Diva Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 (edited) Borzoi are very low on the list, and I've found that they can look quite thick until THEY really want something, then they can problem solve quite smartly. As in the one that learnt to turn my old air con on, and my current one that taught herself how to open the fridge so she could help herself to the egg carton. I can teach them most simple exercises in a handful of reps, but working for people is not their default mode, to get good reliable work on cue for exercises that don't seem to have an inherently meaningful context to them I either need to make compliance exciting, as in drive training, or rely on their general amiability and relationship with me - pack drive I guess. But that is hardly suprising to me in a breed that had to make its most challenging decisions well away from human direction, in the heat of the chase. Edited to add: just saw your post ssm. You are dead right, there is great intra-breed variability. And the quickest problem solver of my current cohort, probably the most intelligent by most measures, is also the most challenging to live with as a pet (eg the fridge example). Edited April 12, 2011 by Diva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiekaye Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Beagles are listed around number 70 on these lists. Someone forgot to tell Daisy she's supposed to be dumb. Maybe if she was shed stop thinking up new ways to steal stuff off the kitchen shelf The last thing I thought of my Beagle was that he was dumb, I would say too clever for his own good at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rysup Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 I think that much like humans, dog intelligence is an individual thing rather than a breed thing. I think it's silly to be trying to categorise them on "intelligence" when we really have no idea how "intelligent" they are. I know my Kees are very smart, but they wont ever make the list because they are not to be trained like a BC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 (edited) But that is hardly suprising to me in a breed that had to make its most challenging decisions well away from human direction, in the heat of the chase. This comment about borzois is spot on, IMO, & can generalise. Like, I've thought that tibbies' self-referencing & being able to assess context & make decisions from that....relates to surviving alongside people in one of the harshest environments on earth. Tibet. I read the autobiography of the Dalai Lama where he explained how the Tibetan horses behave differently because of the need to survive in the extreme terrain. Like, the horses will first pick up rock movements, before their riders, & will instantly take evasive action. It's accepted that the horses will make decisions that don't depend on human direction. There seems to be a streak of self-referencing that runs thro' the tibetan dog breeds as well. Edited April 12, 2011 by mita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koalathebear Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 (edited) The thing is that we're all still talking about our own dogs and whether our own dogs are intelligent or not but that is quite specific to individual dogs rather than across the breed. What about on a more generalised basis discussing certain behaviours/traits - putting aside whether our own dogs are smart or not For instance, 'Betsy' the German Border Collie could understand 200 words - do we think that the ability to recognise many words equals intelligence? One of the characteristics of a Kelpie is that it can take instructions from a great distance (is that intelligence or just a good sensory system?) and that it displays independent thinking i.e. it will listen to its handler but it will override those instructions if it thinks it knows better - is that intelligence or naughtiness and recalcitrance? Is a sense of independence and autonomy intelligence or just instinct? I was watching "Extraordinary Dogs" that spoke about how the guardian instinct in the Maremma Sheepdog wasn't trained by humans but passed from mother to pup - when danger approached, the Maremma Sheepdogs would automatically form themselves into a guarding pattern - two at the gate, the rest would herd the flock to the back into safety and the sheepdogs would always place themselves between the flock and impending harm. Is that intelligence or pure instinct passed down over generations? What about escape artist dogs - the ones that manage to get out of any yard no matter what the fencing or barriers that are put in place - is that dog intelligent because it's a problem solver or is it the dog that can be taught to stay in the yard that is more intelligent? Same thing with destructive snoopy dogs - are the dogs that destroy and snoop more intelligent because they're curious and energetic or are the dogs that can be taught to 'leave things alone' more intelligent? What about dogs that can learn by imitation - is that intelligence? Or the ability to generalise - is that intelligence? I have no answers, I'm just curious. Edited April 12, 2011 by koalathebear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 (edited) What about dogs that can learn by imitation - is that intelligence? Or the ability to generalise - is that intelligence? I have no answers, I'm just curious. 