Cesar Milan Kicking Dogs?

[corvus]

Here's a video from Leslie McDevitt that says a bit about LAT. If you can keep up with the scrolling! http://www.youtube.com/user/LeslieMcDevitt#p/u/6/POprQmrJ2Bc

[Leelaa17]

I know what kicking a dog looks like and that isnt what cesar has been doing.

Wouldn't the people who say he is kicking dogs also believe they know what kicking a dog looks like and that is exactly what Cesar has been doing? How can you say you are right and they are wrong? Even if he 'tapped' you the exact same way you couldn't say "I felt no pain therefore the dog feels no pain and Cesar is not kicking dogs." because you can't say that what you feel is the same as what a dog would feel. If he tapped you on the shins I am betting it would feel more like a kick than if he tapped you on the calf, for example. You may think you know what kicking a dog LOOKS like, but more importantly, do you know what kicking a dog FEELS like?

good point. no i dont know what kicking a dog feels like - I know when I have been kicked in the shins etc that it has hurt... a lot!

[m-j]

Let's put it in terms that are closer to what is happening so the analogy is a bit clearer.

Let's say you've been mugged and you are really nervous about certain situations, like when a gang of thugs are hanging out in a park. You see a therapist who has a radical approach to dealing with anxieties. It's not really based in science, but your friend saw him on TV and thought he was awesome and had really nice teeth so he books you an appointment (without your permission, but you agree anyway).

The therapist takes you to a park, you don't really trust him but your friend seems to watch a lot of TV and reckons he's the best one on the telly so you go along with it. You see a gang of thugs hanging out in the park and you start to panic. The therapist tells you to go a bit closer, but it's really freaking you out and you're starting to have a full-on panic attack.

Then, out of nowhere, he "taps" you in the groin with his foot.

How do you respond?

Oh ok I'll come with you as you have just distracted me and it has made me realise my fear is irrational

[raineth]

do you know mj, that even with humans, knowing that a fear is irrational doesn't make it go away?

I would much rather change what is going on in the brain through classical conditioning than just suppressing a behaviour.

[jacqui835]

Cesar spends a lot of time emphasising how gentle the 'touch' needs to be. I remember one episode where he was working with a huge man who was doing it too hard and so not getting results, and to demonstrate, Cesar shoved the guy hard and was like, how did that make you feel? The guy actually looked aggressive for a second or two, but Cesar quickly continued, "yeah exactly" and then tapped him lightly instead. The guy turned over his shoulder to look at Cesar and Cesar was like, "now you just want to know what I want."

I don't know why people keep saying, "oh imagine if someone did that to you..." How is that even relevant? Are you a dog? Do you think your dog has the same response to things as humans do? The whole reason Cesar claims he gets results with this approach - by distracting the dog that is, is because he claims dogs live in the 'now'. The same can not be said for humans.

[raineth]

Cesar spends a lot of time emphasising how gentle the 'touch' needs to be. I remember one episode where he was working with a huge man who was doing it too hard and so not getting results, and to demonstrate, Cesar shoved the guy hard and was like, how did that make you feel? The guy actually looked aggressive for a second or two, but Cesar quickly continued, "yeah exactly" and then tapped him lightly instead. The guy turned over his shoulder to look at Cesar and Cesar was like, "now you just want to know what I want."

I don't know why people keep saying, "oh imagine if someone did that to you..." How is that even relevant? Are you a dog? Do you think your dog has the same response to things as humans do? The whole reason Cesar claims he gets results with this approach - by distracting the dog that is, is because he claims dogs live in the 'now'. The same can not be said for humans.

if its not relevant then why did you give the example Cesar shoving the guy hard to as a way to demonstrate what its like for a dog?

[corvus]

The whole reason Cesar claims he gets results with this approach - by distracting the dog that is, is because he claims dogs live in the 'now'. The same can not be said for humans.

