Repricing Puppies

[Fatsofatsoman]

This is common sense that you pay more for the better pup, why you paying show class for a dud and why taking the dud when the same money buying a good one? This is silly concept I am thinking they all the same price becuase they costing the same to raise up from birth? In that case the duds should be the base price of raising up and better one's costing more is fair enough?

Joe

So a dud to you is a pup that wouldn't win shows?

irrelevant of temperament and health?

[shortstep]

I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone....as usual Short Step has provided some very good reasoning. Here's what happened to someone I know, she is a cat breeder though, not a dog breeder, but the scenario could be the same.

She breeds cats primarily to show, and like a dog breeder, the rest get sold to pet homes. She sold a "show quality" kitten to some "friends" of hers. The kitten went on to win many awards, gained many titles including Kitten of the Year and continued it's winning ways into adulthood.

At some stage into the kittens show career, it was found to have a tiny fault........an almost indiscernable fault, so tiny that none of the judges had ever found it. But the owners decided the kitten wasn't "show quality" and sued the breeder.

The breeder was gobsmacked to be served with legal papers and it ended up going to court. The outcome was that the magistrate deemed the breeder should refund the difference in price between a show quality and pet quality kitten. At that time, the breeder didn't have a different price as they all cost the same for her to produce. It was decided by the magistrate the amount would be $100 (I think).

He also advised her that in future, she should charge more for show quality kittens in case they turned out not to be show quality and she could then refund the difference and avoid ending up in court again.

This is a really rare occurence, but this happened within the last 5 years and if it's happened to one breeder, no doubt it could happen to others.

This is common sense that you pay more for the better pup, why you paying show class for a dud and why taking the dud when the same money buying a good one? This is silly concept I am thinking they all the same price becuase they costing the same to raise up from birth? In that case the duds should be the base price of raising up and better one's costing more is fair enough?

Joe

Joe,

What is a better pup to the pet buyer? What type of dog that is worth more money to a pet buyer?

What is a lessor pup to the pet buyer? What type of dog is worth less money to a pet buyer?

Edited April 15, 2011 by shortstep

[JoeK]

This is common sense that you pay more for the better pup, why you paying show class for a dud and why taking the dud when the same money buying a good one? This is silly concept I am thinking they all the same price becuase they costing the same to raise up from birth? In that case the duds should be the base price of raising up and better one's costing more is fair enough?

Joe

So a dud to you is a pup that wouldn't win shows?

irrelevant of temperament and health?

Of course is a dud the pup of not showing quality if the breeding purpose is to producing the show dogs. In my lovely breed dear to my heart the German Shepherd Dog, I buy only dogs that wont win shows is the show dogs that are duds in the breeding of the working dog today. Personally I dont buy show dog for wanting a Shepherd Dog for working which for working is what makes the Shepherd Dog what hes made for.

Joe

[JoeK]

I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone....as usual Short Step has provided some very good reasoning. Here's what happened to someone I know, she is a cat breeder though, not a dog breeder, but the scenario could be the same.

She breeds cats primarily to show, and like a dog breeder, the rest get sold to pet homes. She sold a "show quality" kitten to some "friends" of hers. The kitten went on to win many awards, gained many titles including Kitten of the Year and continued it's winning ways into adulthood.

At some stage into the kittens show career, it was found to have a tiny fault........an almost indiscernable fault, so tiny that none of the judges had ever found it. But the owners decided the kitten wasn't "show quality" and sued the breeder.

The breeder was gobsmacked to be served with legal papers and it ended up going to court. The outcome was that the magistrate deemed the breeder should refund the difference in price between a show quality and pet quality kitten. At that time, the breeder didn't have a different price as they all cost the same for her to produce. It was decided by the magistrate the amount would be $100 (I think).

He also advised her that in future, she should charge more for show quality kittens in case they turned out not to be show quality and she could then refund the difference and avoid ending up in court again.

This is a really rare occurence, but this happened within the last 5 years and if it's happened to one breeder, no doubt it could happen to others.

This is common sense that you pay more for the better pup, why you paying show class for a dud and why taking the dud when the same money buying a good one? This is silly concept I am thinking they all the same price becuase they costing the same to raise up from birth? In that case the duds should be the base price of raising up and better one's costing more is fair enough?

Joe

Joe,

What is a better pup to the pet buyer? What type of dog that is worth more money to a pet buyer?

What is a lessor pup to the pet buyer? What type of dog is worth less money to a pet buyer?