'Intelligence' is a highly debated notion in human psychology as well. Intelligence is often described as 'adaptable behaviour', which implies being able to shape thinking & action in order to carry out different tasks. Measuring 'intelligence' in humans, has also generated much debate. So I guess it's bound to generate a lot of debate with dogs, too. There was an article in the New Scientist comparing how babies & toddlers learn to think & act, with how animals might do. If I remember correctly, dogs came out as the animal whose learning was like some of the earliest level learning of babies/toddlers. 'Imitation' was referred to. I'll see if I can find it. It's usually possible to read the articles on the NS website. New Scientist isn't a deep scientific journal, it's more a science magazine. But it's readable. Edited April 12, 2011 by mita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diva Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 (edited) I think that is the point most people are making Koala - most of us aren't aware of a standard accepted measure of canine intelligence, maybe it exists in the research world but if so I haven't stumbled across it. In many of the examples people have mentioned, the level of motivation for the dog to learn a behaviour and it's inherited behavioural preferences seem to me to a key - I think a good canine Houdini is probably intelligent given the problem solving it exhibits, but not necessarily more intelligent than the dog who stays in the yard, because the stay-at-home may just not be motivated to try and get out. Or maybe the Houdini just has higher levels of persistence and optimism to keep trying. I watched a TV segment the other day - maybe it was Catalyst? - which compared domestic dogs' problem solving to access food to a Dingo's. The Dingo won the day easily, but the dogs' ability to read human body language was streaks ahead - that is the stuff that I find interesting, the lists are just the pop culture face of it to me. If the dog's brain has evolved to give it more ability to read people, losing some problem solving along the way, has a Kelpie's brain been selected for the ability to take direction well from a distance (as my Belgians were very good at too), whereas maybe another breed hasn't changed in that way because it didn't need to? I know a Borzoi's field of vision is a bit different to many breeds to suit its task in life, I wonder how deep the changes go. Edited April 12, 2011 by Diva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 I watched a TV segment the other day - maybe it was Catalyst? - which compared domestic dogs' problem solving to access food to a Dingo's. The Dingo won the day, but the dogs' ability to read human body language was streaks ahead - that is the stuff that I find interesting, the lists are just the meaningless pop culture face of it to me. ....which illustrates how 'intelligence' is better defined as 'adaptable behaviour'. It's the extent to which thinking/action can be shaped in order to carry out certain tasks. And these tasks will vary according to what's required to survive & thrive. For domestic dogs, it depends on their 'tuning in' to human 'signals'. For the dingo, it depends on their being totally self-sufficient within the natural environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diva Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 (edited) True Mita. The bit that really interests me is the physical changes to the brain structure, how the brain itself is shaped to gain the evolutionary advantage, and have we done the same to dogs' brains in the way we have selected for breed behavioural traits and physical skills - maybe more applicable for the really old distinct breeds than those developed in the last century or so, but interesting. It was kind of the point of the Catalyst segment - how different the domestic dogs' brains were to the Dingo's. I wonder if that is true between some breeds also, beyond the obvious things people quote like size etc, but down to brain structure. I might be getting a bit OT though, better butt out! Edited April 12, 2011 by Diva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koalathebear Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 I think that is the point most people are making Koala - most of us aren't aware of a standard accepted measure of canine intelligence, maybe it exists in the research world but if so I haven't stumbled across it. In many of the examples people have mentioned, the level of motivation for the dog to learn a behaviour and it's inherited behavioural preferences seem to me to a key - I think a good canine Houdini is probably intelligent given the problem solving it exhibits, but not necessarily more intelligent than the dog who stays in the yard, because the stay-at-home may just not be motivated to try and get out. Or maybe the Houdini just has higher levels of persistence and optimism to keep trying. By the way - I wasn't criticising the discussion I was just trying to make it a bit broader because some of the examples were a bit specific and it would be interesting to think about it over sets of general behaviours like escapism, language learning etc. What you say is very interesting because it makes me wonder if a dog is more intelligent if it comes 'pre-loaded with certain software' that give it an inherent advantage in terms of ability, or is it more intelligent if it is able to learn those skills and abilities after birth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diva Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 By the way - I wasn't criticising the discussion LOL, no I didn't think you were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 