What Do You Mean By "excellent Temperament"?

[cowanbree]

I have often pondered how the drive for "good temperament" is changing my breed, not for the better in my opinion.

My standard reads reserved with strangers yet some breeders seem to be ignoring that and breeding for outgoing over friendly terrier type shelties. I actually think it is sad and not at all the type of sheltie I want to breed. My shelties are standoffish with strangers but once accepted into the family circle you are friends for life I don't breed to satisfy the people who want showing fools or the pet people that seem to want Lab temperament in a sheltie body.

[Gayle.]

My shelties are standoffish with strangers but once accepted into the family circle you are friends for life I don't breed to satisfy the people who want showing fools or the pet people that seem to want Lab temperament in a sheltie body.

This is how Dusty is. She is the most reserved of my dogs and the difference between her and Benson is evident from the moment a stranger arrives. They both bark but his bark is a happy, joyful "Oh look who's here, someone to play with, hi there, how are ya?"

Dusty is more like "Who goes there and what are you doing on MY property? Don't come any closer or I'll bark REALLY loud!"

But once she knows you, she's your best buddy. It might take a while and it needs to be on her terms, but once it's happened she never forgets.

When she was a little puppy she met DOLer Dee_al, who goes to the same obedience club as me and who has become my very good friend. Dusty doesn't see Dee_al very often these days, but I can always tell when she's arrived at the club because Dusty spots her in the car park and her bum starts to wiggle and by the time Dee_al gets to us, her whole body is wagging from side to side in absolute joy that her friend is here.

Although I think Benson has got a fabulous temperament, I prefer the slightly wary, stand-offish behaviour that is more correct in a lot of herding breeds. It is part of their heritage......protect the herd and allow the newcomer to prove their worth. Once the newcomer is accepted, all is right in their world.

[Crisovar]

I can't quite let it go though as I think some breed temperament traits may not be "the ideal" in a pet and what one does with pups in those first 8 weeks may determine outcome. If selling pups into pet homes there is a huge responsibility to provide or in fact breed a "pet quality dog". Now there's a notion!!

It is the responsibility of the breeder to only sell those pet pups to suitable homes that understand and can manage the breed traits.

I don't agree with dumbing down breeds for public consumption.

We have hundreds of lovely breeds it is the buying public who need to adjust their want dial and understand they may not be suitable owners for some breeds.

Edited April 9, 2011 by Crisovar

[Pillow]

I had not thought about this issue as dumbing down breeds for public consumption but understand the point clearly.

In current culture dogs are being thrust into dog parks and other very public places. Increasing numbers of people seem to believe their dog has a right to be there regardless of temperament, behaviour or lack of effective control.

Agree big responsibility rests with breeders to choose an appropriate home as an inappropriate new owner may not fully understand their responsibilities.

Could it be in some cases where 9 out of 10 pups are destined for pet homes, some breeders may just be asking too much from their original purpose bred dogs to fit the "pet" role. Or is it only incorrect handling and management on the owner's part? Pondering....

[Bjelkier]

I had not thought about this issue as dumbing down breeds for public consumption but understand the point clearly.

In current culture dogs are being thrust into dog parks and other very public places. Increasing numbers of people seem to believe their dog has a right to be there regardless of temperament, behaviour or lack of effective control.

Agree big responsibility rests with breeders to choose an appropriate home as an inappropriate new owner may not fully understand their responsibilities.

Could it be in some cases where 9 out of 10 pups are destined for pet homes, some breeders may just be asking too much from their original purpose bred dogs to fit the "pet" role. Or is it only incorrect handling and management on the owner's part? Pondering....

I think 95% of the time it's this.

People need to take responsibility with the breed they choose to buy, do the research, understand the breed and what it is an isn't capable to doing.

That being said breeders also need to be very careful about who they place their puppies with.

It does seem to me like it would be a dumbing down of breeds.

Why should the breed fancy suffer the loss of what makes their breeds special and different from other breeds becuase some pet people can't deal with one?

And would such a thing stop with temperment?

While we are at it lets breed coated breeds with shorter coats so people can look after them more easily, lets make giant breeds smaller so they can fit into a more suburban home ect......

I would hate to see some of the beautiful breeds of this world suffer the loss of their temperment to make them more 'user friendly'

[Cosmolo]

I also do not agree with the dumbing down of breeds- want a low drive dog (for example)? Choose a suitable breed but don't demand that another breed be altered to suit you. People also need to realise that in altering one quality you often unintentionally alter another. I see many examples where breeds are being altered for the 'pet market' and they don't end up any more suitable because of the knock on effects- eg, lower drive, weaker nerve. A good breeder can help to select the right pup within a litter bred true to temperament.

[mita]

'Temperament' is not the same as 'behavioral traits' that tend to be found in the same breed. 'Temperament' is a pattern of responsiveness that persists over time. Same as for people.

