Repricing Puppies

[Fatsofatsoman]

I think you may be making some assumptions.

1. Not all buyers want or think a show bred pup is of greater value or even equal value to a pup bred for some other function or to some other ideal. For example, someone who want a dog for function such as stock work, racing, hunting or even family pet. They will want parents that are proven in that function and were selected for that function. More and more people are realizing this.

2. Just because a breeder is breeding show dogs, does not mean they are breeding dogs with excellent health histories or are even doing the health testing that the buyer wants to find. They may also be breeding for extreme physical features that the buyer want to avoid.

3. Just because a dog would be a show ring winner in conformation, does not mean that it has the structure the buyer is looking for. For example dogs that do the work of that breed almost always have a different structure than dogs that are bred for the show ring. (read thread on spanning terriers as an example, if you want a hunting terrier than you will likely want a dog that will be perfect in structure for the breed to go down holes but will be too small in the chest to win in the show ring.)

4. Most people want a pet, they do not want a show dog. It is too bad the term 'pet quality' means the dog is less than perfect for function of a show dog. How strange to the public it must seem that a pet quality dog which will be their full time family member and a huge emotional investment, should be a lesser quality and a lesser valued dog.

I can not tell you how bad I think the idea and term 'Pet Quality' is to the reputation of kennel club dog breeders right now. For goodness sakes, the primary buyer of show bred pups are pet homes, yet we label the only dog they can buy from the show breeder as a reject, a second.

For a long time this has been the culture, dog show breeders keep the best dogs and their rejects are sold on to pet homes. I do not think this model will last too much longer, the public is starting to demand dogs bred for the function of pet.

5. Just because a breeder is not interested in nor wants to breed for 'show ring' it does not mean they are therefore only breeding to make money. Nor does someone who makes every breeding decision based only on increasing their chance of winning a ribbon at a dog show, mean that they are not breeding for money.

Lets take it a step further, just because someone is only breeding to get themselves another dog for the show ring, does not mean they are breeding quality dogs nor dogs that would be suitable or an excellent choice for the pet buyer.

Today breeders who place to pet home should be working very hard on producing healthy and well tempered, moderate dogs suitable and truly fit for the function they will be doing. If someone wants to breed show dogs, then by all means they should do so. But that in it's self does not mean their dogs are worth more or less than someone breeding for some other reason, nor does it mean their dogs are bred to be excllent pets.

To the buyer, it should be, that the dogs has value because it was thoughtfuly and well bred for the function they have in mind.

So yes, a breeder that is consistently producing well tempered, healthy, moderate examples of their breed, selected for and are in fact fit for the function as a family pet, should be given the highest value for their pups from buyers looking for a family pet.

This was a top post.

I think you're spot on with regards to the term 'pet quality' even if not meaning to it can sound degrading and like you say that's the emotional side of owning a dog coming out - when in reality you know it's only a term.

[Fatsofatsoman]

The health testing required for some breeds can be very very expensive, if a breeder is bringing in animals or semen from overseas the costs associated with that are again very expensive. It can be difficult to actually land a litter on the ground in some breeds, caesarian sections, surgical implantation of semen, Flying animals around the country for matings there are a lot of expenses that the normal pet owner wouldn't have a clue about.

AT the end of the day Breeding dogs costs money, often really big money, why should Breeders not end up with a little back for their efforts to produce the very best they can, after all the puppy buyers expect the very best service and product and the after care goes on for years. You could not put a price on that.

Hey I'm all for the breeder recouping their money back and some - I just get the feeling that some breeders feel guilty or are apprehensive about saying they do make a profit.

This is life and nothing is for free.

[twodoggies2001]

Some great answers there and breeding is a risky 'business' (pardon the pun) but what about the very high priced puppies offered when there is no show history behind them? In fairness, a lot of puppy buyers would have no idea of confirmation and what is expected of a show quality puppy , and I do understand these are puppies are not normally offered as pets, but they still pay the high prices asked even for pet quality. Would it be fair to summise that there are some registered breeders out there in it for the money just as fatsofatsoman asked?