There are certainly times when humans live in the 'now'. Like when they are focused on something else and something distracts them. My OH has a powerful startle response. Any loud noise will make him orient to the sound while simultaneously ducking. He sure is living in the 'now' when he does that. I have a weaker startle response and a loud noise doesn't make me react, but if I'm 100% focused on one task I am doing and someone breaks my concentration, it doesn't matter how 'gently' they do it, my response tends to be aggressive. I'm like "What! I'm busy!" I am entirely living in the 'now' when I make that response, or else I would be more understanding. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume different dogs display similar variation in the way they respond to a physical distraction. I often nudge Kivi to remind him I exist and he seems entirely comfortable with that. Erik I don't touch. If I can't get his attention with sound then I won't get it with any touch I'm prepared to do. He is quite touch sensitive and he can live in the 'now' all he likes, but it won't make him less likely to associate an aversive physical stimulus with other stimuli he is paying a lot of suspicious attention to at the time. A 'tap' is all fine and dandy if it's a neutral stimulus and serves only to break focus. But IMO you're walking on thin ice if you are relying on a stimulus that could easily have an aversive edge to it. It doesn't have to hurt to be aversive. And a dog living in the 'now' is as susceptible to unwanted associations with aversives as a human, probably more so as they can't rationalise what happened.

[Aidan3]

Cesar spends a lot of time emphasising how gentle the 'touch' needs to be. I remember one episode where he was working with a huge man who was doing it too hard and so not getting results, and to demonstrate, Cesar shoved the guy hard and was like, how did that make you feel? The guy actually looked aggressive for a second or two, but Cesar quickly continued, "yeah exactly" and then tapped him lightly instead. The guy turned over his shoulder to look at Cesar and Cesar was like, "now you just want to know what I want."

I don't know why people keep saying, "oh imagine if someone did that to you..." How is that even relevant? Are you a dog? Do you think your dog has the same response to things as humans do? The whole reason Cesar claims he gets results with this approach - by distracting the dog that is, is because he claims dogs live in the 'now'. The same can not be said for humans.

Apparently Cesar himself seems to think it's relevant!

Despite this, if you watch the video he frequently elicits the dog "actually looked aggressive for a second or two" response. Maybe he has figured it out and no longer does it that way. I hope so.

[JoeK]

Most of this dogs behaving poor on the leash on the Cesar video are intially choked out and is reason why he use his slip leash. What you see with the sshhh and the kick and the dog submits is precursing of another choke out but we not see the choke out too much on the video, you see on the video what the Cesar want us to see and making him looking good training, yes?

You do the sshhh and light kick on the dog when hes zoning in, is does nothing pfffff, choke him out a few times after the sshhh and the light kick and he knows whats coming next and responds in submission. Is similar to the William Keohler?. What dog drop is ears and back away on the ssshhh is bull?

Not to saying that the Cesar doesnt fix the dog because intimidation techniqing does fix the dog, but is not magical mind power his doing its old school training in the revamping is looking better, nothing is special rocket sceincing in the Cesar methods. I give him a couple of Shepherd Dogs he alpha roll on them they kill him before he get them to the floor is fact in dogs of high in fighting drive alpha roll is no good.

Joe

[jacqui835]

Most of this dogs behaving poor on the leash on the Cesar video are intially choked out and is reason why he use his slip leash. What you see with the sshhh and the kick and the dog submits is precursing of another choke out but we not see the choke out too much on the video, you see on the video what the Cesar want us to see and making him looking good training, yes?

You do the sshhh and light kick on the dog when hes zoning in, is does nothing pfffff, choke him out a few times after the sshhh and the light kick and he knows whats coming next and responds in submission. Is similar to the William Keohler?. What dog drop is ears and back away on the ssshhh is bull?

Not to saying that the Cesar doesnt fix the dog because intimidation techniqing does fix the dog, but is not magical mind power his doing its old school training in the revamping is looking better, nothing is special rocket sceincing in the Cesar methods. I give him a couple of Shepherd Dogs he alpha roll on them they kill him before he get them to the floor is fact in dogs of high in fighting drive alpha roll is no good.

Joe

Cesar also makes the comment that he's often not dealing with aggressive dogs, just fearful ones. One episode that comes to mind is the one with the 2 great danes that the owners deemed aggressive - but a chicken wire fence kept them back. Cesar was like, if they were actaully aggressive, they'd leap over/break through, they're just scared because they have no leader and they are struggling with all the responsibility they feel (so trying to keep everyone away).