This depends on what the pet buyer wants, yes, so they have a choice perhaps, but low qulaity pup cannot be same price as high quality pup and if the breeder say to me Joe, here is 3 puppies you can choose from a dud, an ok one and a beautiful example and they all the same price, I choosing the beautiful one is natural. If the dud is half price and I am wanting a pet maybe I pay less and be happy?

Joe

[Fatsofatsoman]

This is what I don't understand.

Is there big money in winning shows (I always thought no)

And if there isn't and all puppies are healthy - what makes the show pup more valuable?

[Bjelkier]

I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone....as usual Short Step has provided some very good reasoning. Here's what happened to someone I know, she is a cat breeder though, not a dog breeder, but the scenario could be the same.

She breeds cats primarily to show, and like a dog breeder, the rest get sold to pet homes. She sold a "show quality" kitten to some "friends" of hers. The kitten went on to win many awards, gained many titles including Kitten of the Year and continued it's winning ways into adulthood.

At some stage into the kittens show career, it was found to have a tiny fault........an almost indiscernable fault, so tiny that none of the judges had ever found it. But the owners decided the kitten wasn't "show quality" and sued the breeder.

The breeder was gobsmacked to be served with legal papers and it ended up going to court. The outcome was that the magistrate deemed the breeder should refund the difference in price between a show quality and pet quality kitten. At that time, the breeder didn't have a different price as they all cost the same for her to produce. It was decided by the magistrate the amount would be $100 (I think).

He also advised her that in future, she should charge more for show quality kittens in case they turned out not to be show quality and she could then refund the difference and avoid ending up in court again.

This is a really rare occurence, but this happened within the last 5 years and if it's happened to one breeder, no doubt it could happen to others.

This is common sense that you pay more for the better pup, why you paying show class for a dud and why taking the dud when the same money buying a good one? This is silly concept I am thinking they all the same price becuase they costing the same to raise up from birth? In that case the duds should be the base price of raising up and better one's costing more is fair enough?

Joe

Joe,

What is a better pup to the pet buyer? What type of dog that is worth more money to a pet buyer?

What is a lessor pup to the pet buyer? What type of dog is worth less money to a pet buyer?

This depends on what the pet buyer wants, yes, so they have a choice perhaps, but low qulaity pup cannot be same price as high quality pup and if the breeder say to me Joe, here is 3 puppies you can choose from a dud, an ok one and a beautiful example and they all the same price, I choosing the beautiful one is natural. If the dud is half price and I am wanting a pet maybe I pay less and be happy?

Joe

So what if it's something cosmetic kicking the puppy out of the ring?

Maybe the pigment is broken on the side of the mouth, or maybe the tail dosn't curl over the back 100% perfectly, a splash of colour in the wrong area?

How on earth does that make the dog a dud?

It's still a beautiful, happy and healthy puppy.

Edited April 15, 2011 by Bjelkier

[shortstep]

I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone....as usual Short Step has provided some very good reasoning. Here's what happened to someone I know, she is a cat breeder though, not a dog breeder, but the scenario could be the same.

She breeds cats primarily to show, and like a dog breeder, the rest get sold to pet homes. She sold a "show quality" kitten to some "friends" of hers. The kitten went on to win many awards, gained many titles including Kitten of the Year and continued it's winning ways into adulthood.

At some stage into the kittens show career, it was found to have a tiny fault........an almost indiscernable fault, so tiny that none of the judges had ever found it. But the owners decided the kitten wasn't "show quality" and sued the breeder.

The breeder was gobsmacked to be served with legal papers and it ended up going to court. The outcome was that the magistrate deemed the breeder should refund the difference in price between a show quality and pet quality kitten. At that time, the breeder didn't have a different price as they all cost the same for her to produce. It was decided by the magistrate the amount would be $100 (I think).

He also advised her that in future, she should charge more for show quality kittens in case they turned out not to be show quality and she could then refund the difference and avoid ending up in court again.

This is a really rare occurence, but this happened within the last 5 years and if it's happened to one breeder, no doubt it could happen to others.

This is common sense that you pay more for the better pup, why you paying show class for a dud and why taking the dud when the same money buying a good one? This is silly concept I am thinking they all the same price becuase they costing the same to raise up from birth? In that case the duds should be the base price of raising up and better one's costing more is fair enough?

Joe

Joe,

What is a better pup to the pet buyer? What type of dog that is worth more money to a pet buyer?