I think you may be making some assumptions.

1. Not all buyers want or think a show bred pup is of greater value or even equal value to a pup bred for some other function or to some other ideal. For example, someone who want a dog for function such as stock work, racing, hunting or even family pet. They will want parents that are proven in that function and were selected for that function. More and more people are realizing this.

2. Just because a breeder is breeding show dogs, does not mean they are breeding dogs with excellent health histories or are even doing the health testing that the buyer wants to find. They may also be breeding for extreme physical features that the buyer wants to avoid.

3. Just because a dog would be a show ring winner in conformation, does not mean that it has the structure the buyer is looking for. For example dogs that do the work of that breed almost always have a different structure than dogs that are bred for the show ring. (read thread on spanning terriers as an example, if you want a hunting terrier than you will likely want a dog that will be perfect in structure for the breed to go down holes but will be too small in the chest to win in the show ring.)

4. Most people want a pet, they do not want a show dog. It is too bad the term 'pet quality' means the dog is less than perfect for function of a show dog. How strange to the public it must seem that a pet quality dog which will be their full time family member and a huge emotional investment, should be a lesser quality and a lesser valued dog.

I can not tell you how bad I think the idea and term 'Pet Quality' is to the reputation of kennel club dog breeders right now. For goodness sakes, the primary buyer of show bred pups are pet homes, yet we label the only dog they can buy from the show breeder as a reject, a second.

For a long time this has been the culture, dog show breeders keep the best dogs and their rejects are sold on to pet homes. I do not think this model will last too much longer, the public is starting to demand dogs bred for the function of pet.

5. Just because a breeder is not interested in nor wants to breed for 'show ring' it does not mean they are therefore only breeding to make money. Nor does someone who makes every breeding decision based only on increasing their chance of winning a ribbon at a dog show, mean that they are not breeding for money.

Lets take it a step further, just because someone is only breeding to get themselves another dog for the show ring, does not mean they are breeding quality dogs nor dogs that would be suitable or an excellent choice for the pet buyer.

Today breeders who place to pet home should be working very hard on producing healthy and well tempered, moderate dogs suitable and truly fit for the function they will be doing. If someone wants to breed show dogs, then by all means they should do so. But that in it's self does not mean their dogs are worth more or less than someone breeding for some other reason, nor does it mean their dogs are bred to be excllent pets.

To the buyer, it should be, that the dogs has value because it was thoughtfuly and well bred for the function they have in mind.

So yes, a breeder that is consistently producing well tempered, healthy, moderate examples of their breed, selected for and are in fact fit for the function as a family pet, should be given the highest value for their pups from buyers looking for a family pet.

I do agree with you. I would only go to a registered breeder to buy another pup to join our family as a pet. But, I am still of the opinion that some, even registered breeders do breed, not for the betterment of the breed but for the betterment of their bank account. The prices for pups varies greatly and I have always wondered why. Granted, health, and temperament are far more important than confirmation, and I would be looking at the temperament of first of all the bitch and then make enquiries about the stud dog's health and temperament. If the breeder is into exhibiting, and intends to retain a pup or two from that litter, then any responsible breeder would, I imagine or should ensure temperament and health is the top of the list, not to mention a pup with good confirmation. My two that I have at the moment were both from registered exhibition breeders. Both are not up to scratch for the show ring, but that doesn't matter to me and I am content in the knowledge that they have impeccable temperaments, and both breeders are well known. My dogs are very valuable to me because they really do perform the function I wanted them to fulfill. Interacting with my small grandchildren, be an integral part of our daily lives, give us affection and warm our hearts and just to add, were worth every penny.

[ravenau1]

I've never understood why some people seem to have a problem with the idea that a breeder might make some money from puppies.

I have a hobby (well several lol) and occasionally I sell things that I make. Not a huge amount, but realistically I enjoy what I do and there is only so much I can keep for myself. I don't have the hobby just so I can sell things, I would do it anyway. One Christmas I even made enough to buy myself a laptop! I was overjoyed. When people make a bit of money out of other hobbies it's usually considered a good thing, a happy bonus, I don't understand why breeding dogs is any different in that regard.

