bloodlines.

BTW most of the merles in Australia that I have seen here are from Australian kennels and Australian bloodlines, crossed to one imported show type merle brought here long before 10 years ago.

The merle (just one that had one litter) that was imported 10 years ago is not behind any of the merles flooding the markert, as they were all sold on limited and were not bred.

Edited April 15, 2011 by shortstep

[bink]

Bink

I also don't advertise the price of my puppies on my website. I have a price in my mind that I set. It has been known to change when people arrive ie I am not happy with people and they don't understand the remark I an not prepared to sell you a puppy.

I have also been known to drop the price of my puppy IF the buyer looks like a stunning home, is a repeat home, ie if they have had their first dog from me. ier the current dog is aged.

So when you ring me up or email me and your first question is to do with price, I am not interested in you as a customer/buyer/prospective friend!!!!!!! I want you to meet me, meet my dogs, talk to me so that I know what you are looking, I have turned people down, I have sent people to friends because my puppies were not exactly what they were looking for.

Not my first question, but yes its up there, as I said, a lot of people have so much information on their websites for me to look at before I contact them. I am going to continue to enquire regarding the price of the puppies from the breeders I am contacting in my search for the perfect pup for my family. If they are going to deem me 'not worthy' or increase the price according to my personality, in the hope of making it out of reach for me then so be it, I would not want to buy a pup from somebody who thought that was ok.

I'm sure I will find a fantastic breeder who will be able to match my family with a perfect companion, I am willing to take my time. And spend my money wisely.

[benshiva]

I do know Ill probably never get the dog I really want,

Why do you say that?

Because at the end of the day the colour means squat, I love the blue merle BCs, but if the right dog comes up, at the right time, and it happens to be a B&W...so what? I could get my pretty blue merle, and it could totally suck at agility, where as I could get a B&W who is from sporting lines and it might become a champion...I know there are no guarantees when it comes to breeding, but the right lines are at the top of my list

A very wise way to go about things. I hope your perfect dog is out there for you when you're ready. :D

[GoldenGirl85]

I do know Ill probably never get the dog I really want,

Why do you say that?

Because at the end of the day the colour means squat, I love the blue merle BCs, but if the right dog comes up, at the right time, and it happens to be a B&W...so what? I could get my pretty blue merle, and it could totally suck at agility, where as I could get a B&W who is from sporting lines and it might become a champion...I know there are no guarantees when it comes to breeding, but the right lines are at the top of my list

A very wise way to go about things. I hope your perfect dog is out there for you when you're ready. :D

Thanks lol, I was hoping my post wouldnt come across the wrong way, I really would love a blue merle, but Im not holding out for it, and Im not going to buy a dog based on its colour...heck when the time comes I might be right off dog sports (not likely) and Ill be after a different breed...another consideration is an Aussie, but I really like my dogs to have tails lol, and I dont think Aussie breeders will like it if I ask for a blue merle with a tail lmao

[freundhund]

Bink

The two times I have told people that my puppies were expensive prices was when these people wouldn't take. "I am not prepared to sell you a puppy." They wouln't listen to the fact that my breed wouldn't fit into their lifestyle.

These people thought they could throw money at me for a puppy, my price was absurd.

[Sheridan]

This is sort of 1/2 OT.

Is it worth lobbying the state kennel associations and ANKC to have some sort of publicity/advetising about using registered breeders. Not an anti-pet sops campaign (although I know we'd all love that!!), but something that is big and out there. I know that there is information available, but it is often not in people's faces, whereas puppies in pet shop windows are. As has been said in so many threads here, the lay-person on the street often just doesn't know where to look, what to ask or why. So if the dog community is concerned about that then would it make sense to actively try to change that. Yes it would cost a lot of money, but in the long term it probably might be worth it. I would suggest that most people want to do the right thing but often don't know what that is (again a comment made by so many people here, then they come here and learn about it!).

I don't know, it's an issue that tends to run around in circles and it seems that most of the people concerned do what they can (ie OP and everyone else here who gives their friends/potential puppy owners information) but the message just isn't getting far enough.

I do not think there is much motivation to do this. You need to look at the bigger pciture.

There are not near enough ANKC breeders or dogs or pups to meet the pet market needs, they would be short by what a couple of 100,000 puppies a year?

There is no desire for 'ethical' breeders to bred for the pet market, they only breed to get a pup form them selves and to imporve the breed.

There is no desire and in fact a lot of resistence, to any one to breed for any other reason than to breed for their next show dog and to better the breed.

Also there is no desire for most breeders to place any of the left over pups from the litter with breeding rights.

There is little encouragement for new breeders to get started unless the want to show dogs.