What is a lessor pup to the pet buyer? What type of dog is worth less money to a pet buyer?

This depends on what the pet buyer wants, yes, so they have a choice perhaps, but low qulaity pup cannot be same price as high quality pup and if the breeder say to me Joe, here is 3 puppies you can choose from a dud, an ok one and a beautiful example and they all the same price, I choosing the beautiful one is natural. If the dud is half price and I am wanting a pet maybe I pay less and be happy?

Joe

Maybe because there are other traits that are more important in the pet dog than a show ring quality appearence?

If you show 2 pups to buyer and say

This dog has the best temperament and will be perfect with your children, however would not win a dog show,

and this pup would win a dog show but I am very concerned this pup would not be good with your children,

both pups are the same price.

The pet buyer would be a fool to take the pup that was not going to be good with their children and I do not care how good it looks.

Show ring winning appearence I do not think would be ver high on the aveage pet shopers list, if they were educated about dogs in general, temperament, genetic heallth problems, structurural extremes and deformaties and so on.

Edited April 15, 2011 by shortstep

[Wadz]

Joe I believe your missing the point. All pups are equal to a breeder. They spend just as much time and money on each pup. Just because it has a colour fault and is not good in the ring does not mean it is a dud. A lot of time, planning and money goes into breeding. Why should breeders have to sell their pups for different prices when the same amount of time and love goes into them?

[Fatsofatsoman]

Joe I believe your missing the point. All pups are equal to a breeder. They spend just as much time and money on each pup. Just because it has a colour fault and is not good in the ring does not mean it is a dud. A lot of time, planning and money goes into breeding. Why should breeders have to sell their pups for different prices when the same amount of time and love goes into them?

Exactly - and different people have different requirements.

for sure a person who wants to show will want a conforming puppy

a pet owner will want a pup for their lifestyle and situation

Who is to say which requirement is the right/more important and therefore should cost more.

why should pets cost less than show dogs?

[OSoSwift]

You don't win any money etc for dog showing, you get a certificate (if you are lucky) and a ribbon, sash or prize. If your dog is a big winner then you could ask more for stud fee's or more for their puppies for example as they are big winner in their field be it showing, dog sports, working etc.

[Fatsofatsoman]

You don't win any money etc for dog showing, you get a certificate (if you are lucky) and a ribbon, sash or prize. If your dog is a big winner then you could ask more for stud fee's or more for their puppies for example as they are big winner in their field be it showing, dog sports, working etc.

So there may be a case of selling 'conforming' pups at a higher price because of their potential earnings through stud or breeding - but then this flies in the face of the majority's view point on here that people breed for a hobby and not potential earnings.

[Baileys mum]

Joe I believe your missing the point. All pups are equal to a breeder. They spend just as much time and money on each pup. Just because it has a colour fault and is not good in the ring does not mean it is a dud. A lot of time, planning and money goes into breeding. Why should breeders have to sell their pups for different prices when the same amount of time and love goes into them?

Totally agree..IMO I do not breed DUDS, I breed beautiful healthy puppies with a great temperment, if one happens to be good enough to win in the show ring, then that is a bonus ..not a requirement.

My 2nd litter has just been born so a little early to tell how they will turn out...but with my first litter all of them went to pet homes even though there was a couple that could of been good enough for the show ring. All pups where sold at the same price..all of them cost the same to breed & raise, all had equal attention & love when I raised them.

All my puppy owners are very happy & satisfied with their beautiful healthy pets & I don't believe one of them would ever refer to them as a Dud. :D

[JoeK]

This is what I don't understand.

Is there big money in winning shows (I always thought no)

And if there isn't and all puppies are healthy - what makes the show pup more valuable?

Is the prestige of feeling like the greatest show winning is why they will pay more so the breeders should charge more is fair enough if the qulaity to winning shows is there on the pup why not?. Is not getting rich breeding dogs, is hard work and is what you pay for, the work the breeder put up to produce a better litter than someone else.

Joe

[JoeK]

Joe I believe your missing the point. All pups are equal to a breeder. They spend just as much time and money on each pup. Just because it has a colour fault and is not good in the ring does not mean it is a dud. A lot of time, planning and money goes into breeding. Why should breeders have to sell their pups for different prices when the same amount of time and love goes into them?

If the demand for a show quality pup is in the market and the breeder has a good example my opinion is good pup should sell for more. My experience is for many years on the working dog and the good drives in the pup will always sell for more for a working job than pups low in drive will sell as pets for less is normal happening on the working puppys?