[twodoggies2001]

I've never understood why some people seem to have a problem with the idea that a breeder might make some money from puppies.

I have a hobby (well several lol) and occasionally I sell things that I make. Not a huge amount, but realistically I enjoy what I do and there is only so much I can keep for myself. I don't have the hobby just so I can sell things, I would do it anyway. One Christmas I even made enough to buy myself a laptop! I was overjoyed. When people make a bit of money out of other hobbies it's usually considered a good thing, a happy bonus, I don't understand why breeding dogs is any different in that regard.

Well, when you see the same breeders regularly having puppies for sale, you know they are not showing so why would they keep breeding litters? It's certainly not to produce themselves a top dog, but their prices are way up there.

[Remarkabull]

I've never understood why some people seem to have a problem with the idea that a breeder might make some money from puppies.

I have a hobby (well several lol) and occasionally I sell things that I make. Not a huge amount, but realistically I enjoy what I do and there is only so much I can keep for myself. I don't have the hobby just so I can sell things, I would do it anyway. One Christmas I even made enough to buy myself a laptop! I was overjoyed. When people make a bit of money out of other hobbies it's usually considered a good thing, a happy bonus, I don't understand why breeding dogs is any different in that regard.

Well, when you see the same breeders regularly having puppies for sale, you know they are not showing so why would they keep breeding litters? It's certainly not to produce themselves a top dog, but their prices are way up there.

I would say that if the puppies they are producing are healthy and well adjusted and the parents are being well looked after and have been health tested and not overbred then I truly don't have a problem with it. If you can make money doing something you enjoy and you are not harming anyone then whats the big deal?

[Gayle.]

I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone....as usual Short Step has provided some very good reasoning. Here's what happened to someone I know, she is a cat breeder though, not a dog breeder, but the scenario could be the same.

She breeds cats primarily to show, and like a dog breeder, the rest get sold to pet homes. She sold a "show quality" kitten to some "friends" of hers. The kitten went on to win many awards, gained many titles including Kitten of the Year and continued it's winning ways into adulthood.

At some stage into the kittens show career, it was found to have a tiny fault........an almost indiscernable fault, so tiny that none of the judges had ever found it. But the owners decided the kitten wasn't "show quality" and sued the breeder.

The breeder was gobsmacked to be served with legal papers and it ended up going to court. The outcome was that the magistrate deemed the breeder should refund the difference in price between a show quality and pet quality kitten. At that time, the breeder didn't have a different price as they all cost the same for her to produce. It was decided by the magistrate the amount would be $100 (I think).

He also advised her that in future, she should charge more for show quality kittens in case they turned out not to be show quality and she could then refund the difference and avoid ending up in court again.

This is a really rare occurence, but this happened within the last 5 years and if it's happened to one breeder, no doubt it could happen to others.

[Jumabaar]

I've never understood why some people seem to have a problem with the idea that a breeder might make some money from puppies.

I have a hobby (well several lol) and occasionally I sell things that I make. Not a huge amount, but realistically I enjoy what I do and there is only so much I can keep for myself. I don't have the hobby just so I can sell things, I would do it anyway. One Christmas I even made enough to buy myself a laptop! I was overjoyed. When people make a bit of money out of other hobbies it's usually considered a good thing, a happy bonus, I don't understand why breeding dogs is any different in that regard.

Well, when you see the same breeders regularly having puppies for sale, you know they are not showing so why would they keep breeding litters? It's certainly not to produce themselves a top dog, but their prices are way up there.

I would say that if the puppies they are producing are healthy and well adjusted and the parents are being well looked after and have been health tested and not overbred then I truly don't have a problem with it. If you can make money doing something you enjoy and you are not harming anyone then whats the big deal?

Some may be breeding so that people have the option to have well bred (healthy with good temperament) puppies of their chosen breed. They might not keep puppies due to limits put on them from council, or they may be genuinely interested in producing good quality pets.

