Cesar Milan Kicking Dogs?

[amy_h]

I was just waiting for it to happen seems to always be that way on DOL lol, what starts as a conversation about a tele show turns into a debate about training methods, snowball, snowball...

(that's not a bad thing - everyone has their own opinions! good that people are passionate about their beliefs, and yes no one has yet. expcet me this time)

[Erny]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFCGtatpCwI

??? I don't know what to think....

There is no author to that YouTube?

Edited April 12, 2011 by Erny

[kiesha09]

you know what really annoys me? When someone implies that everyone is being sanctimonious and no one is :-).

No one is saying the tap is abuse. Plenty of people say it isn't a very effective way of dealing with aggression.

Totally agree!

And Amy_h I can quite honestly say that I have never, and I mean never hit my dog - not on their butt, back and no definately not on their nose!

Yes I blocked their space and raised my voice at them (because they were in danger) but never hit my dogs. I just do not feel it is necessary at all.

[jacqui835]

Is he kicking the dog? No

Do I believe this is an effective way to deal with DA? No. It isn't making the dog any less fearful of what it is seeing. It isn't teaching the dog alternative behaviour (ie what they should do instead of react).

A far less dramatic, but far more effective and easy to teach method would be the "look at that". But then you can't look tough doing it!

ETA: In fact, if you have a sensitive dog, they could become conditioned: "I see another dog/person and a bad thing happens to me. Therefore dogs/people are bad". Dangerous formula.

A bad thing is not happening to the dog. They fixate on a person/other dog, ready to go through their typical response of aggression. Words and sounds are not enough because the dog has formed a habit and is in a fight zone. He touches the dog in a non-painful way to distract them, not to hurt them. Result is the dog remembers the person is there, and the person is then able to communicate with the dog again and prevent the undesirable action. Previous chain of events is broken, dog can learn a new response.

Just my opinion of course, but I don't think anyone can watch that video and say the dogs look like they're being injured or attacked?

[Aidan3]

Do you know what really, really annoys me? dog owners who wont admit their emotions have gotten the better of them at some point adn they have actually physically disciplined a dog. I think it would be but e very saintly blessed few who haven't bopped their dog on the nose for nipping, or even as simple as imposing yourself in their space. Sorry but i do't believe anyone is that perfect.

I dont condone it, but i dont believe there is not a single person out there that hasn't made an aggressive gesture or physical contact or even shouted at their dog.

It's been many years since I've done it as a training method. I think there is a difference.

[Aidan3]

Just my opinion of course, but I don't think anyone can watch that video and say the dogs look like they're being injured or attacked?

Some of them do.

[Erny]

Just my opinion of course, but I don't think anyone can watch that video and say the dogs look like they're being injured or attacked?

Some of them do.

You think "injured" Aidan?

[Cosmolo]

I think the potential for injury is high. And injury is not always physical IMO.

Do the dogs think they are being attacked? Yes, some of them do. There is no reality, only perception. And the dogs perception is important to me as well as all the other factors that come into play.

[Aidan3]

Just my opinion of course, but I don't think anyone can watch that video and say the dogs look like they're being injured or attacked?

Some of them do.

You think "injured" Aidan?

Some of them look like they are being attacked. Whether they believe they will be injured or not I don't know, can't read their minds, only their bodies.

[Aidan3]

I think the potential for injury is high. And injury is not always physical IMO.

Do the dogs think they are being attacked? Yes, some of them do. There is no reality, only perception. And the dogs perception is important to me as well as all the other factors that come into play.

If someone did that to me, I would call it an attack even if it were very gentle. I think they are showing great restraint I would not respond with verbal aggression or by assuming a defensive position. Dogs carry knives in their mouths, they are very good at restraint and physical conflict avoidance.

To use a fancy word, we assess our interactions with dogs with an anthrocentric view - a human perspective. How we see it and how the dog sees it are completely separate things. We "construct" ideas about dogs and believe them to be true, sometimes regardless of the evidence.

[corvus]

ETA: In fact, if you have a sensitive dog, they could become conditioned: "I see another dog/person and a bad thing happens to me. Therefore dogs/people are bad". Dangerous formula.

A bad thing is not happening to the dog. They fixate on a person/other dog, ready to go through their typical response of aggression. Words and sounds are not enough because the dog has formed a habit and is in a fight zone. He touches the dog in a non-painful way to distract them, not to hurt them. Result is the dog remembers the person is there, and the person is then able to communicate with the dog again and prevent the undesirable action. Previous chain of events is broken, dog can learn a new respons

I've seen just that kind of thing make an aggressive response to a stimulus considerably worse. Dog is in fight zone fixated on trigger, aversive applied, dog redoubles efforts to kill the trigger from then on. It was very scary, and resulted in a dog I grew up with being PTS because she eventually became too dangerous for my family to manage. The aversive was not painful. All it had to be was startling. She wasn't even a particularly sensitive or soft dog.

[Alyosha]

To me it's the physical equivalent of shouting "OI!" at two humans who are embroiled in a heated argument, or like a tap on the shoulder from behind in the same situation, it breaks an intense moment of concentration.