End of episode - dog has full trust in him and lies on its back in the pool with its owner holding him, because owner now understands his dog doesn't want to have to worry about everything, so he is setting the boundaries for him and dog can relax.

I said this in the other thread. I'm a Cesar supporter because I don't think anyone devotes more time, money, energy etc to the well-being of dogs all over the world than what Cesar does. I think he gets results, and through his books, I have a male entire doberman who's a wonderful and appreciable dog. But I hate hate hate that so many people think they safely and/or effectively implement Cesar's methods after watching a couple of episodes. I wish he put more emphasis on the whole, I'm a professional, doing this wrong can have terrible consequences and if you're not a professional you will probably do this wrong etc etc.

[m-j]

do you know mj, that even with humans, knowing that a fear is irrational doesn't make it go away?

I would much rather change what is going on in the brain through classical conditioning than just suppressing a behaviour.

Sorry raineth it was said with toungue in cheek I should have mentioned that. I think only someone threatened with something more scarey than the original fear would actually follow the therapist toward the source of the fear, even if the threat was called a mild distraction by someone else not on the receiving end.

The kick CM gives I think is as Joe says a conditioned reinforcer or it actually does hurt or as Corvus says the dog is living in the now (if I was fearful of something I wouldn't want to take my eyes off it either i.e. a rearing head flattened snake and if someone tried to distract me away from it I would get cranky), whatever, certainly not what I would recommend doing or do myself either.

[JoeK]

Most of this dogs behaving poor on the leash on the Cesar video are intially choked out and is reason why he use his slip leash. What you see with the sshhh and the kick and the dog submits is precursing of another choke out but we not see the choke out too much on the video, you see on the video what the Cesar want us to see and making him looking good training, yes?

You do the sshhh and light kick on the dog when hes zoning in, is does nothing pfffff, choke him out a few times after the sshhh and the light kick and he knows whats coming next and responds in submission. Is similar to the William Keohler?. What dog drop is ears and back away on the ssshhh is bull?

Not to saying that the Cesar doesnt fix the dog because intimidation techniqing does fix the dog, but is not magical mind power his doing its old school training in the revamping is looking better, nothing is special rocket sceincing in the Cesar methods. I give him a couple of Shepherd Dogs he alpha roll on them they kill him before he get them to the floor is fact in dogs of high in fighting drive alpha roll is no good.

Joe

Cesar also makes the comment that he's often not dealing with aggressive dogs, just fearful ones. One episode that comes to mind is the one with the 2 great danes that the owners deemed aggressive - but a chicken wire fence kept them back. Cesar was like, if they were actaully aggressive, they'd leap over/break through, they're just scared because they have no leader and they are struggling with all the responsibility they feel (so trying to keep everyone away).

End of episode - dog has full trust in him and lies on its back in the pool with its owner holding him, because owner now understands his dog doesn't want to have to worry about everything, so he is setting the boundaries for him and dog can relax.

I said this in the other thread. I'm a Cesar supporter because I don't think anyone devotes more time, money, energy etc to the well-being of dogs all over the world than what Cesar does. I think he gets results, and through his books, I have a male entire doberman who's a wonderful and appreciable dog. But I hate hate hate that so many people think they safely and/or effectively implement Cesar's methods after watching a couple of episodes. I wish he put more emphasis on the whole, I'm a professional, doing this wrong can have terrible consequences and if you're not a professional you will probably do this wrong etc etc.

Yes, this is correct that the Cesar would deal with fear aggression more than the social active aggression, but first you have to stop the behavior to beginning leadership of the dog. Is true what he says and is similar in the principals of Keohler except Cesar showing the result from the calm where the Koehler projecting on the dog he stop from fear of correcting, but Cesar still do the correction the same as Koehler on beginning of approach but is not so obvious. What I say if you watching closely the Cesar, he tackle the problem head on and walking the dog into discomforting zone but he also choking out the dog to remove the response he dont wanting. This is not magical power from the Cesar whispering on the dog, is power from the slip leash removing drive from the dog is how it works on the beginning of is training.

Joe

[Aidan3]

This is not magical power from the Cesar whispering on the dog

Wait, wait, wait - so you're saying Cesar doesn't have magical powers? What's next - clickers don't have magical powers?

