I Desperately Need Your Advice!

[cavNrott]

I did say I was uncomfortable using the tying up thing and I asked if there were any other exercises and she actually got really defensive and didnt give me any other options? I just dont want to tie them up until I know whether or not it is the right approach.

If she gave you no other option, maybe she doesn't know any other option. I would not tie my dog up irrespective of what any trainer told me to do and no trainer has suggested it. If they did I would flat out refuse. I understand that dogs on rurual properties are chained at night but my dogs live inside the house. There's no reason to tie them out. I don't tie them outside shops. None of them has ever been tied up.

I have well behaved, obedient dogs (apart from my little deaf dog who's a bit of a ratbag) without having been tied up. The commands my deaf girl learned before she went deaf she obeys. If I tied her out she would harm herself trying to get to me or inside the house. Tying her would stress her out.

Whether or not it makes the dog uncomfortable isn't the issue. If it makes you uncomfortable then this method of training is not for you and it will be evident in your body language. The dog will pick up on this very quickly.

[pixie_meg]

Not sure about the tying up bit but the rest is similar to what we did. Removing the affection wont be forever. just remember that.

She may have sounded defensive because many people find it difficult to make the changes and i'm sure they've had people back away from some of the harder methods. Still should let them know you're uncomfortable and they should be able to explain their methods.

[korbin13]

I haven't heard of tethering but I do know of people who have been advised to use the long stay. They have had success with this in conjunction with NILIF. They now swear by it.

[Rebanne]

I haven't heard of tethering but I do know of people who have been advised to use the long stay. They have had success with this in conjunction with NILIF. They now swear by it.

yes I have heard of people using a long down but not a stay as such. Just gently made to lie down again each time they get up, used to teach self control and settling. Start off in the commercial breaks and work up to an hour long TV program was how I have heard it taught. personally I found clicker training to go to your bed worked on my dogs.

[persephone]

If I tied her out she would harm herself trying to get to me or inside the house. Tying her would stress her out.

I was thinking more along the lines of having a dog attached to a chair/couch/wall hook, by a lead indoors.I had not thought of the trainer meaning take the dog to the backyard and put it on a chain .

When training Guide Dogs.. all puppies/dogs were taught this ..and it became second nature for them. When working, they were pretty much always on lead- and attached to a person/piece of furniture etc.

[sas]

I'd first reccomend you contact the trainer and clarify the affection bit, because if she doesn't want you to give any affection for 2 weeks then you're not going to be able to do it, you're a humaniser so there's no way you're not going to be able to give any affection for 2 weeks.

There's no valid reason to ignore for 2 weeks anyhow. Ignoring is a great tool when used correctly, it can take the pressure off stressed dogs - Jan Fennels methods include the ignore, however they are based on 24 hour periods and after each 24 hour period you give the dog the option of obiding and if they don't then they go on another 24 hour ignore.

If it's NILIF that she means then that's great, give all the love attention you want on YOUR terms i.e. call the dog to you, ask it to do something and give love and attention, DONT walk past the dog and give it a free pat or the head or treat for doing nothing.

Tethering....nothing wrong with teaching your dog to relax on a tether, could even be handly in the future. Tethering is used as part of K9 Pro's TOT program, I'd actually reccomend you do that program because I think it would be really beneficial to your family and your dogs.

I doubt your dog will be 'relaxed' initially. And never tether your dog when you can't see them, stressed dogs can get tangled and seriously hurt, there is a method to tethering at the right height etc.

I wish you all the best of luck and I know right now everything seems too hard and emotional but you will get there....I'm not sure a Franchise with one method fits all training is the way to go personaly.

Edited April 8, 2011 by MEH

[aussielover]

If I tied her out she would harm herself trying to get to me or inside the house. Tying her would stress her out.

I was thinking more along the lines of having a dog attached to a chair/couch/wall hook, by a lead indoors.I had not thought of the trainer meaning take the dog to the backyard and put it on a chain .

When training Guide Dogs.. all puppies/dogs were taught this ..and it became second nature for them. When working, they were pretty much always on lead- and attached to a person/piece of furniture etc.

Yes we were recommended to do this by both guide dog trainers and my dogs puppy school trainer. My puppy grew up accompanying me pretty much everywhere and adjusted to being tied up really quickly. She immediately relaxes and rests when she is tied up because she knows that's what has to happen.

Here she is tied up at work- relaxed and happy:

I don't think this looks particularly cruel....

I think you need to do it under supervision though. At least one person should always be in the room watching the dog or regularly checking on them. Adult dogs who aren't used to this can panic and injure themselves.

I wouldn't stress about it too much, but if you find it too stressful, then don't do it Perhaps you could use a crate or something?

I totally agree with the food- I would only ever leave the food down for a max of 30 mins.

[lovemesideways]

I wouldn't go near any DogTech trainer with a 10 foot pole if you paid me millions, and no way in hell would I let them anywhere near my dogs.

I'm going to assume that there are going to be Some decent trainers, for such a large franchise. But the "trainers" we have in this area who use the DogTech name are completely horrid. Unless I got a number of recommendations for a specific trainer I wouldn't trust them, simply due to the name.