[aussielover]

To me it's the physical equivalent of shouting "OI!" at two humans who are embroiled in a heated argument, or like a tap on the shoulder from behind in the same situation, it breaks an intense moment of concentration.

I agree with you but people are going to react differently, some will take a step back and stop but some will just become more enraged and lash out.

You can see with some of the dogs, the "tap" has the desired response, but in others it provokes the dog into attacking him.

What worries me is that he doesn't seem to know when it is going to elicit a negative response (like attacking him) or he doesn't care, or he purposely wants the dog to have a go at him.

[Aidan3]

To me it's the physical equivalent of shouting "OI!" at two humans who are embroiled in a heated argument, or like a tap on the shoulder from behind in the same situation, it breaks an intense moment of concentration.

I agree with you but people are going to react differently, some will take a step back and stop but some will just become more enraged and lash out.

You can see with some of the dogs, the "tap" has the desired response, but in others it provokes the dog into attacking him.

What worries me is that he doesn't seem to know when it is going to elicit a negative response (like attacking him) or he doesn't care, or he purposely wants the dog to have a go at him.

Exactly. It doesn't matter if "we" think it's the equivalent of shouting "Oi!" if the dog doesn't agree.

If we really want a dog's attention or to break a fixation, taking the leash and walking somewhere else achieves that better than anything.

[Dogsrawesome]

I think people and dogs rough play a lot worse with each other then this little tap.

[Aidan3]

I think people and dogs rough play a lot worse with each other then this little tap.

Sure. Do you see the same responses? Do you see them play like this when they are in a highly aroused, anxious state?

Some of those "taps" weren't little either.

[jacqui835]

I think the potential for injury is high. And injury is not always physical IMO.

Do the dogs think they are being attacked? Yes, some of them do. There is no reality, only perception. And the dogs perception is important to me as well as all the other factors that come into play.

If someone did that to me, I would call it an attack even if it were very gentle. I think they are showing great restraint I would not respond with verbal aggression or by assuming a defensive position. Dogs carry knives in their mouths, they are very good at restraint and physical conflict avoidance.

To use a fancy word, we assess our interactions with dogs with an anthrocentric view - a human perspective. How we see it and how the dog sees it are completely separate things. We "construct" ideas about dogs and believe them to be true, sometimes regardless of the evidence.

Umm... if you were threatening to attack someone or an animal, I'm pretty sure people would do more than apply a light tap to distract you.

[megan_]

T seems odd to me that his technique relies on taking a dog into the "red" zone and *then*trying to deal with it. It is very hard to deal with a dog in this state nd you run the very real risk of redirected aggression. You see this in some of his shows and ive seen it irl - scary stuff. Also, the dog is repeatedly getting into this state- it is being conditioned.

A far more effective approach is to keep the dog below the threshold - "look at that" is a good example of this technique. There is no risk of redirected aggression, the dog build a positive association with the trigger and learns a safe alternAte behaviour (focusing on the owner).

Why anyone would advocate the tap over LAT is beyond me.

[Aidan3]

I think the potential for injury is high. And injury is not always physical IMO.

Do the dogs think they are being attacked? Yes, some of them do. There is no reality, only perception. And the dogs perception is important to me as well as all the other factors that come into play.

If someone did that to me, I would call it an attack even if it were very gentle. I think they are showing great restraint I would not respond with verbal aggression or by assuming a defensive position. Dogs carry knives in their mouths, they are very good at restraint and physical conflict avoidance.

To use a fancy word, we assess our interactions with dogs with an anthrocentric view - a human perspective. How we see it and how the dog sees it are completely separate things. We "construct" ideas about dogs and believe them to be true, sometimes regardless of the evidence.

Umm... if you were threatening to attack someone or an animal, I'm pretty sure people would do more than apply a light tap to distract you.

Let's put it in terms that are closer to what is happening so the analogy is a bit clearer.

Let's say you've been mugged and you are really nervous about certain situations, like when a gang of thugs are hanging out in a park. You see a therapist who has a radical approach to dealing with anxieties. It's not really based in science, but your friend saw him on TV and thought he was awesome and had really nice teeth so he books you an appointment (without your permission, but you agree anyway).

The therapist takes you to a park, you don't really trust him but your friend seems to watch a lot of TV and reckons he's the best one on the telly so you go along with it. You see a gang of thugs hanging out in the park and you start to panic. The therapist tells you to go a bit closer, but it's really freaking you out and you're starting to have a full-on panic attack.

Then, out of nowhere, he "taps" you in the groin with his foot.

How do you respond?

[Dogsrawesome]

I think people and dogs rough play a lot worse with each other then this little tap.

Sure. Do you see the same responses? Do you see them play like this when they are in a highly aroused, anxious state?

Some of those "taps" weren't little either.

I was trying to say im pretty sure it doesnt hurt the dog. His techniques work and save a lot of dogs so i dont see the issue? and i dont see why people find it so *offensive* would you rather see these dogs get euthanised?