mr.mister Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 Silver might be a dilute blue merle. Blue merle is usually black with merle. If you had a blue dog with merle it's solid bits would be blue so more errr silvery. Lilac is chocolate diluted. You don't see them around much but fairly easy to get that colour if you wanted to. That's a slate merle. I didn't say that silver was a correct term did I? I was suggesting what colour the puppy might actually be. Just making you aware that's all. Jakemon the wheatens I assume would be a light red - red can vary from quite a deep colour to a light cream. No BC should really be 'scatty' regardless of colour so that would probably be more to do with temperament and training. And as they are a colour they do tend to get cashed in on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 (edited) [Just making you aware that's all. Had I said 'slate merle' without explaining the actual dilution etc I imagine that some people would not have known what I was talking about. Edited April 10, 2011 by JulesP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pretty Miss Emma Posted April 10, 2011 Author Share Posted April 10, 2011 I hadn't heard of wheaten BC's!! I think maybe we should stick with recognised colours to make it all a bit easier!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 Wheaten is just an incorrect name for a red border collie. Although to be fair a lot of them do look more wheaten than red. Red is the correct name though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tay. Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 I don't think "lilac" is as attractive a colour as it sounds, More a muddy light brownish grey than anything remotely related to purple. Couldn't agree with you more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fynesse Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 The wheaton are what Im assuming looking like a caramal (I call them caramel, though know they are just a pale red) I adore them and originally that was what I wanted as I think they are so pretty, however, on looking around at decent breeders and parents that I like, the cheapest was $1500. My OH said a very firm NO to paying that for a pet! My BC goes to puppy school with one, lovely dog, though can be a bit scatty, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Q Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 (edited) I do think lilac's are actually quite pretty. Doesn't really look lilac though. I'd prefer a Black and white, black tri or choc and white though. Edited April 10, 2011 by B-Q Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystiqview Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 If you look at some overseas colours, they for a better term describe the merles as different "shades" I suppose. Terms like "Slate Merle", "Silver Merle" are just two. Here is one website: http://www.bryningbordercollies.com/Border-Collie-Colours As for "breeders" here not breeding merle. There are plenty enough around if you start looking. A lot more merles as they are becoming popular. As we cannot breed merle to merle (for deafness and blindness issues), one parent must be a solid colour and preferably not have another coat pattern (such as sable) or be an ee-red as that is a masking gene. By masking, the ee-red hides the merle coat pattern with a solid colour, but maybe genetically merle under neath. Danger there is the dog can be bred back to a merle dog, in effect breeding merle to merle genetically. The colours are becoming fashionable. First it was Chocolate because of "Toby the wonderdog" then the others are becoming more fashionable. Unfortunately, once a colour becomes a fashion, the unscrupulous breeders start breeding these colours because they can ask anything up to a $1000 more for the colour alone. The puppy itself may still be rubbish and have plenty of faults unsuspecting to the puppy buyer. In saying this, there are still plenty of black.white border collies who should not be bred either as they are just not good examples of the breed. Unfortunately once a breeder starts to focus on colour as their main objective, other more important factors are not considered so the quality slowly is degraded. In addition to this, it comes to the age old adage: Screw the price up until you get complaint. While there are idiots out there willing to pay their price, they will continue to breed and charge ridiculous amounts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inevitablue Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 My friend had 2 lovely reds, one year at Sydney Royal one bitch won the Open Agility and the other, younger bitch won the Open Jumping. They were definite reds, the wheatens I have seen really are the colour of straw. I was told it was a double recessive red gene that gave the colour and hence the weak temperament- could that be correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Q Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 my understanding is that red or "wheaten" are genetically the same colour, its like how goldens can come from deep red to almost white. I wish I had a better understanding of colour genetics, they fascinate me but I don't know very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pretty Miss Emma Posted April 10, 2011 Author Share Posted April 10, 2011 I wish I had a better understanding of colour genetics, they fascinate me but I don't know very much. Agree!!! I think my curiosity will get the better of me on all the different genetic variants - that's the science geek in me!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benshiva Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 Wheaten is NOT a colour, Caramel is NOT a colour They are red. Just plain old red. Sadly the shiesters breeding them can't ask a tonne of dollars for plain old red, but Wheaten or Caramel LOOK OUT!!! Open chequebook! Makes me soooooooooo mad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr.mister Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 (edited) As I said, red can vary - it can be a very deep colour or a very light straw. It is a recessive gene anyway, so that means all reds are recessive and for a dog to be red both its parents have to carry at least one copy of the gene. As Mystik said it is also a masking gene so a dog could be genetically black, or chocolate, but appear red because they have two copies of the red gene. You can sometimes tell a red dog's base colour by looking at their eye colour and lip and nose pigment. Colour should not have a bearing on the dog's temperament - unless I suppose it was a double merle (from a merle to merle mating) and had health issues causing it discomfort which made its temperament questionable. Wheaten is NOT a colour, Caramel is NOT a colour They are red. Just plain old red. Sadly the shiesters breeding them can't ask a tonne of dollars for plain old red, but Wheaten or Caramel LOOK OUT!!! Open chequebook! Makes me soooooooooo mad Couldn't agree more Mel. Edited April 10, 2011 by mr.mister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fynesse Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 Benshiva, I was in shock when I asked the price and was told $1500. I contacted another breeder and was told litter prices varied between 1200 & 1500 (depending on colour). I know people are willing to pay for good breeding and to have a show dog, but I just wanted a BC cause I think they are an awesome dog who would fit in with my lifestyle an thought the very pale red was very pretty, however, not THAT pretty! (I now have a choc tri, didnt cost me anywhere near that amount and he is still an awesome dog!!