One of my friends has a neighbour who called out DogTech for their small Poodle mix. After DogTechs "training" of screaming at him, throwing things, heavily correcting whenever he is on a lead, amongst a whole bunch of other techniques. He has now gone from barking at the fence and other dogs, to vicious snarling, attacking the fence, literally trying to dig his under it. He's bit his owners repeatedly and they're afraid of him now. Whoever thinks throwing things at a anxious, scared dog is going to fix anything should be smacked over the head.

Another lady I know called them out, she is now considering dumping her Samoyed mix at the pound because she's terrified of him after he bit her over a piece of meat.

I cannot say anything for your particular trainer, but I personally would wait to see Steve, and unless you have personal recommendations for this trainer, I wouldn't trust them simply because they're DogTech.

[Tilly]

Maybe the trainer was using the tied up as a time out type thing.

When my guys were puppies they had times when they went completely mental with excitement ... so they got crate time and were only let out again when they had calmed down.

Even now ... occassionally they get time out when they have been told not to do something and they continue as soon as my back is turned.

[fifi]

We use giant crates for quiet time training, and we NEVER, EVER, EVER tie dogs up. I used to stake mine out at shows many years ago, but now only ever use crates or our van. Seen to many tie up accidents.

Ours all learn that giant crates are a den, and especially when they are youngsters learn that there are treats and soft blankets to enjoy, while we can safely get stuff done around the house.

fifi

[Christina]

Quite simple really. It is your dog & if you don't want to tie it up then don't.

You have paid the person for advice. Whether you take it or not is your choice.

No one way is the right way for training all dogs. Some respond well to a certain way & some respond better to other ways.

You have to feel comfortable with whatever way you do it.

I can't see anything wrong with being affectionate with your dog, I cuddle & fuss my lot heaps, but if you completely ruin it, are not consistent in making it obey you & making the rules clear & your dog understanding your requirements, you are not going to be able to do anything with it. Maybe this particular trainer is not right for you.

[frufru]

When I read this post I thought same principles as TOT and NILIF. If your dogs don't respect you and you want this to change you you need to change what you do. If you are unclear about how to impliment what the trainer has suggested - contact them! None of the things the trainer has suggested are harsh or very different to what many other trainers suggest. Teaching a dog to lie quietly on a tie down is no harsher than teaching it to crate. If you give your dog kisses and cuddles for free why should it respect you???? Dogs should be pleasant to live with not rule the house and cause dissent.

Edited April 9, 2011 by frufru

[gwenneth1]

One of my friends has a neighbour who called out DogTech for their small Poodle mix. After DogTechs "training" of screaming at him, throwing things, heavily correcting whenever he is on a lead, amongst a whole bunch of other techniques. He has now gone from barking at the fence and other dogs, to vicious snarling, attacking the fence, literally trying to dig his under it. He's bit his owners repeatedly and they're afraid of him now. Whoever thinks throwing things at a anxious, scared dog is going to fix anything should be smacked over the head.

Ditto, I saw a similar situation in a showground area with a "Professional Trainer" and a client with a large Rottie. Everything about this trainer was aggressive, the way he talked (loud, clipped tones), walked, gestured-all of it projected non stop on to this dog, who from where I was sitting was a strong, happy boisterous dog with an owner who both needed help. Needless to say, watching the session was not disimilar to watching a head on collision in slow motion. Hanging a shingle out proclaiming expertise doesn't make one an expert. I've had the pleasure of watching a couple of people working different dogs and the way they can individualise 'training' to suit the dog at the time and know when/how to apply things is amazing. I think people like that are definitely gifted, I wish I had that gift for sure. I find it curious that BOTH your dogs are having the same 'technique' applied, are they identical in nature and behaviour?

As far as tying up, I do with my dogs for short periods, if I'm entering an area , say, Stallion's paddock, it is safer for me and them to be tied out side. Since I'm not 100% confident of the sit-stay working for a longer period of ten minutes, a short tie up is safest and my dogs are quite happy/tracatable at the time.

The "no free pats" regime-who knows with your dogs. I have a couple that are by my definition 'spoilt' and become more eager to please, another goes better on being made to 'work' for a pat.

I agree with assertions by many that extended periods of tying/chaining a dog leads to potential territorial/aggression issues from what I have seen in the past on my family's farm, although I don't think that was what the DogTech trainer was suggesting. I would happily go to somebody with a talent/gift for training to learn as much as I could, but it's sepearting those who've read a little bit of Milan or other books and think they're an expert which is the problem because of the potential for screwing up a dog's mind. I frequently read forums/discussions on DOL and other sites, because sometimes you read of a recommended and praised 'trainer' (not in my state, as this one turned out to be) or even glean some helpful information.

[Erny]

When I read this post I thought same principles as TOT and NILIF. If your dogs don't respect you and you want this to change you you need to change what you do. If you are unclear about how to impliment what the trainer has suggested - contact them! None of the things the trainer has suggested are harsh or very different to what many other trainers suggest. Teaching a dog to lie quietly on a tie down is no harsher than teaching it to crate. If you give your dog kisses and cuddles for free why should it respect you???? Dogs should be pleasant to live with not rule the house and cause dissent.