Just because they don't show does not automatically mean that they make money from a litter. If they are still doing health testing, using the best dogs they can find, and offering the best food, veterinary care and attention to their puppies I cant see a problem. They would still have the same costs as a breeder who is showing dogs so why wouldn't they charge the same?

[marina]

You can get common breeds from a registered breeder who health tests and trials their dogs in show, dog sport, working tests etc for around the same price as a pet shop crossbred.

The so called "purebreds" and designer dogs in petshops routinely sell for around $1200 in my area. This is often more than a registered breeder would charge. I know who I would rather get my future companion from....

Puppy farms are charging up to $3000 for untested crossbred poodles!

Purebreds that are this expensive- and there are only a few breeds where the average price would be around $3000, are generally at least coming from health tested parents at a minimum.

I don't see the problem with breeders charging an appropriate price and even making a profit if the produce quality puppies.

My thoughts exactly. If and when the designer dog breeders have to health test and pay registration fees lets see how much a cross bred pup will cost then.

[shortstep]

I've never understood why some people seem to have a problem with the idea that a breeder might make some money from puppies.

I have a hobby (well several lol) and occasionally I sell things that I make. Not a huge amount, but realistically I enjoy what I do and there is only so much I can keep for myself. I don't have the hobby just so I can sell things, I would do it anyway. One Christmas I even made enough to buy myself a laptop! I was overjoyed. When people make a bit of money out of other hobbies it's usually considered a good thing, a happy bonus, I don't understand why breeding dogs is any different in that regard.

Well, when you see the same breeders regularly having puppies for sale, you know they are not showing so why would they keep breeding litters? It's certainly not to produce themselves a top dog, but their prices are way up there.

I would say that if the puppies they are producing are healthy and well adjusted and the parents are being well looked after and have been health tested and not overbred then I truly don't have a problem with it. If you can make money doing something you enjoy and you are not harming anyone then whats the big deal?

The big deal is the culture.

1. Only show people should breed.

2. Show people should only breed a very occsional litter, and wait here are the words that define the belief system...to only get their next show dog and to better the breed.

3. You should never ever ever admit to making any money at all, you only, wait here is comes...because you only breed to get your next show dog and to better the breed.

3. Anyone else breeding with any different reasons is scum, a BYB or a puppy mill. This is because, wait here it comes again..they are NOT breeding to get their next show dog so therefor not bettering the breed.

4. If this is carried out correctly, all other breeders will be pushed out of the breed and the breed will be driven to extinction by low numbers of dogs born, the vast majority of pups sold on on desex contracts and ever increasing inbreeding and high COI of the dogs who belong to show breeders who, wait here it comes....only ever bred a litter to get their next show dog and only to better the breed.

You know there is a breed right now that geneticly is on the brink. COI is getting very high and only a very small number of dogs are being born each year, not enough to keep the breed going. So a group of people come along who want to breed these dogs for their orginal work, so they started a new club to promote this goal. the are registering with the kennel club, doing health testing and only breeding dogs that are useful at the work. People like the idea and are lining up to buy a pup. They are selling pups with breeding rights to promote increased numbers of litters/dogs. They are getting nothing but trouble from the 'establishment' in the breed, even untruthful accusations that they are puppy famers and not doing health tests. It seems like they would rather see the breed slip into extinction rather then welcome any breeders or breeding plans that are not about making show dogs.

I was reading the endangered breed list just yesterday, so many breeds have already slip beyond the point of saving them without cross breeding, yet the breed clubs still think the only way to save the breed is to promote them at dogs shows.

I am out for dinner and then ducking for cover.

Edited April 14, 2011 by shortstep

[twodoggies2001]

I've never understood why some people seem to have a problem with the idea that a breeder might make some money from puppies.

I have a hobby (well several lol) and occasionally I sell things that I make. Not a huge amount, but realistically I enjoy what I do and there is only so much I can keep for myself. I don't have the hobby just so I can sell things, I would do it anyway. One Christmas I even made enough to buy myself a laptop! I was overjoyed. When people make a bit of money out of other hobbies it's usually considered a good thing, a happy bonus, I don't understand why breeding dogs is any different in that regard.