I do not see any reason to change all this really, it has been this way for a very long time and has served it's purpose very well.

The future of dog breeding for the pet public and those who want a dog for reason other showing, I believe, is already now mostly outside of the show culture and will continue to move in that direction. Over the next 20 years I think the current trends will continute with the declining numbers of show breeders and increasing numbers of breeders working towards other goals in their breeding programs. I think the quality of these other breeding programs will reach new heights in the coming years, incorporating the research and support of the Unis and ideas comeing from different points of view and will see increasing support for them from the more moderate animal welfare groups.

However you will find interest in promoting dog shows and attempting to draw people into participating, you will also find that certain shows have been designed to welcome the public for view the dogs on show, so that might be of interest?

There is nothing wrong with breeding excellent dogs to be pets. I realise there are some oddities who will ditch a dog if it doesn't perform in the show ring but frankly, I don't know any breeder who wouldn't prefer their puppies in good solid homes who put the dog before the show ring.

[bink]

Bink

The two times I have told people that my puppies were expensive prices was when these people wouldn't take. "I am not prepared to sell you a puppy." They wouln't listen to the fact that my breed wouldn't fit into their lifestyle.

These people thought they could throw money at me for a puppy, my price was absurd.

Understandable:) I'm bad at judging emotion and intent in forums!!

I just know it happens and have been disheartened by some breeders prices and attitudes, guess its par for the course in finding what i want:)

[OSoSwift]

For me personally I don't have a price on my website but when emailed and asked ( but not as the only question for example) then I am happyt o tell people. I don't walk into a car shop. and ask price as the last thing, I need to know the price so I can budget etc. If people try to beat me down, then I get put off side.

People are told puppies are to approved homes, are matched to the families and I am happy to say no, if they don't like it tough, infact if someone did try to throw insane amounts of money at me I would get very stubborn and cranky and definately refuse to budge. I can be very stubborn and hard to move if motivated enough!

I am still really amazed at the amount of people that pay insane amounts of money for puppies in pet shops. There is no way I would walk into a pet shop, hand over my plastic and have $1800 just hanging around! For one, my CCard limit is not that high, and I can't buy a pair of jeans without mulling over it for a few weeks!

How many people seriously just have that much money sitting there??

I think $800 to $1000 for a health tested Border Collie is a very reasonable price.

Benshiva - just had to add, just checked out your website as well. Very impressive, lots of info and easily read health stats.

Edited April 15, 2011 by OSoSwift

[bink]

For me personally I don't have a price on my website but when emailed and asked ( but not as the only question for example) then I am happyt o tell people. I don't walk into a car shop. and ask price as the last thing, I need to know the price so I can budget etc. If people try to beat me down, then I get put off side.

People are told puppies are to approved homes, are matched to the families and I am happy to say no, if they don't like it tough, infact if someone did try to throw insane amounts of money at me I would get very stubborn and cranky and definately refuse to budge. I can be very stubborn and hard to move if motivated enough!

I am still really amazed at the amount of people that pay insane amounts of money for puppies in pet shops. There is no way I would walk into a pet shop, hand over my plastic and have $1800 just hanging around! For one, my CCard limit is not that high, and I can't buy a pair of jeans without mulling over it for a few weeks!

How many people seriously just have that much money sitting there??

I think $800 to $1000 for a health tested Border Collie is a very reasonable price.

Benshiva - just had to add, just checked out your website as well. Very impressive, lots of info and easily read health stats.

Exactly!! and if you baulk at their price and you go down the road to find a similar (or better) manufacturer, with the same fuel economy and cup holders to boot, with a reasonable price, you have every right to wonder why the first person was charging so much!!

re: the jeans...me to haha

p.s yeah me...i bolded

[Snout Girl]

I do know Ill probably never get the dog I really want,

Why do you say that?

Because at the end of the day the colour means squat, I love the blue merle BCs, but if the right dog comes up, at the right time, and it happens to be a B&W...so what? I could get my pretty blue merle, and it could totally suck at agility, where as I could get a B&W who is from sporting lines and it might become a champion...I know there are no guarantees when it comes to breeding, but the right lines are at the top of my list

A very wise way to go about things. I hope your perfect dog is out there for you when you're ready.