That's what needs to be clarified. What methods have been prescribed to teach the dog to relax on a tether? Also - is it NILIF the trainer is prescribing, or is it total withdrawal of attention for 2 weeks (save for feeding and general care)? FruFru - you are assuming these things are being taught in the way and manner you understand they should be. Conversely, we can't assume that this is not what was intended.

If the methods are as harsh as what I know these can be, then I don't agree that "many other trainers suggest" these. But it is up to the OP to gain clarity to exactly what and how the trainer seeks to apply these things.

Edited April 9, 2011 by Erny

[Leelaa17]

By "give them no affection" was the trainer refering to NILIF?

If so it's certainly not bad advice.

Have a read of this too http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=64101 ;)

I'm pretty sure they don't mean this.

DogTech area franchise and I believe this is one of their stock standard measures. Personally, I'd never go to a franchise that people have bought into without doing something like the NDTF course.

Leelaa - If I haven't confused you with someone else, I believe you're waiting to see Steve from ProK9? If I was in your position, I'd wait until I saw him before I tried something. Trying lots of different things can often lead to a very confused dog. Dogs also tend to pick up when we aren't convinced of what we're doing - they can be manipulative little sh*ts!

So, I'd do some trick training and games at home, some on lead walks, no dog parks etc until I saw someone that I could trust and I'd follow their advice 100%. If I felt uncomfortable with it I'd ask them for reasons etc.

FWIW, I do agree that it is important not to humanise a dog. Dogs don't need lots of cuddles and "aaww,,,snooky pookies". They need exercise and rules. And then some affection.

The ignore method worked very well for me, but I had a dog that had come straight from being bred at a puppy farm. She was terrified of all people and ignoring her helped take the pressure off.

ETA: If Erny is reading this, I realise the irony of me saying that dogs don't need lots of "awww....snooky pookies" ;)

A friend's housemate had Dogtech out to her dog at least 10 years ago. Anxiety and human aggro was the issue. Tethering was one of the things suggested to her back then too. My friend, whose dog had no particular issue, was instructed the same thing.

I'm not sure how tethering increases relaxation but I can see how it would be handy to teach your dog to relax when on tether.

There is a difference between withdrawing all attention -vs- withholding attention and giving it only on your own terms (ie when the dog does something for you first .... which is to a good extent NILIF).

Withholding attention completely (save for feeding the dog and generally only doing what you must do for the dog's physical health - but this does not include walks though) is IMO a pretty harsh technique. I have used it once or twice for aggro towards family members, but carefully.

So perhaps you have misunderstood your trainer and maybe it is the "ignore and give attention on your terms and not where your dog can perceive to have instigated or demanded it" ??? If that's the case, I can see the value in that.

With the older dogs - how old are they?

Are they in good health?

What do yo mean by "hassle"?

I havent finished reading all your comments yet but I want to thank everyone for their advice. You have all been so helpful.

Over the weekend my dad tied max and Jen up for about 10 minutes (at separate times) - Jenna whined because thats just what she does but we ignored her (we normally do anyway) and max just sort of sat there and waited for us to come back. it didnt seem to stress them out at all.

I have also been showing them less affection (absolutely no affection if they havent done anything for me) a- so when I ask them to sit or I asked them to do something then I pat them on the head.

When they come up and try to nuzzle me or give me kisses I completely ignore them and then when they walk away I call them back and give them a pat (because its on my terms?).

to Erny: Older dogs are 16yo and 14yo

they are in REASONABLY good health... I mean they arent dying but they are very old - one has dementia. (the 16yo)

and when I say hassle I mean jenna will chase them when they walk somewhere, she will paw them and try to (even though she DOES do it very gently) play with them.

to megan: yes I do still want to see steve. I am waiting because I want the dogs to get trained a little more before I get Jennas behaviour OUTSIDE of them home assessed.

Thank you all again. you have been so very helpful.!!!!!

[Odin-Genie]

Hi Leelaa17, I do cuddle my dogs a lot and I frequently have one dog sleeping with his head on my arm, the other holding my arm with her paw :D . If anyone told me not to cuddle my dogs for two weeks or show them any affection, I'll tell them to get lost . Someone I know had this suggested to them by these DogTech people, and this dog wasn't even a problem.

However, I do practice tying up my dogs (always supervised). We usually do this when we are away from home, sitting in a park, having a picnic etc. They weren't relaxed initially but now have no issues. This makes it so convenient to take them out to cafes and restaurants with us. I also think it is important for the dogs to know how to relax and sit quietly.

[CBL]

I had dogtech come out to us when we first got Oscar as crate-training wasn't working. Instead of helping me with my problem she focused on our other dog and told me he was highly anxious - something he most definitely is not. She was big on the tethering inside trick as well. When she left I thought I had this dog with massive problems (and not the one I sought help for), but after I sat and thought about it I realised that I didn't and I simply disregarded her advice.