Well, when you see the same breeders regularly having puppies for sale, you know they are not showing so why would they keep breeding litters? It's certainly not to produce themselves a top dog, but their prices are way up there.

I would say that if the puppies they are producing are healthy and well adjusted and the parents are being well looked after and have been health tested and not overbred then I truly don't have a problem with it. If you can make money doing something you enjoy and you are not harming anyone then whats the big deal?

The big deal is the culture.

1. Only show people should breed.

2. Show people should only breed a very occsional litter, and wait here are the words that define the belief system...to only get their next show dog and to better the breed.

3. You should never ever ever admit to making any money at all, you only, wait here is comes...because you only breed to get your next show dog and to better the breed.

3. Anyone else breeding with any different reasons is scum, a BYB or a puppy mill. This is because, wait here it comes again..they are NOT breeding to get their next show dog so therefor not bettering the breed.

4. If this is carried out correctly, all other breeders will be pushed out of the breed and the breed will be driven to extinction by low numbers of dogs born and ever increasing inbreeding and high COI dogs who belong to show breeders who, wait here it comes....only ever bred a litter to get their next show dog and only to better the breed.

You know there is a breed right now that geneticly is on the brink. COI is getting very high and only a very small number of dogs are being born each year, not enough to keep the breed going. So a group of people come along who want to breed these dogs for their orginal work, so they started a new club to promote this goal. the are registering witht he kennel club, doing health testing and only breeding dogs that are useful at the work. People like the idea and are lining up to buy pup. They are selling pups with breeding rights to promote increased numbers of litters/dogs. They are getting nothing but trouble from the 'establishment' in the breed, even untruthful accusations that they are puppy famers and not doing health tests. It seems like they would rather see the breed slip into extinction rather then welcome any breeders or breeding plans that are not about making show dogs.

I was reading the endangered breed list just yesterday, so many breeds have already slip beyond the point of saving them without cross breeding, yet the breed clubs still think the only way to save the breed is to promote them at dogs shows.

I am out for dinner and then ducking for cover.

If you are referring to my post I am not saying that only show people should breed and I am not saying that non showing people should not breed either. I have nothing against the registered non showing people having the occasional litter,and I am definately not calling these non showing breeders scum or BYB or a puppy mill. Those are your words.

[shortstep]

I've never understood why some people seem to have a problem with the idea that a breeder might make some money from puppies.

I have a hobby (well several lol) and occasionally I sell things that I make. Not a huge amount, but realistically I enjoy what I do and there is only so much I can keep for myself. I don't have the hobby just so I can sell things, I would do it anyway. One Christmas I even made enough to buy myself a laptop! I was overjoyed. When people make a bit of money out of other hobbies it's usually considered a good thing, a happy bonus, I don't understand why breeding dogs is any different in that regard.

Well, when you see the same breeders regularly having puppies for sale, you know they are not showing so why would they keep breeding litters? It's certainly not to produce themselves a top dog, but their prices are way up there.

I would say that if the puppies they are producing are healthy and well adjusted and the parents are being well looked after and have been health tested and not overbred then I truly don't have a problem with it. If you can make money doing something you enjoy and you are not harming anyone then whats the big deal?

The big deal is the culture.

1. Only show people should breed.

2. Show people should only breed a very occsional litter, and wait here are the words that define the belief system...to only get their next show dog and to better the breed.

3. You should never ever ever admit to making any money at all, you only, wait here is comes...because you only breed to get your next show dog and to better the breed.

3. Anyone else breeding with any different reasons is scum, a BYB or a puppy mill. This is because, wait here it comes again..they are NOT breeding to get their next show dog so therefor not bettering the breed.

4. If this is carried out correctly, all other breeders will be pushed out of the breed and the breed will be driven to extinction by low numbers of dogs born and ever increasing inbreeding and high COI dogs who belong to show breeders who, wait here it comes....only ever bred a litter to get their next show dog and only to better the breed.