Thanks lol, I was hoping my post wouldnt come across the wrong way, I really would love a blue merle, but Im not holding out for it, and Im not going to buy a dog based on its colour...heck when the time comes I might be right off dog sports (not likely) and Ill be after a different breed...another consideration is an Aussie, but I really like my dogs to have tails lol, and I dont think Aussie breeders will like it if I ask for a blue merle with a tail lmao

Hey GoldenGirl

If you are ever in Victoria, feel free to come to our place for merle border collie cuddles I dont think there is anything wrong with wanting an aeshetically appealing dog, as long as it doesnt come at the cost of other important factors: eg temperament, health testing etc. we were lucky that we found a breeder that did all the necessary health testing, had dogs with lovely temperaments, and bred from show lines so we knew, with appropriate physcial and mental stumulation, it would fit into our suburban household. we found other merle bcs but they were from working lines, and I didnt feel we would be able to provide them with the lifestyle they required.

good luck in your search

Edited April 15, 2011 by Snout Girl

[shortstep]

I do know Ill probably never get the dog I really want,

Why do you say that?

Because at the end of the day the colour means squat, I love the blue merle BCs, but if the right dog comes up, at the right time, and it happens to be a B&W...so what? I could get my pretty blue merle, and it could totally suck at agility, where as I could get a B&W who is from sporting lines and it might become a champion...I know there are no guarantees when it comes to breeding, but the right lines are at the top of my list

Sorry did not see your post.

Ok I understand now what you meant. I would just attend trails and when you see dogs you really like ask who bred them. This is how I pick out my new dogs. I often spend years studying a ling of dogs, I also tend to trust peoplle I know of that have a lot of experience breeding great dogs. Once I settle in on a breeder and their line/s, then I will express my interest up to 2 years in advance so I know I will get on the litters I am interested in.

I think with performance dogs it is important to really study up on the dogs that the breeder is producing that are out there performing. Not just their own dogs, but the dogs they have bred and placed into homes like you. Some people are very good at training but not so good at breeding great litters. For performance dogs I think the old saying 'the proof is in the pudding' applies, spend the time to go see the pudding in the quality dogs out there from a breed with experince that you think would be right for you.

Bottom line however should always be that you just fall in love with the dogs. Even the best laid plans do not always work out, so in the end you must also have a dog that you want to spend your life with, sports or no sports.

[GoldenGirl85]

I do know Ill probably never get the dog I really want,

Why do you say that?

Because at the end of the day the colour means squat, I love the blue merle BCs, but if the right dog comes up, at the right time, and it happens to be a B&W...so what? I could get my pretty blue merle, and it could totally suck at agility, where as I could get a B&W who is from sporting lines and it might become a champion...I know there are no guarantees when it comes to breeding, but the right lines are at the top of my list

A very wise way to go about things. I hope your perfect dog is out there for you when you're ready.

Thanks lol, I was hoping my post wouldnt come across the wrong way, I really would love a blue merle, but Im not holding out for it, and Im not going to buy a dog based on its colour...heck when the time comes I might be right off dog sports (not likely) and Ill be after a different breed...another consideration is an Aussie, but I really like my dogs to have tails lol, and I dont think Aussie breeders will like it if I ask for a blue merle with a tail lmao

Hey GoldenGirl

If you are ever in Victoria, feel free to come to our place for merle border collie cuddles I dont think there is anything wrong with wanting an aeshetically appealing dog, as long as it doesnt come at the cost of other important factors: eg temperament, health testing etc. we were lucky that we found a breeder that did all the necessary health testing, had dogs with lovely temperaments, and bred from show lines so we knew, with appropriate physcial and mental stumulation, it would fit into our suburban household. we found other merle bcs but they were from working lines, and I didnt feel we would be able to provide them with the lifestyle they required.

good luck in your search ;)

Hmmm, and if I remember correctly, you've changed the banner in your sig havnt you? because Im sure it was your dog (in the pic) I first layed eyes on and fell in love with the colour...its YOUR fault Ive since seen a few on my agility circuit and the romance has blossomed lmao

I do know Ill probably never get the dog I really want,

Why do you say that?

Because at the end of the day the colour means squat, I love the blue merle BCs, but if the right dog comes up, at the right time, and it happens to be a B&W...so what? I could get my pretty blue merle, and it could totally suck at agility, where as I could get a B&W who is from sporting lines and it might become a champion...I know there are no guarantees when it comes to breeding, but the right lines are at the top of my list

Sorry did not see your post.

Ok I understand now what you meant. I would just attend trails and when you see dogs you really like ask who bred them. This is how I pick out my new dogs. I often spend years studying a ling of dogs, I also tend to trust peoplle I know of that have a lot of experience breeding great dogs. Once I settle in on a breeder and their line/s, then I will express my interest up to 2 years in advance so I know I will get on the litters I am interested in.

I think with performance dogs it is important to really study up on the dogs that the breeder is producing that are out there performing. Not just their own dogs, but the dogs they have bred and placed into homes like you. Some people are very good at training but not so good at breeding great litters. For performance dogs I think the old saying 'the proof is in the pudding' applies, spend the time to go see the pudding in the quality dogs out there from a breed with experince that you think would be right for you.