I watched a TV segment the other day - maybe it was Catalyst? - which compared domestic dogs' problem solving to access food to a Dingo's. The Dingo won the day, but the dogs' ability to read human body language was streaks ahead - that is the stuff that I find interesting, the lists are just the meaningless pop culture face of it to me. ....which illustrates how 'intelligence' is better defined as 'adaptable behaviour'. It's the extent to which thinking/action can be shaped in order to carry out certain tasks. And these tasks will vary according to what's required to survive & thrive. For domestic dogs, it depends on their 'tuning in' to human 'signals'. For the dingo, it depends on their being totally self-sufficient within the natural environment. This is sounding a lot like the debate in psychology about western definitions of intelligence compared to other cultural definitions of intelligence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mita Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 (edited) I watched a TV segment the other day - maybe it was Catalyst? - which compared domestic dogs' problem solving to access food to a Dingo's. The Dingo won the day, but the dogs' ability to read human body language was streaks ahead - that is the stuff that I find interesting, the lists are just the meaningless pop culture face of it to me. ....which illustrates how 'intelligence' is better defined as 'adaptable behaviour'. It's the extent to which thinking/action can be shaped in order to carry out certain tasks. And these tasks will vary according to what's required to survive & thrive. For domestic dogs, it depends on their 'tuning in' to human 'signals'. For the dingo, it depends on their being totally self-sufficient within the natural environment. This is sounding a lot like the debate in psychology about western definitions of intelligence compared to other cultural definitions of intelligence You're not wrong, Aidan. And it's not just western definition compared with other cultural definitions... it also applies to western sub-groups. Like middle-class bias. Even gets down as far as gender, re the differences between verbal & non-verbal components of traditional intelligence testing. With much debate around the issue if girl & boy babies/young children receive different 'learning environments' because the adults interact with them differently. I wonder if there's any evidence that pet owners interact differently with male & female puppies in domestic situations?????? Resulting in different behaviours? Now, all this is getting too, too deep. Happens when 'intelligence' pops up. Edited April 12, 2011 by mita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snout Girl Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 I 100% wholeheartedly agree with the list, seems very well researched and considered and it has nothing to do with the fact that I own a border collie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fleuri Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 I remember when mini Schnuazers where in the top ten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 I wonder if there's any evidence that pet owners interact differently with male & female puppies in domestic situations?????? Resulting in different behaviours? I've been wondering about the extent to which we infantilise dogs today, and what attributes cause us to do it. I think that would have a huge effect on how we interact, and I think appearances matter (not just age or behaviour). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jr_inoz Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 I think my sheltie justifies the breed's place on the list. She can problem solve. She got stuck inside one day, while the lawns were being mowed when I wasn't home. She is toilet trained, but was trained as a puppy on paper. She pulled paper out of the recycle tub in my kitchen so she could wee on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyliegirl Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 I think Echo forgot to attend this meeting when they announced this He is quite the opposite lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacqui835 Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 I think Echo forgot to attend this meeting when they announced this He is quite the opposite lol Poor Echo is only a baby though, give him time. My dobe was a slow developer mentally, but now he's a very clever, very sharp dog. I remember as a baby he was desperately keen to please but too dumb, then he got smarter but was no longer so concerned with my needs (teenager) and now finally he's becoming my perfect dog as he approaches adulthood (since they say male dobes aren't really mature until 3 years). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muttaburra Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Hmm, GRs are up pretty high. I must have a dud. Honey is so purdy, but, bless her, she's a bimbo. :D Me too, Im disappointed that JRTs arent on there, mine is too smart for her own good!!! Having now seen so many JRT's along with my own, one "Master of the Universe" and one "average", I can't understand why they aren't at the top of the list, along with Shelties, who should also be much higher than the list from the OP. Chi's also should be up there. I think some of the smarter dogs are a bit like cats, suit themselves sometimes, still trainable up to a point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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