You can have 2 dogs from the same breed with similar behavioral traits but which have differences in temperament. And you can have 2 dogs from different breeds with similarities of temperament.

[Crisovar]

I had not thought about this issue as dumbing down breeds for public consumption but understand the point clearly.

In current culture dogs are being thrust into dog parks and other very public places. Increasing numbers of people seem to believe their dog has a right to be there regardless of temperament, behaviour or lack of effective control.

Agree big responsibility rests with breeders to choose an appropriate home as an inappropriate new owner may not fully understand their responsibilities.

Could it be in some cases where 9 out of 10 pups are destined for pet homes, some breeders may just be asking too much from their original purpose bred dogs to fit the "pet" role. Or is it only incorrect handling and management on the owner's part? Pondering....

Somewhere the buying public need to take responsibility.

It is not a Breeders responsibility to create "pets", it is the Breeders responsibility to breed, sound, healthy and true to the Breed Standard. If a Breed is such that it needs above and beyond what the average person can provide then so be it, they shouldn't own one.

Some people when it comes to choosing a suitable breed are just plain stupid, many are truly ignorant but stupidity and arrogance also come to play. Not every home is suitable for a dog full stop, the emphasis must be on choosing a breed that suits if indeed a dog is a suitable choice.

There are many breeds that I admire but am not in a place to own. Our consumer society need to realise that.

[Pillow]

"And would such a thing stop with temperment?

While we are at it lets breed coated breeds with shorter coats so people can look after them more easily, lets make giant breeds smaller so they can fit into a more suburban home ect......"

I understand your point. I could be wrong but haven't some breeds been adapted over time and now stand as a breed in their own right. Mini versions, breeds of different coat lengths etc. Also crossbreeding to achieve different breeds. It's not alien to the purebred world.

Let alone all the cross breeding that appears to be done these days and sold under the banner as improving on the orignal breed or breeeding for purposebred pets. A brilliant marketing job!!

Don't misunderstand me though. I wouldn't want any changes made to my breed of choice and appreciate that others feel the same way. I do however believe if we are putting dogs into pet homes it is a responsibility to provide a dog that is truly suited to that environment and purpose.

[Esky the husky]

I hate hate hate the idea of a dog without the correct temperament!

I don't want an Aussie Shepherd with that acts like a husky.

If I've done all my research and picked the dog thats right for me I want that dog.

I want the whole package; I want a whole border collie, not a dog that resembles a border collie.

[Pillow]

Temperament influences behaviour "but is not the same as behavioural traits". Very clearly said thank-you. I understand this but still thinking through this one to be very clear in my mind.

A very simple example below. Tell me if I am understanding correctly.

Breed standard lists Temperament under CHARACTERISTICS and characteristic is described in behaviourable terms for example...inexhaustable energy.

2 dogs from the same litter may demonstrate that characteristic but temperament can be very different. Temperament is what influences this dog's behaviour with regard to inexhaustable energy. Eg if the characteristic is not satisfied one may be destructive and noisy, frustration may lead to aggressive responses. The other may be introverted, flat and depressed and not bond with owner.

Poor example but am I understanding correctly? If so this breed may not be best matched as a pet. But there are many people who love and breed this dog and most go into pet homes because where else do they go when the breeder runs one or two on and is left with pups. What is the ethical thing to do in these circumstances? Breed dogs with lower drive and needs? That may need the breed standard to be changed at some time, LOL Or rest responsibility on the pet owner's to have made a good choice?

[Greytmate]

Temperament influences behaviour "but is not the same as behavioural traits". Very clearly said thank-you. I understand this but still thinking through this one to be very clear in my mind.

A very simple example below. Tell me if I am understanding correctly.

Breed standard lists Temperament under CHARACTERISTICS and characteristic is described in behaviourable terms for example...inexhaustable energy.

2 dogs from the same litter may demonstrate that characteristic but temperament can be very different. Temperament is what influences this dog's behaviour with regard to inexhaustable energy. Eg if the characteristic is not satisfied one may be destructive and noisy, frustration may lead to aggressive responses. The other may be introverted, flat and depressed and not bond with owner.

Poor example but am I understanding correctly? If so this breed may not be best matched as a pet. But there are many people who love and breed this dog and most go into pet homes because where else do they go when the breeder runs one or two on and is left with pups. What is the ethical thing to do in these circumstances? Breed dogs with lower drive and needs? That may need the breed standard to be changed at some time, LOL Or rest responsibility on the pet owner's to have made a good choice?

It's a good example. It highlights that the behaviour a dog may show can be a reaction to a certain 'thing', and that reaction can depend more on the dog's inherent temperament than it does on what the 'thing' is.

[Pillow]

Gotcha, thanks Greytmate. Lots and lots of handling and interaction with puppies to determine temperament before saying yes to a puppy home. So, as I have thought and taken on - responsibility really rests with breeder.