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr.mister Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 Breeders who charge more for different colours aren't really ethical, unfortunately. I can assure you with fairly steady confidence that none of those pups being sold for $1500 were show quality (not that show quality is the be all and end all at all for the Border), but what I mean to say is that they have no reason to charge so much for a coloured dog. A rose by any other name would still smell as sweet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 I had a look through the puppy pages and found what I assume was the listing mentioned.After looking at their website (and photos of puppies that were advertised as being "silver"), the colour looked to me like a blue merle that just had less patches of darker blue than the puppies that were marked as being blue merle. I then had a look at some of their adult dogs and.. there were a few dogs with the same mostly pale blue colour of the "silver" puppies. These were listed as being.. blue merle Safe to assume the silver is just blue merle. The breeder's motivation for advertising them as an unrecognised colour is anyones' guess. That breeder's only motivation is money. They breed large numbers of inferior quality coloured puppies just for the pet market and sell them at hugely inflated prices. They don't main register anything they don't keep, so can call the colours whatever they think will bring the biggest profit. They also have very little knowledge of colour genetics from some of the claims they have made in the past. The so called "silver" puppies in question are just ordinary blue merles. They are the only people I have ever heard refer to blue merle as silver. Solid blues are sometimes described as silver to distinguish the preferred pale silver blue from the darker blues but they are all still registered as blue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 Benshiva, I was in shock when I asked the price and was told $1500. I contacted another breeder and was told litter prices varied between 1200 & 1500 (depending on colour). I know people are willing to pay for good breeding and to have a show dog, but I just wanted a BC cause I think they are an awesome dog who would fit in with my lifestyle an thought the very pale red was very pretty, however, not THAT pretty! (I now have a choc tri, didnt cost me anywhere near that amount and he is still an awesome dog!!!) Ethical breeders of the best quality dogs sell them all for the same price regardless of colour. Most of the really top quality show puppies only sell for about $1000 so anyone charging $1500 is not an ethical breeder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystiqview Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 I had a look through the puppy pages and found what I assume was the listing mentioned.After looking at their website (and photos of puppies that were advertised as being "silver"), the colour looked to me like a blue merle that just had less patches of darker blue than the puppies that were marked as being blue merle. I then had a look at some of their adult dogs and.. there were a few dogs with the same mostly pale blue colour of the "silver" puppies. These were listed as being.. blue merle Safe to assume the silver is just blue merle. The breeder's motivation for advertising them as an unrecognised colour is anyones' guess. That breeder's only motivation is money. They breed large numbers of inferior quality coloured puppies just for the pet market and sell them at hugely inflated prices. They don't main register anything they don't keep, so can call the colours whatever they think will bring the biggest profit. They also have very little knowledge of colour genetics from some of the claims they have made in the past. The so called "silver" puppies in question are just ordinary blue merles. They are the only people I have ever heard refer to blue merle as silver. Solid blues are sometimes described as silver to distinguish the preferred pale silver blue from the darker blues but they are all still registered as blue. These breeder's also often "place" dogs in pet homes to get a litter back later. The dogs remain registered in the breeder's name to make it easier (and they don't have to pay transfer fees) to get the bitches back for litters later. In Qld, breeders are SUPPOSED to give the puppy buyer papers with their puppy. The papers must reflect where the dog resides and who it is owned by. I find it highly wrong to charge someone $1500 for a puppy only to expect it back for a litter later with no recompense back to the person who has looked after the puppy for the past 12 to 18 months. I know of somone who was in just a situation. I know we cannot keep everything we breed, but when a breeder stashes a pup somewhere for breeding later, it should be fair to the person who is going to look after the puppy for you. Unfortunately in Qld, there are more and more colour rip off breeders popping up. You just have to look at their websites and ads now in DOL to see they are only interested in money and have no idea about genetics or quality. If a dog has a willy or uterus, it is good enough to breed from. Unfortunately to advertise in the DOL breed pages, all you need is a CCC prefix. Nothing more. Some breeders just about have permanent ads up there all year round advertising up coming litters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fynesse Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 The problem is for people like me, that we have no real idea of what is really good and what isnt (who the decent/ethical breeders are). I would have thought that breeders registered on here would all have been decent, though Ive now discovered that isnt the case. Such a minefield!! Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted April 10, 2011 Share Posted April 10, 2011 The problem is for people like me, that we have no real idea of what is really good and what isnt (who the decent/ethical breeders are). I would have thought that breeders registered on here would all have been decent, though Ive now discovered that isnt the case. Such a minefield!!Cheers I wouldn't buy a oven without researching and getting reviews, word of mouth recommendations etc so it was the same when I got my first puppy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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