You know there is a breed right now that geneticly is on the brink. COI is getting very high and only a very small number of dogs are being born each year, not enough to keep the breed going. So a group of people come along who want to breed these dogs for their orginal work, so they started a new club to promote this goal. the are registering witht he kennel club, doing health testing and only breeding dogs that are useful at the work. People like the idea and are lining up to buy pup. They are selling pups with breeding rights to promote increased numbers of litters/dogs. They are getting nothing but trouble from the 'establishment' in the breed, even untruthful accusations that they are puppy famers and not doing health tests. It seems like they would rather see the breed slip into extinction rather then welcome any breeders or breeding plans that are not about making show dogs.

I was reading the endangered breed list just yesterday, so many breeds have already slip beyond the point of saving them without cross breeding, yet the breed clubs still think the only way to save the breed is to promote them at dogs shows.

I am out for dinner and then ducking for cover.

If you are referring to my post I am not saying that only show people should breed and I am not saying that non showing people should not breed either. I have nothing against the registered non showing people having the occasional litter,and I am definately not calling these non showing breeders scum or BYB or a puppy mill. Those are your words.

I am not talking about you or anything you said or did not say.

I am talking about a statement, an idea, a belief system, that I have heard over and over again. In fact if I had a dollar for every time I heard it, I would be rich!

So not not about you or anyone else has said in this thread. ;>)

[Panxan]

I have been thinking hard about the price of puppies lately. I am hoping to have a litter this year as my bitch is getting older and I really want to keep one or two pups from her to continue showing with.

I am wondering if I will charge more than one price. They are not a hugely popular breed and are difficult to sell so I would happily lower the price for the right home. In saying that if a breeder wanted to buy one I would charge what is the norm for a show puppy. I feel this way partly because I was never given pups at a reduced price for show/breeding and partly because I would like to get enough for the pups to continue paying for health tests.

I don't really worry about what I have spent to get a litter but I would be thinking of testing for the pup/s I would be keeping and any other dogs requiring testing. Also considering looking into expanding my lines etc. When I sell puppies I think of the future not what I have paid in the past. If I thought about what I paid in the past I would probably just cry lol!

[Pretty Miss Emma]

I also very much understand that with a hobby such as this you need to at least cover your costs, and there is certainly nothing wrong with making some profit - because realistically that is probably paying you for your time.

The question I have (and it is a genuine question)... When selling a litter there are usual several pups to find homes for, each of which (usually) has required the same level of care, etc. Is it justifiable to sell dogs that will be main registered for a higher price than those that will be limit registered? And if the answer is yes, what makes it justifiable? I really am curious about this as I have seen it advertised and have been told this by some breeders (and have also had some say that they sell all pups for the same price - but they will be more selective about where a main registered dog is placed), but don't quite understand it completely other than any price difference in the registration process.

[TrinaJ]

The health testing required for some breeds can be very very expensive, if a breeder is bringing in animals or semen from overseas the costs associated with that are again very expensive. It can be difficult to actually land a litter on the ground in some breeds, caesarian sections, surgical implantation of semen, Flying animals around the country for matings there are a lot of expenses that the normal pet owner wouldn't have a clue about.

AT the end of the day Breeding dogs costs money, often really big money, why should Breeders not end up with a little back for their efforts to produce the very best they can, after all the puppy buyers expect the very best service and product and the after care goes on for years. You could not put a price on that.

Hey I'm all for the breeder recouping their money back and some - I just get the feeling that some breeders feel guilty or are apprehensive about saying they do make a profit.

This is life and nothing is for free.

