Cesar Milan Kicking Dogs?

[megan_]

I think people and dogs rough play a lot worse with each other then this little tap.

Sure. Do you see the same responses? Do you see them play like this when they are in a highly aroused, anxious state?

Some of those "taps" weren't little either.

I was trying to say im pretty sure it doesnt hurt the dog. His techniques work and save a lot of dogs so i dont see the issue? and i dont see why people find it so *offensive* would you rather see these dogs get euthanised?

Those are hardly the only choices- tap or die! This technique has also seem owners being violently attacked the dog often dies as a result. There are plenty of safe alternatives available. Do you know about "look at that"? Why do you think this technique is better to teach people (and remember that is what a behaviorist is- a teacher).

I like a lot of his stuff- but in this case he has missed the mark

[Aidan3]

I think people and dogs rough play a lot worse with each other then this little tap.

Sure. Do you see the same responses? Do you see them play like this when they are in a highly aroused, anxious state?

Some of those "taps" weren't little either.

I was trying to say im pretty sure it doesnt hurt the dog. His techniques work and save a lot of dogs so i dont see the issue? and i dont see why people find it so *offensive* would you rather see these dogs get euthanised?

This might come as a surprise but there are a lot of dog trainers (myself included) who work with dogs just like this (and worse), saving dogs from euthanasia (on occasion), without ever "tapping" them. So asking me if I would "rather see these dogs get euthanised" is a bit glib.

And how do you know it doesn't hurt the dog? Some of them look pretty pissed off to me. Do you know they've been saved? Tell me what happened to Shadow, or JonBee? You might get a surprise if you digger a little deeper to get below the myth of "great Cesar's ghost".

[Dogsrawesome]

I think people and dogs rough play a lot worse with each other then this little tap.

Sure. Do you see the same responses? Do you see them play like this when they are in a highly aroused, anxious state?

Some of those "taps" weren't little either.

I was trying to say im pretty sure it doesnt hurt the dog. His techniques work and save a lot of dogs so i dont see the issue? and i dont see why people find it so *offensive* would you rather see these dogs get euthanised?

Those are hardly the only choices- tap or die! This technique has also seem owners being violently attacked the dog often dies as a result. There are plenty of safe alternatives available. Do you know about "look at that"? Why do you think this technique is better to teach people (and remember that is what a behaviorist is- a teacher).

I like a lot of his stuff- but in this case he has missed the mark

But i dont think it would work in 30mins or an hour? He said if you have other techniques he says you can use them, he just shows you his way because thats what he knows, if you watch his newer episodes he does use more positive reinforcement. The reason i said would you rather see them be euthanised is because most of the time these are the dogs last chances especially with the more aggressive dogs. So yeah basically its his methods or they put the dog down. Wouldnt it be fairer to blame the owners, if they claimed to use everything you shouldnt blame cesar.

[JoeK]

Most of the dogs Cesar working on the aggression are fear biters with the weak nerve and with the fear biter is a point where he submit to the handler and Cesar he know that. If Cesar he do some of the methods with a dog high in social aggression, the dog he hurt Cesar bad, but the difference is hard nerved dog of the social aggression are clear in the head and trainable and dont need Cesar calling in to fix them.

Cesar when doing his methods always have a slip collar on the dog you see this because if he redirecting to the handler and want to bite him, the only way you can stop the bite is hang him up on the choke out, there is no other way to stop a dog from attacking the handler and not getting bited on. So Cesar he always has the choker on in case the dog want to kill him if going wrong in the method, yes?

If you game enough with the fear biting dog, you can fix this dogs to fear the handler is what Cesar is doing and the dog think he cant win with the Cesar and submits is wahts happening really. Is good or bad method?, well if it saves the dog from the euthanize is ok but if saying is there better way to train the dog, my opinion is yes, there is better way yes.

Joe

[Aidan3]

But i dont think it would work in 30mins or an hour?

You might be surprised what DOES work in 30 minutes or an hour. But I'll tell you what they can't do - shoot a 30 minute episode of a television show in 30 mins or an hour!

Besides, no-one goes to a dog trainer and says "you've got a max of 60 minutes or I'm putting this dog down". Nor do they really "try everything". If they're willing to try more than a couple of trainers, they're willing to keep trying (or putting up with unwanted behaviour). When you hear the things these people have been advised in the past you've got to cringe, there are no shortages of really bad or just plain ineffective trainers out there. Some of them even believe they are amazing.

[megan_]

LAT takes a few minutes to learn. I learnt it from a book. I have a fear aggressive dog and it has worked wonders- I haven't had anincident for a few months. Before that, she would go off her little face every walk and sous sometimes redirect her aggression onto my other dog.

I am not fussed about techniques being positive or negative. I care about them working ( really changing behavior) and being safe for both the dog and the owner. The tapping technique mosses at least one of those(if not all).

[Labs]

Hi guys......