Bottom line however should always be that you just fall in love with the dogs. Even the best laid plans do not always work out, so in the end you must also have a dog that you want to spend your life with, sports or no sports.

Thanks, as I said above there is a few on my agility circuit, but they are still novices so Ill keep my eye on them and see how they go, but Ill definitely start looking into that, I wont be getting another dog until Tess passes on (she is only 9) so Ive got time up my sleeve

[wuffles]

GG, there are a lot of blue merle Aussies with tails around. They would definitely be easier to find than a BC.

In saying that, I find Aussies and BCs to be very different breeds so you would need to thoroughly research the differences to see if that would be a viable alternative

[benshiva]

For me personally I don't have a price on my website but when emailed and asked ( but not as the only question for example) then I am happyt o tell people. I don't walk into a car shop. and ask price as the last thing, I need to know the price so I can budget etc. If people try to beat me down, then I get put off side.

People are told puppies are to approved homes, are matched to the families and I am happy to say no, if they don't like it tough, infact if someone did try to throw insane amounts of money at me I would get very stubborn and cranky and definately refuse to budge. I can be very stubborn and hard to move if motivated enough!

I am still really amazed at the amount of people that pay insane amounts of money for puppies in pet shops. There is no way I would walk into a pet shop, hand over my plastic and have $1800 just hanging around! For one, my CCard limit is not that high, and I can't buy a pair of jeans without mulling over it for a few weeks!

How many people seriously just have that much money sitting there??

I think $800 to $1000 for a health tested Border Collie is a very reasonable price.

Benshiva - just had to add, just checked out your website as well. Very impressive, lots of info and easily read health stats.

Thank you.

[GoldenGirl85]

GG, there are a lot of blue merle Aussies with tails around. They would definitely be easier to find than a BC.

In saying that, I find Aussies and BCs to be very different breeds so you would need to thoroughly research the differences to see if that would be a viable alternative

Ahh thanks, Yeah I havnt really researched Aussies that much, I will definitely look into them I know they are completely different breeds (although probably like Labs and Goldens to some people lol)

[Mystiqview]

GG, there are a lot of blue merle Aussies with tails around. They would definitely be easier to find than a BC.

In saying that, I find Aussies and BCs to be very different breeds so you would need to thoroughly research the differences to see if that would be a viable alternative

There are plenty of people breeding blue merle, chocolate merle and other merle variety border collies. Unfortunately as Dancinbcs has previously stated, 95% are from colour puppy farmers whose main objective is screwing the pet market for everything they can.

Would I buy from them?? No. I can only think of a one or two breeders who I would consider if I was to EVER get a blue merle from. I know her lines are fully health tested, they are performance dogs and she has been in the breed and even had some influential show dogs in some of our pedigrees many years ago.

It is fine to try to regulate the pedigree world with prices. However this will not solve the issue of the BYB and puppy shops from selling the colours then at extra inflated high prices. They will then even more go with "rare". Also to try to get the ANKC to do it, goes against the ACCC and fair price and competition etc.

However, if I have achieved anything with this thread for the brief time it has been up here in the first pages, is hopefully anyone who has come across it and read the contents will know if they are being charged these ridiculous prices for fad colours, will start to object to pay these exorbitant prices. Red/whites now seem to be the new chocolate/white flavour. Every second person is breeding red/whites because they are popular.

No colour is "rare" If you know your bloodline (and even colour DNA test your breeding stock), you can pretty much predict what colours you would expect from certain matings. Sometimes, you get a surprise, other times no colour turns up. But it is easy enough to look at a pedigree and know what colours SHOULD be carried (and even produced by certain dogs) when you do a mating.

I myself do not not put prices up on my website. My prices range depend on the stud dog used. However I have not asked more than $900 for any of mine. One litter where I had two sables, one was given away (Charged $80 for microchip, vaccination only), the other was $600 - the same as the rest of the litter. The last litter was $900, but that was also due to quality of dog used and an emergency C-section required on the bitch. Did I make any profit??? NO!

I am for finding the right home for the right puppy based on lifestyle of the family and the temperament of the puppy. I have knocked plenty of people back who were willing to pay much more for a puppy, purely because I did not think the puppy was suitable for them. I would sooner sell a puppy cheaper to someone who would offer it a perfect home than allow someone with all the cash to get a puppy and it to be left in the back yard or returned to me a week or more later when it has dug up their prize rose bush.

[benshiva]

Times like now I wish there was a "LIKE" button on here.

Great post Mystiqview