Is nothing sacred any more?!?

[Diva]

This is not magical power from the Cesar whispering on the dog

Wait, wait, wait - so you're saying Cesar doesn't have magical powers? What's next - clickers don't have magical powers?

Is nothing sacred any more?!?

:D

[corvus]

I tried whispering on my dog, once. He stuck his tongue in my mouth. I never did that again.

[raineth]

do you know mj, that even with humans, knowing that a fear is irrational doesn't make it go away?

I would much rather change what is going on in the brain through classical conditioning than just suppressing a behaviour.

Sorry raineth it was said with toungue in cheek I should have mentioned that. I think only someone threatened with something more scarey than the original fear would actually follow the therapist toward the source of the fear, even if the threat was called a mild distraction by someone else not on the receiving end.

The kick CM gives I think is as Joe says a conditioned reinforcer or it actually does hurt or as Corvus says the dog is living in the now (if I was fearful of something I wouldn't want to take my eyes off it either i.e. a rearing head flattened snake and if someone tried to distract me away from it I would get cranky), whatever, certainly not what I would recommend doing or do myself either.

ooops :D sorry!

can be hard to interpret on the intawebz sometimes!

[JoeK]

This is not magical power from the Cesar whispering on the dog

Wait, wait, wait - so you're saying Cesar doesn't have magical powers? What's next - clickers don't have magical powers?

Is nothing sacred any more?!?

If having the arms and legs and head on top like the Cesar, maybe we all have magical powers deep in our souls, yes? Cesar he have good understanding on the dog no worries, but much bull is projected from the Cesar also. I see one of is video taking the leadership and calming control on the Boxer Dog, he say to the owner, look how marvell I am doing this and the owner he looking at Cesar as is hero ok. What I see is Cesar choking the dog with his slip leash and the dog hes much better in the behave when he cant breath properly of couse?. But all the owner see is the dog not reacting as he did and he is calmer with Cesar leading the ship, of course hes calmer when he cant breath but the owner dont know the truth in the matter you see? He think Cesar bring his own leash to save wearing out his becuase hes a good bloke, but my point is Cesar dont using the owner leash because is leash cant have the choke control to bring the calm in the dog is the truth on this Boxer Dog I seeing

Joe

[kiesha09]

Joe

I said this in the other thread. I'm a Cesar supporter because I don't think anyone devotes more time, money, energy etc to the well-being of dogs all over the world than what Cesar does. I think he gets results, and through his books, I have a male entire doberman who's a wonderful and appreciable dog. But I hate hate hate that so many people think they safely and/or effectively implement Cesar's methods after watching a couple of episodes. I wish he put more emphasis on the whole, I'm a professional, doing this wrong can have terrible consequences and if you're not a professional you will probably do this wrong etc etc.

I think he does it for the money not just the well being of dogs!! Secondly there are many other trainers who invest far more to the well-being of dogs than he does.

[JoeK]

kiesha09' date='15th Apr 2011 - 12:45 PM' post='5257417']

I said this in the other thread. I'm a Cesar supporter because I don't think anyone devotes more time, money, energy etc to the well-being of dogs all over the world than what Cesar does. I think he gets results, and through his books, I have a male entire doberman who's a wonderful and appreciable dog. But I hate hate hate that so many people think they safely and/or effectively implement Cesar's methods after watching a couple of episodes. I wish he put more emphasis on the whole, I'm a professional, doing this wrong can have terrible consequences and if you're not a professional you will probably do this wrong etc etc.

I think he does it for the money not just the well being of dogs!! Secondly there are many other trainers who invest far more to the well-being of dogs than he does.

I think Cesar is not short on the money and he does well in the business of training dogs and smarter on the business than the trainers whos better than him at training the dogs. Taking drive from the dog is not hard in the training, ok for the pet owner is hard I understand this and Cesar helping on the pet, but is much harder keeping the drive up on the dog and keeping control on the dogs drive which the Cesar doesnt do this and if someone hire him to do this I think he get splinters scratching his head to work out how he do this?

Joe

[corvus]

Cesar he have good understanding on the dog no worries, but much bull is projected from the Cesar also.

I am so appropriating that. :D