Yesterday I was reading this topic and I PERSONALLY adore cesar milan... however.. I saw a clip of him on youtube actually what was ALLEGEDLY called 'kicking' dogs... and I was wondering if anyone else has seen this video and what they make of it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFCGtatpCwI

??? I don't know what to think....

Bravo Cesar, I am sooo over the trouble makers like the people who put all the footage together.

He is a wonderful trainer and has a wonderful pack leader mentality which most people lack hence their dogs fight, bite people, are out of control etc etc etc

[Dogsrawesome]

Hi guys......

Yesterday I was reading this topic and I PERSONALLY adore cesar milan... however.. I saw a clip of him on youtube actually what was ALLEGEDLY called 'kicking' dogs... and I was wondering if anyone else has seen this video and what they make of it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFCGtatpCwI

??? I don't know what to think....

Bravo Cesar, I am sooo over the trouble makers like the people who put all the footage together.

He is a wonderful trainer and has a wonderful pack leader mentality which most people lack hence their dogs fight, bite people, are out of control etc etc etc

x2

[Shakti]

x3

Cesar states many times throughout his show * Do NOT try these techniques yourself* and yet people still say * I would never do what he does - it is terrible!*

If you feel that way - DON'T Do it!!

He administers the specific type of corrections on the particular dog he is working with in a way that achieves results. None of us have worked with those specific dogs in the way that he does as part of a structured rehabilitation program - so for crying out loud do what works for you and the trainers you are using and leave Cesar's techniques to Cesar if you don't approve!

[Aidan3]

Cesar states many times throughout his show * Do NOT try these techniques yourself* and yet people still say * I would never do what he does - it is terrible!*

If you feel that way - DON'T Do it!!

OP wasn't sure what she thought of what Cesar was doing in the video. I don't think it's unreasonable for a variety of people to put their opinion forward if someone asks these sorts of questions, but the last few posts seem to suggest that "if you don't agree with some of the things Cesar does, you should keep your opinion to yourself and stop being a trouble-maker".

Wouldn't that be a cosy little world?

[Diva]

Wouldn't that be a cosy little world?

Nah. In that world we'd all be believing TV shows and falling for PR, instead of questioning for ourselves like intelligent beings.

Edited April 12, 2011 by Diva

[poodlefan]

He is a wonderful trainer and has a wonderful pack leader mentality which most people lack hence their dogs fight, bite people, are out of control etc etc etc

I think even Cesar wouldn't go that far.

[Fynesse]

What exactly is LAT? From the very basics that I have read, its about a distraction to the trigger. So what do you do if your dog refuses to be distracted from your shaker bottle or whatever else you have and gets into that state??? The thing that I read said to put more distance between the dog and the target. To me that doesnt solve a problem, just avoids it? From what I can see of Cesar, he is basically doing the same thing, distracting the dog, only he leaves the dog in the situation so it learns to deal??

[Aidan3]

What exactly is LAT? From the very basics that I have read, its about a distraction to the trigger.

Nothing could be further from the truth. In LAT (or it's variants) you condition the dog to engage with the trigger without aggression or fear or over-excitement or whatever the problem is. There is no distraction, in fact you are drawing their attention to the stimulus, visually at first.

So what do you do if your dog refuses to be distracted from your shaker bottle or whatever else you have and gets into that state???

This is definitely not LAT and I haven't seen anyone do anything like this and make any serious claims about their ability to train reactive or aggressive dogs.

The thing that I read said to put more distance between the dog and the target. To me that doesnt solve a problem, just avoids it?

You get closer as the dog gets better at dealing with the stimulus, which can happen very quickly. Like any training, you don't start in the deep end. You wouldn't do it with sit or stay or any other behaviour, why would you do it with an aggressive or fearful dog?

[Fynesse]

interesting.............

[Staranais]

At the end of the day, if you have a seriously aggressive dog, you're damn lucky if there's a trainer within your local area who can help you.

In my experience, most trainers won't be able to resolve a severe aggression case, whether or not they admit it, and some will refuse to take the case on. So, if you have someone local who is both able and willing to help your dog, then you're lucky, no matter which methods they choose to use.

[JoeK]

What exactly is LAT? From the very basics that I have read, its about a distraction to the trigger.

Nothing could be further from the truth. In LAT (or it's variants) you condition the dog to engage with the trigger without aggression or fear or over-excitement or whatever the problem is. There is no distraction, in fact you are drawing their attention to the stimulus, visually at first.

So what do you do if your dog refuses to be distracted from your shaker bottle or whatever else you have and gets into that state???

This is definitely not LAT and I haven't seen anyone do anything like this and make any serious claims about their ability to train reactive or aggressive dogs.

The thing that I read said to put more distance between the dog and the target. To me that doesnt solve a problem, just avoids it?

You get closer as the dog gets better at dealing with the stimulus, which can happen very quickly. Like any training, you don't start in the deep end. You wouldn't do it with sit or stay or any other behaviour, why would you do it with an aggressive or fearful dog?