Joe

[Gayle.]

If a breeder is breeding for something in particular, whether it be show, work or whatever, and only SOME of the pups are of the quality required to meet the standard for whatever it is they are breeding for, then not all the pups have an equal value to the breeder.

The pups that don't meet that standard are of a lower value for that reason. They might not represent a lower monetary value, but if a breeder had bred a litter for a show pup and none of the pups are show quality, then none of them have met that breeders standard.

That does not make them duds or rejects, and it does not make them unfit for other functions......ie pets. but it does give them a lower " value" than if they were all show quality.

Just as if a working dog breeder places a lower value on pups that won't work.

[Fatsofatsoman]

If a breeder is breeding for something in particular, whether it be show, work or whatever, and only SOME of the pups are of the quality required to meet the standard for whatever it is they are breeding for, then not all the pups have an equal value to the breeder.

The pups that don't meet that standard are of a lower value for that reason. They might not represent a lower monetary value, but if a breeder had bred a litter for a show pup and none of the pups are show quality, then none of them have met that breeders standard.

That does not make them duds or rejects, and it does not make them unfit for other functions......ie pets. but it does give them a lower " value" than if they were all show quality.

Just as if a working dog breeder places a lower value on pups that won't work.

surely they are only lower value to show owners though????

why should pet owners get a discount? those pups are of great health, quality pups - they should pay what a 'shower' should.

the pups produced just changes the market you advertise to.

[tommygirl]

This is what I don't understand.

Is there big money in winning shows (I always thought no)

And if there isn't and all puppies are healthy - what makes the show pup more valuable?

No, there isnt big money in winning shows. Its another expense really- entry fees, petrol getting there, equipment for the day etc- all apart of the hobby.

If all puppies are healthy and we are looking at it from a pet buyers perspective (who has no intentions of showing/breeding) there is nothing that makes a show pup more valuable.

For me, all pups are the same price regardless of show prospect or not. You cannot guarantee an 8 week old puppy is going to be a show winner anyway (not in my breed anyway). there is too many variables that change as the dog grows... so price for me is based on the going rate in the breed (usually same as stud price), for pups from health tested parents.

[shortstep]

Just as if a working dog breeder places a lower value on pups that won't work.

Working pups are all worth the same, it takes a long time to know which ones will train out to be good working dogs, you can not see that at 8 weeks or age.

Value of working litters goes from a few hundred dollars for an Australian farm bred pup, to an average trail bred pup in the UK, ISDS reg and can be KC reg, with health testing at about 400-600 pounds, to pups with outstanding pedigrees usually of repeat breedings that were of very special quality who knows how much then can charge from the person who really wants one.

When these same dogs are 2 years old, they could be worth nothing or all the way up to 20,000 pounds or even more.

BTW No one is ashamed to make money or even earn a living on breeding or training sheepdogs. There is a real need for quality sheepdogs, these dogs are very much in demand and no one thinks badly of any person who is producing or training quality dogs for sale. People line up to buy them.

Edited April 15, 2011 by shortstep

[Shaar]

I haven't been to many cash shows, I have won a total of $50 I think... it cost me $90 in petrol just to get to one of those shows.

You put more money into showing than you get back that's for sure.

My opinion on show vs pet prices is that with a show dog you are paying for a dog that will be worthy in the breeders eye of winning awards. It's not about the money, it's about the prestige of winning.

Pets often have some sort of fault, be it color or structure, it doesn't affect the pet owner, but it does mean that they can't get the recognition of being a "top dog".

That doesn't matter to most people, they just want a nice family pet. But if you want a show dog, that is an excellent example of the breed from a hard working, reputable breeder, I don't mind paying extra.

[Gayle.]

Sometimes though, the perceived "value" is in the eyes of the buyer, not the seller.....as in my cat breeder story. The buyer of the kitten perceived this kitten to be of a higher value because it was sold as "show quality" which it clearly was as it did a hell of a lot of winning. The fault found did not stop it winning, and they kept entering it in shows, but they deemed it now to be of a lesser value as due to the fault.

And in that instance, the court agreed with the buyer and ordered the breeder to refund the difference in the value between a show and pet quality kitten. It wasn't the breeder who perceived the value to be higher, to her they were all equal, they had cost her exactly the same amount of money to breed and she'd sold each kitten for the same price, regardless of the intended future.

And in that instance, maybe the pet price should remain the same but the price of a show quality animal to be higher?