Where is the profit? I pay for my bitch, I pay for all of her food from the day she gets to my house (she gets fed well), I pay for her bedding, her vet bills, her toys, her food bowls, her health tests, x-rays, hip and elbow scoring, ultrasounds, her dog run, her kennel, her registrations each year with council, my VCA membership, then I pay the Stud Dog fee (could be an imported dog or frozem semen BIG COSTS), her Prog Tests, her Ultra Sound, Her X-ray to see how many puppies she is having, the additional food for her, the cost of the whelping box....then if we are lucky NO C-section (can be up to $3,000 for a rottweiler at 3am in the morning), then all the food for the puppies (again they get fed premium foods), registration of each puppy, microchipping, vaccinations, worming, puppy pack (30 pages printed, puppy toys, puppy blanket, puppy collar). Then there is all the time I spend with the puppies, you cant work so you have to take into account lost wages/holidays for the first couple of weeks). By the time you take everything into account, it all adds up. Some people only have a very small litter, some have larger ones, but seriously if you take into account EVERYTHING from when you got your bitch, you dont make anything. Yes we may come out with some money in our hands at the time of the sale, but in the long run, you are lucky to break even.

I come up with my price from the Stud Fee of the dog

[Paptacular!]

The thread in Breeders being referred to was started by myself.

The price I am charging for my puppies is the price I paid as a stud fee. Out of 4 puppies born, I was originally planning to keep one, however I did decide to keep a second pup because I thought he was just too lovely to give away.

My primary motivation for this litter was to produce a dog/s to continue showing and to add to my breeding line later down the track.

[Souff]

The big deal is the culture.

1. Only show people should breed.

2. Show people should only breed a very occsional litter, and wait here are the words that define the belief system...to only get their next show dog and to better the breed.

3. You should never ever ever admit to making any money at all, you only, wait here is comes...because you only breed to get your next show dog and to better the breed.

3. Anyone else breeding with any different reasons is scum, a BYB or a puppy mill. This is because, wait here it comes again..they are NOT breeding to get their next show dog so therefor not bettering the breed.

4. If this is carried out correctly, all other breeders will be pushed out of the breed and the breed will be driven to extinction by low numbers of dogs born, the vast majority of pups sold on on desex contracts and ever increasing inbreeding and high COI of the dogs who belong to show breeders who, wait here it comes....only ever bred a litter to get their next show dog and only to better the breed.

The other part of the culture that you forgot to add is the Limited Register. It is an integral part of your 4th point and, if I am not mistaken, is a purely Australian invention.

It is why there are so many unregistered breeders out there today breeding good quality pups that should be registered dogs. The Limited Register has gutted the number of good quality breeding dogs that could be keeping the future of their breed alive.

Souff

[Souff]

Where is the profit?

Souff's accountant has been asking that question for years!

[Gayle.]

Most people don't expect to make a profit from a hobby. Where is the profit in horse riding, scrapbooking, netball, bushwalking, chess?

[JoeK]

I am not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone....as usual Short Step has provided some very good reasoning. Here's what happened to someone I know, she is a cat breeder though, not a dog breeder, but the scenario could be the same.

She breeds cats primarily to show, and like a dog breeder, the rest get sold to pet homes. She sold a "show quality" kitten to some "friends" of hers. The kitten went on to win many awards, gained many titles including Kitten of the Year and continued it's winning ways into adulthood.

At some stage into the kittens show career, it was found to have a tiny fault........an almost indiscernable fault, so tiny that none of the judges had ever found it. But the owners decided the kitten wasn't "show quality" and sued the breeder.

The breeder was gobsmacked to be served with legal papers and it ended up going to court. The outcome was that the magistrate deemed the breeder should refund the difference in price between a show quality and pet quality kitten. At that time, the breeder didn't have a different price as they all cost the same for her to produce. It was decided by the magistrate the amount would be $100 (I think).

He also advised her that in future, she should charge more for show quality kittens in case they turned out not to be show quality and she could then refund the difference and avoid ending up in court again.

This is a really rare occurence, but this happened within the last 5 years and if it's happened to one breeder, no doubt it could happen to others.

This is common sense that you pay more for the better pup, why you paying show class for a dud and why taking the dud when the same money buying a good one? This is silly concept I am thinking they all the same price becuase they costing the same to raise up from birth? In that case the duds should be the base price of raising up and better one's costing more is fair enough?

Joe