The most difficult dealing with the aggession in the dog is know what is aggression is coming from because barking and the teeth may look the same but can come from different triggering in the mind of the dog. In the working dog is sharpness and civil aggression can be best tackle him head on and teach him whos boss becuause the sharp civil dog is looking to leadership becuase he think he have to do the job is up to him. Who you handling this dog is saying NO, I tell you went to go aggressive not you so pull your head in is what we doing here. But this wont work with fear and flight aggression becuase the dog too easily getting spooked and you having to slow like Aidan2 say, his right on the spooky aggressive dog you don't throw into the deepest end first is wrong.

Then you can have the social aggression in the dog and what this one is, the dog is confident dog and domimant dog, he get aggressive and want to bite people becuase he can. He think who are you on my street, I am the boss here, I owning the street and if you not piss off, I bite you see?. This is the social aggression and dominance and this type on the dog are the ones who often handler aggression also. But in the social aggression, this dogs in not fear based so you can easily distract the dog for better behavior, the social aggression is the easy aggression to fixing, but not many dogs you finding on the pet marketing having this trait is unusual. Pit Bull is common on social aggression some German Shepherd Dogs and the Rottweiller can have this trait, is very good trait for working dog for experienced handler but very danger with novice person owning the dogs like this, but trait is easily fixed for good of the dog if you know is done no worries. Fear and the flight aggression is the hardest to fix and my opinion is you can fix but never trust fear base nerve.

Joe

[Leelaa17]

Do you know what really, really annoys me? dog owners who wont admit their emotions have gotten the better of them at some point adn they have actually physically disciplined a dog. I think it would be but e very saintly blessed few who haven't bopped their dog on the nose for nipping, or even as simple as imposing yourself in their space. Sorry but i do't believe anyone is that perfect.

I dont condone it, but i dont believe there is not a single person out there that hasn't made an aggressive gesture or physical contact or even shouted at their dog.

I haven't seen the clip (my internet doesnt allow me videos) but, im just being realistic. Everyone is so quick on this forum to get on their podium and preach! I'll openly admit i'm human and i have kicked a dog. I've also smacked them on the nose. and my dogs are generally well behaved dogs.

I will say now, that the dog that got booted (several times for inappropriate dangerous behaviour) doesn't misbehave anymore. I didn't like doing it, at all, call me heavy handed, whatever you like. I'm just saying somemtimes situations, stronger discipline is needed adn id rather cop a bite to my foot than my hand or face. When i booted him he immediately paid attention TO ME - so in that regard it was effective because i wanted to distract him from the situation he was in.

Guess its just horses for courses and who's realistic about admitting how they have disciplined their pooches

I will admit that I bop my dogs on the nose if they do something wrong - I don't do it much anymore because I just use my stern voice and they know they're in trouble but I used to tap em on the nose if they were being REALLY naughty. I think everyone is human

can I also just NOTE that I p0ut the heading of this topic as 'Cesar Milan Kicking Dogs' because thats what the video clip was called - not because I thought he was actually kicking them - I know what kicking a dog looks like and that isnt what cesar has been doing.

[corvus]

I know what kicking a dog looks like and that isnt what cesar has been doing.

Wouldn't the people who say he is kicking dogs also believe they know what kicking a dog looks like and that is exactly what Cesar has been doing? How can you say you are right and they are wrong? Even if he 'tapped' you the exact same way you couldn't say "I felt no pain therefore the dog feels no pain and Cesar is not kicking dogs." because you can't say that what you feel is the same as what a dog would feel. If he tapped you on the shins I am betting it would feel more like a kick than if he tapped you on the calf, for example. You may think you know what kicking a dog LOOKS like, but more importantly, do you know what kicking a dog FEELS like?

[megan_]

I'm no behaviourist, but when LAT is done correctly:

i) you condition the dog that seeing the bad thing that they fear and staying calm leads to good things, Ie they become conditioned to remain calm. Sure, it takes repetition, but conditioning requires that.

ii) It gives the dog an alternate behaviour (focusing on the owner and not the thing they fear). This is far more effective than just telling the dog what not to do.

iii) You significantly reduce (even nullify) the chances of redirected aggression because you keep the dog below the threshold. This is something that people advocating the "tap" method seem to overlook? Do they think it doesn't exist? Having seen my girl see a strange man in the distance, turn and launch a full-on attack on my other dog - who was doing nothing - I can assure you it is very real. I hope the trainers who advocate this method have very good public liability insurance. That said, I haven't seen any DOL trainers on here advocating thsi method, which should tell us something....

It is hard to describe unless you see it - and see it done properly. The handlers timing has to be right to keep the dog below the threshold. As Aidan's second instance explained, it is not about distracting the dog at all.

I can speak from personal experience regarding this method because it has helped my fear aggressive dog immensely. She doesn't like people who look or act differently.

There was one man who dressed in traditional muslim clothing that she particularly hated. We can now walk past him, she remains calm and looks at me. I don't need to say "Look at that!" with her anymore (in this particular instance). This is the desired end result - not the owner having to constantly distract the dog everytime the scary thing approaches.

Edited April 14, 2011 by megan_